oil burners- mostly German cars

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
None of my Mercedes ever really burned any oil, they sometimes leaked it though.

Porsche is probably one of the best if not the best engine builders in the world.

My E430 didn't consume measurable oil(even with PP 5W20) between OCI's of 1 year 10-13k miles for most of the time, it consumes 1/4-1/2 quarts for few OCI's, no oil leak anywhere.

I think one of the best engine builders, if not the best, is Honda.

Back in 1990 Acura NSX 3L V6 generated 270 HP for 90 HP/L with 8k redline, Porsche 911 engine at that time produced less than 80 HP/L, it took Porsche 6-7 years to get to 90 HP/L. I took BMW 17 years to get 3L engine, for European only market with not as stringent emission control as US, to make 270 HP.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

If you have a car that you find has some consumption, then you just check the oil level now and then and add oil as needed.
Neither a good nor a bad thing, simply something you have to do.


Yup. It's just a known thing to do, no worries, the internals seem to last forever. Does make you wonder how their philosophies have had to change with the advent of the long life and other ACEA requirements. That might have caused more engineering change in Germany than in
Japan for instance. Many here have mentioned that although things with changing oil certs seem good all around (my position)we are still in a "Beta" period with formulations and that would have to include the auto OEM's. Worrisome in some ways and sort of reminiscent of the emissions control learning phase they seem to be in. Just thinkin out loud.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Back in 1990 Acura NSX 3L V6 generated 270 HP for 90 HP/L with 8k redline, Porsche 911 engine at that time produced less than 80 HP/L, it took Porsche 6-7 years to get to 90 HP/L. I took BMW 17 years to get 3L engine, for European only market with not as stringent emission control as US, to make 270 HP.


1990:

BMW M3 (non-EVO): 2.0L, 189HP, 94.5HP/L
BMW M3 (EVO I): 2.3L, 197HP, 85.7HP/L
BMW M3 (EVO II): 2.3L, 217HP, 94.4HP/L
BMW M3 (EVO III): 2.5L, 235HP, 94HP/L

That's three BMW M3 examples, including the "plain Jane", that made more than 90HP/L in 1990. But I applaud you for your carefully worded statements slagging Porsche for not meeting the 90HP/L target but omitting BMW from that bullet and instead focusing on the 3.0L 270HP target instead because the 90HP/L number had already been met back in 1986 with the M3.

You take your Honda cheerleading seriously sir

The careful crafting of your above post demonstrates that.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Weren't the last of the air-cooled 911s oil guzzlers?

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Back in 1990 Acura NSX 3L V6 generated 270 HP for 90 HP/L with 8k redline, Porsche 911 engine at that time produced less than 80 HP/L, it took Porsche 6-7 years to get to 90 HP/L. I took BMW 17 years to get 3L engine, for European only market with not as stringent emission control as US, to make 270 HP.

1990:

BMW M3 (non-EVO): 2.0L, 189HP, 94.5HP/L
BMW M3 (EVO I): 2.3L, 197HP, 85.7HP/L
BMW M3 (EVO II): 2.3L, 217HP, 94.4HP/L
BMW M3 (EVO III): 2.5L, 235HP, 94HP/L

That's three BMW M3 examples, including the "plain Jane", that made more than 90HP/L in 1990. But I applaud you for your carefully worded statements slagging Porsche for not meeting the 90HP/L target but omitting BMW from that bullet and instead focusing on the 3.0L 270HP target instead because the 90HP/L number had already been met back in 1986 with the M3.

You take your Honda cheerleading seriously sir

The careful crafting of your above post demonstrates that.

I'm careful about what I write, I knew that you will pound me for any mistake.

I read a Car&Driver article few years ago about 2008 NSX vs others, they mentioned that BMW didn't have a 3L 6-Cyl to around 270 HP until 2007 for European market. I don't remember which car had that engine.

Those 1990 BMW M3 (non-EVO and EVO xxx) were street legal ? or they were rallying/racing cars only ? As far as I know they were not available for sale in US for street use, while the NSX was legal to sale in all 50 US states and worldwide. I also remember that NSX was the most powerful 3L engine with 90HP/L and highest redline at 8k of any mass product car available in US.

There is one thing can't disputed, that is Honda make more engines(for all kind of applications) than any company.

 

[DeepFriar]

A buddy of mine, a Captain in the Navy Reserve, let me drive his 1990 M3 for "exercise" (his was one of the first the dealer got) while he pulled a 189 day TDY in the Seychelles Islands (Indian Ocean) of all places. Wasn't as nice a deal for me as it sounds as we lived in Florida then and great roads are few and far between. But it was a sweet little car, light on its feet and very fun to run.

Every now and then I see an auto journo talk about how it's best to have a car that you can use all of whenever you want (Like Miata) rather than to have beaucoup HP and not be able to use it except sparingly. That M3 was like that. I made fun of its low horsepower at the time but it was a real joy to drive and reinforces that idea.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Every now and then I see an auto journo talk about how it's best to have a car that you can use all of whenever you want (Like Miata) rather than to have beaucoup HP and not be able to use it except sparingly. That M3 was like that. I made fun of its low horsepower at the time but it was a real joy to drive and reinforces that idea.


One of my fondest automotive memories is the day that I spent lapping Sears Point(now Sonoma Raceway) in a friend's 1989 M3. Equipped with a Dinan suspension and a Conforti chip, I only had to give a point-by to two cars- an ex-IMSA 320i and a Turbo Carrera. My only regret is that I didn't pick one up before prices went nuts.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

I'm careful about what I write, I knew that you will pound me for any mistake.

Right back at ya

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I read a Car&Driver article few years ago about 2008 NSX vs others, they mentioned that BMW didn't have a 3L 6-Cyl to around 270 HP until 2007 for European market. I don't remember which car had that engine.


Not quite. The 3.0L engine wasn't a "performance" engine in the BMW line-up until 1992, you skipped over it going from the early M3 to the early M5. The early (E28) M5 had a 282HP 3.5L I6 (81HP/L) back in 1984 (though it was castrated for the US market, but this is 1984, LOL!). The 2nd Generation M5, produced from 1988-1995 sported the even larger 3.6L I6 that made 311HP initially (86HP/L) and then later the 3.8L I6 that made 335HP (88HP/L), which is pretty close to your target, and of course as I noted, the E30 (1985-1992) M3 more than exceeded the 90HP/L threshold with its 4-pot.

They were certainly capable of doing it, it just wasn't a performance displacement for them at the time.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Those 1990 BMW M3 (non-EVO and EVO xxx) were street legal ? or they were rallying/racing cars only ? As far as I know they were not available for sale in US for street use, while the NSX was legal to sale in all 50 US states and worldwide. I also remember that NSX was the most powerful 3L engine with 90HP/L and highest redline at 8k of any mass product car available in US.


The M3, like the M5, was a mass produced road legal car and the "race" version was even more "spirited" as per the Wiki on them:

Quote:
In full race trim, the naturally aspirated 2.3 L S14 engine produced approximately 300 hp (224 kW; 304 PS).[6] With the introduction of the 2.5 L evolution engine into racing in 1990, power increased to approximately 380 hp (283 kW; 385 PS).


Yes, that's 130HP/L and 152HP/L respectively

There were roughly 5,000 of them sold in the USA, that is the "regular" version.

Following that for 1992 was the E36 M3 which had the 3.0L I6 @ 282HP (94HP/L). However this was a Europe-only car until 1995 and the US Export model was, as with many of the earlier cars, castrated. The US version was only 240HP.


Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
There is one thing can't disputed, that is Honda make more engines(for all kind of applications) than any company.


Yup, they do and they are generally excellent.

 

[CBR.worm]

The only two cars I have ever had that didn't consume enough oil to need to add some between changes were a NA BMW I6 and a Toyota V8.

 

[CaspianM]

My 2002 MB 230 comp with 131K uses 0 oil no leak etc.
1998 v6 camry started oil at 90k, 02 sienna ay 85k.
It is all generalization. German cars are so much better than japs in every way but costlier to own. Labor is the killer.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: CaspianM
My 2002 MB 230 comp with 131K uses 0 oil no leak etc.
1998 v6 camry started oil at 90k, 02 sienna ay 85k.
It is all generalization. German cars are so much better than japs in every way but costlier to own. Labor is the killer.


I don't know that I'd say that German cars are so much better than japs in every way, and we've owned plenty of both.
Labor is only a killer for those who can't DIY and who select models known to be troublesome.
Plenty of German cars rival the reliability and best the durability of the best Honda, Subaru or Toyota has ever offered.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Pretty bad when a high brow European auto uses more oil than my 12.7L Detroit. It only uses about 2 qts in 25,000 miles.

 

[Gasbuggy]

My Accord is the king of the oil burners. Driving spiritedly, 1 quart in about 250 miles from full to add.

 

[Olas]

Are the any German cars in America? BMW Mercedes VW Audi And Porsche all have infrastructure and facilities in NA and SA - the cars you can buy are American built by American workers in American factories.
The only German part of any cars you can buy in NA is the brand name.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Pretty bad when a high brow European auto uses more oil than my 12.7L Detroit. It only uses about 2 qts in 25,000 miles.


that's 2 quarts more than my lowly italian car... previous one was the same. the only time the oil level dropped was when I cracked the sump.

 

[CaspianM]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: CaspianM
My 2002 MB 230 comp with 131K uses 0 oil no leak etc.
1998 v6 camry started oil at 90k, 02 sienna ay 85k.
It is all generalization. German cars are so much better than japs in every way but costlier to own. Labor is the killer.


I don't know that I'd say that German cars are so much better than japs in every way, and we've owned plenty of both.
Labor is only a killer for those who can't DIY and who select models known to be troublesome.
Plenty of German cars rival the reliability and best the durability of the best Honda, Subaru or Toyota has ever offered.

You can do limited DIY on these cars. And those are not the issue in terms of cost. The ones that cannot be done by average DIYer are complex and time consuming including expensive parts. Even if you get into an accident things are far more expensive to fix. Any MB & BMW both are totally different animals compared to Camry & Accord. If you have not realized that then what Can I say. From design stand point and performance day & night. Repairs are more complex as well explaining high labor.
Popular mid price cars such as most japs are built to the price point. You would never get the built & quality of European counterparts.

 

[CaspianM]

Long term reliability is a different beast. With japs you get a more reliable cars due their simplicity in design & features. Also you are comparing sport sedans with everyday haulers with economy consideration into their built & design. Performance cars are costlier to built and maintain for sure.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: CaspianM
Long term reliability is a different beast. With japs you get a more reliable cars due their simplicity in design & features. Also you are comparing sport sedans with everyday haulers with economy consideration into their built & design. Performance cars are costlier to built and maintain for sure.


Agreed 100%. I had a lot of cars over the years, and most of them were used. Actually all except my current Stilo.
Worst oil drinker was my 93 VTI Civic. Bought second hand from a family friend. Religiously maintained from day one. At 170k km it used about 0.7L per 1k km. Blue smoke occasionally and everything. But it was 1.6 four with 160HP so it was expected in my book.

 

[fdcg27]

So you're under the mistaken impression that mainstream BMW and Mercedes cars aren't built to a price point?
Do you actually think that BMW and Mercedes build cars of the same quality as those they built twenty years ago?
Do you really believe that the performance differences between something like a base three series and a V-6 Accord are anything like as great as they were twenty years ago?
These cars wear the same parts out as do Japanese cars.
Most of these parts are no more difficult to R&R on one of these German cars than they would be on a Japanese model.
Some work is even easier, since these cars don't have transverse FWD layouts.
Now, some German cars can be a real PITA to work on.
Certain Audi models come to mind.
Most are no worse to work on than any Honda.
Also, discount sources of high quality parts abound.

 

[CaspianM]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
So you're under the mistaken impression that mainstream BMW and Mercedes cars aren't built to a price point?
Do you actually think that BMW and Mercedes build cars of the same quality as those they built twenty years ago?
Do you really believe that the performance differences between something like a base three series and a V-6 Accord are anything like as great as they were twenty years ago?

I am not really following your points in rel. to the topic for most part.
Every product is built to the price point hence a MB and an accord are like apple & orange. That was the point.
20 years ago?? Let me think...what is significance of that in our discussion?? At any rate..yes 20 years ago Japs were japs and inferior to MB, BMW and so forth. It is all relative. The question that whether or not cars like MBs have declined over the years in term of quality is a different talk and highly debatable. Don't get me wrong. I like all sort of cars and owned a bunch.