Just curious as to how the oil flows in a filter. I always thought it went through the media but now i am hearing it may just pass across it and not through it.
Oil Flow pattern in filter
- Thread starter spk2000
- Start date
- Status
It goes in through the small holes then through the media and out the large center hole.
You may be thinking of the oil going across the media when a dome end bypass is open?
You may be thinking of the oil going across the media when a dome end bypass is open?
^^^^
Byapasses are made to open when the pressure differential reaches a certain point (for example 12 psi) to protect the media from damage or destruction and to ensure the engine is not oil starved. This could occur for example during a cold start with very thick oil. The bypass opens to protect the media and allow the overly thick oil into the engine anyway, better to be unfiltered for a moment than no oil in the engine.
This is thought to be a fairly rare occurrence. A properly functioning filter under almost all circumstances will indeed be running all the oil through the filter media.
Byapasses are made to open when the pressure differential reaches a certain point (for example 12 psi) to protect the media from damage or destruction and to ensure the engine is not oil starved. This could occur for example during a cold start with very thick oil. The bypass opens to protect the media and allow the overly thick oil into the engine anyway, better to be unfiltered for a moment than no oil in the engine.
This is thought to be a fairly rare occurrence. A properly functioning filter under almost all circumstances will indeed be running all the oil through the filter media.
I don't know what it is about the inlet holes but I have a "thing" about the size. I like to see BIG holes like on Fram Ultra, M1, etc rather than the small ones like in Pur One.
Yeah, I Know, Pur One prob outsell all the rest, but it still bothers me! Just one of my many quirks.
Yeah, I Know, Pur One prob outsell all the rest, but it still bothers me! Just one of my many quirks.
dnewton3
Staff member
The inlet holes on about ANY filter are WAY bigger than necessary.
Most filters are flow rated at 7-12 gpm, just depending upon specific issues.
They are also capable of flowing about 2x (as as generalization) more than the engine needs.
So the size of the holes is moot. You might sleep better at night, picking the filter with the biggest holes, but your engine won't know the difference at all whatsoever.
Most filters are flow rated at 7-12 gpm, just depending upon specific issues.
They are also capable of flowing about 2x (as as generalization) more than the engine needs.
So the size of the holes is moot. You might sleep better at night, picking the filter with the biggest holes, but your engine won't know the difference at all whatsoever.
Last edited:
There is a good diagram of oil flow on the first page of this pdf. Depicts both dome-ended and gasket-ended bypass valves.
http://www.bullittarchive.com/5000/5003/Oil_Filter_Cut-Away_Comparison_Kit.pdf
And don't worry, those holes are big enough. We could start debating however what pattern of holes on the center tube is most effective - spiral design or straight lines.
http://www.bullittarchive.com/5000/5003/Oil_Filter_Cut-Away_Comparison_Kit.pdf
And don't worry, those holes are big enough. We could start debating however what pattern of holes on the center tube is most effective - spiral design or straight lines.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
There is a good diagram of oil flow on the first page of this pdf. Depicts both dome-ended and gasket-ended bypass valves.
http://www.bullittarchive.com/5000/5003/Oil_Filter_Cut-Away_Comparison_Kit.pdf
And don't worry, those holes are big enough. We could start debating however what pattern of holes on the center tube is most effective - spiral design or straight lines.
"Aftermarket filter media is not designed to meet Ford's requirements and the media area is typically smaller"
"Internal pressure relief valve at inlet" quote from Ford
Is there any other filter manufactured like the FL820-S?
Even Purolator, the outsourcing manufacturer, Does not make their branded filters for this application like the MotorCraft.
I would like greater efficiency even if I have to change the filter sooner but it seems there is no better design than OEM at any price for the Modular V8's.
Can anyone refute this logic?
There is a good diagram of oil flow on the first page of this pdf. Depicts both dome-ended and gasket-ended bypass valves.
http://www.bullittarchive.com/5000/5003/Oil_Filter_Cut-Away_Comparison_Kit.pdf
And don't worry, those holes are big enough. We could start debating however what pattern of holes on the center tube is most effective - spiral design or straight lines.
"Aftermarket filter media is not designed to meet Ford's requirements and the media area is typically smaller"
"Internal pressure relief valve at inlet" quote from Ford
Is there any other filter manufactured like the FL820-S?
Even Purolator, the outsourcing manufacturer, Does not make their branded filters for this application like the MotorCraft.
I would like greater efficiency even if I have to change the filter sooner but it seems there is no better design than OEM at any price for the Modular V8's.
Can anyone refute this logic?
dnewton3
Staff member
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
But there is a lot of hooey in that document. Not all of it is bad, but much of it is just marketing hype and silliness.
Take this one quote:
"Aftermarket filter media is not designed to meet Ford's requirements and the media area is typically smaller"
Talk about a HUGE, MASSIVE generalization statement.
Are they saying that all aftermarket filters are not designed to meet Ford's criteria? As if every filter from Purolator, Fram, Amsoil, Baldwin, Donaldson, Wix, Champion, etc is simply inferior? In particular, the Wix compares nearly identically or even "better", except for the spring (Wix is a coil, which some folks even prefer ...). Others are very well made too.
Motorcraft makes a nice filter, for a very good price point. But it's not superior to every other option out there by any means. I would agree that some filters are inferior, and others are superior, but this topic (like most) is too complicated to cast a huge net over and think you're going to capture all items with equal efficacy.
But there is a lot of hooey in that document. Not all of it is bad, but much of it is just marketing hype and silliness.
Take this one quote:
"Aftermarket filter media is not designed to meet Ford's requirements and the media area is typically smaller"
Talk about a HUGE, MASSIVE generalization statement.
Are they saying that all aftermarket filters are not designed to meet Ford's criteria? As if every filter from Purolator, Fram, Amsoil, Baldwin, Donaldson, Wix, Champion, etc is simply inferior? In particular, the Wix compares nearly identically or even "better", except for the spring (Wix is a coil, which some folks even prefer ...). Others are very well made too.
Motorcraft makes a nice filter, for a very good price point. But it's not superior to every other option out there by any means. I would agree that some filters are inferior, and others are superior, but this topic (like most) is too complicated to cast a huge net over and think you're going to capture all items with equal efficacy.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
But there is a lot of hooey in that document. Not all of it is bad, but much of it is just marketing hype and silliness.
Take this one quote:
"Aftermarket filter media is not designed to meet Ford's requirements and the media area is typically smaller"
Talk about a HUGE, MASSIVE generalization statement.
Are they saying that all aftermarket filters are not designed to meet Ford's criteria? As if every filter from Purolator, Fram, Amsoil, Baldwin, Donaldson, Wix, Champion, etc is simply inferior? In particular, the Wix compares nearly identically or even "better", except for the spring (Wix is a coil, which some folks even prefer ...). Others are very well made too.
Motorcraft makes a nice filter, for a very good price point. But it's not superior to every other option out there by any means. I would agree that some filters are inferior, and others are superior, but this topic (like most) is too complicated to cast a huge net over and think you're going to capture all items with equal efficacy.
Kinda like Hyundia/KIA issuing TSB's for "All Models" over aftermarket filters causing engine nock, when it really only pertains to a few spin on canister filters that don't work well for some reason on certain models. But they don't hesitate to throw all aftermarket filters under the bus and are happy to throw cartridge filter vehicles into the TSB as well.
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
But there is a lot of hooey in that document. Not all of it is bad, but much of it is just marketing hype and silliness.
Take this one quote:
"Aftermarket filter media is not designed to meet Ford's requirements and the media area is typically smaller"
Talk about a HUGE, MASSIVE generalization statement.
Are they saying that all aftermarket filters are not designed to meet Ford's criteria? As if every filter from Purolator, Fram, Amsoil, Baldwin, Donaldson, Wix, Champion, etc is simply inferior? In particular, the Wix compares nearly identically or even "better", except for the spring (Wix is a coil, which some folks even prefer ...). Others are very well made too.
Motorcraft makes a nice filter, for a very good price point. But it's not superior to every other option out there by any means. I would agree that some filters are inferior, and others are superior, but this topic (like most) is too complicated to cast a huge net over and think you're going to capture all items with equal efficacy.
Kinda like Hyundia/KIA issuing TSB's for "All Models" over aftermarket filters causing engine nock, when it really only pertains to a few spin on canister filters that don't work well for some reason on certain models. But they don't hesitate to throw all aftermarket filters under the bus and are happy to throw cartridge filter vehicles into the TSB as well.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
DN3, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do while at FORD?
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
DN3, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do while at FORD?
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
DN3, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do while at FORD?
16 years of various stuff in managment, including supervison of various machining and assembly operations, as well as many years of maintenance. That includes everything from daily production machine oversight, to complete remanufacturing of million-dollar pieces of equipment, to the total 1.8 million sq-ft facility including HVAC, powerhouse, waste treatment, etc. Did lots of UOAs and vibration analysis and thermal analysis on everything from bearings to gearboxes to multi-million dollar turbine air compressors, etc, etc. PM programs were my life for quite a while. Also oversaw the fork-truck and maintenance garrage for the facility when I was "off shift" (nights) for a while. I also taught both Confined Space Rescue and Heights/High Angle Rescue for our on-site ERT (emergency response team). Even earned my Indiana Firefighter I & II certificates while there because we had first-response firetrucks (which we maintained)! In 16 years I'd probably worked in 90% of the plant in some capacity or another. I think about the only thing I didn't do was HR, supply-chain and finance type stuff.
I also have 17 years of law enforcement as a fully sworn Deputy (still currently serve on weekends).
I might be rude, opinionated, demanding, overly inquisitive, terse, giddy, talkative and a whole host of other undesirable things. But lazy I'm not ...
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
DN3, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do while at FORD?
16 years of various stuff in managment, including supervison of various machining and assembly operations, as well as many years of maintenance. That includes everything from daily production machine oversight, to complete remanufacturing of million-dollar pieces of equipment, to the total 1.8 million sq-ft facility including HVAC, powerhouse, waste treatment, etc. Did lots of UOAs and vibration analysis and thermal analysis on everything from bearings to gearboxes to multi-million dollar turbine air compressors, etc, etc. PM programs were my life for quite a while. Also oversaw the fork-truck and maintenance garrage for the facility when I was "off shift" (nights) for a while. I also taught both Confined Space Rescue and Heights/High Angle Rescue for our on-site ERT (emergency response team). Even earned my Indiana Firefighter I & II certificates while there because we had first-response firetrucks (which we maintained)! In 16 years I'd probably worked in 90% of the plant in some capacity or another. I think about the only thing I didn't do was HR, supply-chain and finance type stuff.
I also have 17 years of law enforcement as a fully sworn Deputy (still currently serve on weekends).
I might be rude, opinionated, demanding, overly inquisitive, terse, giddy, talkative and a whole host of other undesirable things. But lazy I'm not ...
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The inlet holes on about ANY filter are WAY bigger than necessary.
Most filters are flow rated at 7-12 gpm, just depending upon specific issues.
They are also capable of flowing about 2x (as as generalization) more than the engine needs.
So the size of the holes is moot. You might sleep better at night, picking the filter with the biggest holes, but your engine won't know the difference at all whatsoever.
Thanks for the feedback....even if you did blow my theory of big holes being better! LOL.
And I slept an hour later this morn, undoubtedly due to the above info.
The inlet holes on about ANY filter are WAY bigger than necessary.
Most filters are flow rated at 7-12 gpm, just depending upon specific issues.
They are also capable of flowing about 2x (as as generalization) more than the engine needs.
So the size of the holes is moot. You might sleep better at night, picking the filter with the biggest holes, but your engine won't know the difference at all whatsoever.
Thanks for the feedback....even if you did blow my theory of big holes being better! LOL.
And I slept an hour later this morn, undoubtedly due to the above info.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
DN3, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do while at FORD?
16 years of various stuff in managment, including supervison of various machining and assembly operations, as well as many years of maintenance. That includes everything from daily production machine oversight, to complete remanufacturing of million-dollar pieces of equipment, to the total 1.8 million sq-ft facility including HVAC, powerhouse, waste treatment, etc. Did lots of UOAs and vibration analysis and thermal analysis on everything from bearings to gearboxes to multi-million dollar turbine air compressors, etc, etc. PM programs were my life for quite a while. Also oversaw the fork-truck and maintenance garrage for the facility when I was "off shift" (nights) for a while. I also taught both Confined Space Rescue and Heights/High Angle Rescue for our on-site ERT (emergency response team). Even earned my Indiana Firefighter I & II certificates while there because we had first-response firetrucks (which we maintained)! In 16 years I'd probably worked in 90% of the plant in some capacity or another. I think about the only thing I didn't do was HR, supply-chain and finance type stuff.
I also have 17 years of law enforcement as a fully sworn Deputy (still currently serve on weekends).
I might be rude, opinionated, demanding, overly inquisitive, terse, giddy, talkative and a whole host of other undesirable things. But lazy I'm not ...
Very impressive.
Not that I didn't before but now I can follow your advice with a better point of view. For example;If you think ST oil is just as good to use as any other brand then ST it is.
Thanx DN3, for answering my Q?. I look forward to reading more of your input on this site.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I have a soft-spot for Ford; my dad retired from Ford and I worked there for 16 years.
DN3, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do while at FORD?
16 years of various stuff in managment, including supervison of various machining and assembly operations, as well as many years of maintenance. That includes everything from daily production machine oversight, to complete remanufacturing of million-dollar pieces of equipment, to the total 1.8 million sq-ft facility including HVAC, powerhouse, waste treatment, etc. Did lots of UOAs and vibration analysis and thermal analysis on everything from bearings to gearboxes to multi-million dollar turbine air compressors, etc, etc. PM programs were my life for quite a while. Also oversaw the fork-truck and maintenance garrage for the facility when I was "off shift" (nights) for a while. I also taught both Confined Space Rescue and Heights/High Angle Rescue for our on-site ERT (emergency response team). Even earned my Indiana Firefighter I & II certificates while there because we had first-response firetrucks (which we maintained)! In 16 years I'd probably worked in 90% of the plant in some capacity or another. I think about the only thing I didn't do was HR, supply-chain and finance type stuff.
I also have 17 years of law enforcement as a fully sworn Deputy (still currently serve on weekends).
I might be rude, opinionated, demanding, overly inquisitive, terse, giddy, talkative and a whole host of other undesirable things. But lazy I'm not ...
Very impressive.
Not that I didn't before but now I can follow your advice with a better point of view. For example;If you think ST oil is just as good to use as any other brand then ST it is.
Thanx DN3, for answering my Q?. I look forward to reading more of your input on this site.
dnewton3
Staff member
Quote:
For example;If you think ST oil is just as good to use as any other brand then ST it is.
To think something is fine. To know it is better.
And I want to confess right here and now that I don't know everything. But that is why I challenge others, and even myself, to be able to PROVE what is claimed.
There are many times I'm wrong. I have been corrected by folks like Pablo and M37Charlie among others. And I don't mind being corrected when the proof is credible. Typically where I fail is deep chemistry type things; just never has been my strong suit. I can regurgitate what I hear, but I struggle to internalize them. However, I don't have to be a chemist to see UOA results, and be able to digest them. In my current job (7 years now) I do statistical process quality control; data collection and processing is my work life. I make product quality decisions every day based upon ROI. Risk, exposure, return; it's all in a day's data stream! In short, I cannot tell you why polymers do this, and alkyloids do that, blah-blah-blah. But I can tell you with certainty how the outputs are affected; how wear metals and such respond to products in use.
If you've seen some of my UOAs, you can see where I show how well some "basic" products can hold up, even under what most people would call "extreme" and "severe" conditions. Recent exmaples would be my use of ST dino oil for 10k miles; excellent UOA. My use of dino 10w-30 Rotella in a very harsh exposure to 6.5k miles of pulling a travel trailer in the mountains and heat of UT and AZ in summer; fantastic UOA.
When I claim something, I can typically back it up with evidence and personal experience.
I'm also full of opinions, but I'll acknowledge them as such.
So, yes, I not only "think" ST fluids are fine, I'm convinced as such by both macro-analysis and personal UOA data.
There are limits to any product, and at some point ST lubes may fail where a premium lube might succeed. Won't know that until we test them in some specific circumstance and let the data speak. But as a generalization, I see the ST fluids more than capable for what most folks are going to put them through.
For example;If you think ST oil is just as good to use as any other brand then ST it is.
To think something is fine. To know it is better.
And I want to confess right here and now that I don't know everything. But that is why I challenge others, and even myself, to be able to PROVE what is claimed.
There are many times I'm wrong. I have been corrected by folks like Pablo and M37Charlie among others. And I don't mind being corrected when the proof is credible. Typically where I fail is deep chemistry type things; just never has been my strong suit. I can regurgitate what I hear, but I struggle to internalize them. However, I don't have to be a chemist to see UOA results, and be able to digest them. In my current job (7 years now) I do statistical process quality control; data collection and processing is my work life. I make product quality decisions every day based upon ROI. Risk, exposure, return; it's all in a day's data stream! In short, I cannot tell you why polymers do this, and alkyloids do that, blah-blah-blah. But I can tell you with certainty how the outputs are affected; how wear metals and such respond to products in use.
If you've seen some of my UOAs, you can see where I show how well some "basic" products can hold up, even under what most people would call "extreme" and "severe" conditions. Recent exmaples would be my use of ST dino oil for 10k miles; excellent UOA. My use of dino 10w-30 Rotella in a very harsh exposure to 6.5k miles of pulling a travel trailer in the mountains and heat of UT and AZ in summer; fantastic UOA.
When I claim something, I can typically back it up with evidence and personal experience.
I'm also full of opinions, but I'll acknowledge them as such.
So, yes, I not only "think" ST fluids are fine, I'm convinced as such by both macro-analysis and personal UOA data.
There are limits to any product, and at some point ST lubes may fail where a premium lube might succeed. Won't know that until we test them in some specific circumstance and let the data speak. But as a generalization, I see the ST fluids more than capable for what most folks are going to put them through.
Last edited:
In my experience, the guys who look down at house brands like ST do so for different (and still incorrect) reasons than the normal "PYB/GTX/QSGB causes sludge" myth. With the old wives tales, it's always a friend of a friend, or something out of the 1970s or 1980s.
When it comes to ST, it's always a story, at least up here, that originated with a backyard mechanic. Of course, they changed the oil religiously with ST at 3,000 miles. When they had a problem, they ran to the backyard mechanic and wanted it fixed as cheaply as possible. So, they want it fixed as cheaply as possible as far away from the dealership or independent shop as possible, yet they were fastidious with their maintenance from the outset? Right.
They used ST because they were cheap, and they never changed it ever because that was even cheaper.
When it comes to ST, it's always a story, at least up here, that originated with a backyard mechanic. Of course, they changed the oil religiously with ST at 3,000 miles. When they had a problem, they ran to the backyard mechanic and wanted it fixed as cheaply as possible. So, they want it fixed as cheaply as possible as far away from the dealership or independent shop as possible, yet they were fastidious with their maintenance from the outset? Right.
They used ST because they were cheap, and they never changed it ever because that was even cheaper.
- Status
Similar threads
