I'm late on this, but having been through something similar with BJ's on a Volvo, my advice is to take it somewhere with a road force balancer that will use the road force feature.
New Latitude Tours on our MDX
- Thread starter Hokiefyd
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We had the Primacy MXV4s installed late last week, and they are fantastic. Super smooth, very quiet, and at least so far, they balanced pretty well. There might be a slight flutter still at certain speeds, but it's much better. If it bothers me in the long term, I may take it somewhere and have them road force balanced. It's frustrating because BJs does indeed have a road force balancer, but it's not operating at the moment. To take care of their customers, they do pay a different shop to road force balance them, so I wouldn't be out any money. We'll see.
It could be that one or two of the MDX's wheels are rather egg-shaped, and it was by luck that the old Cross Terrains were "clocked" correctly on the wheels...
But I'm far happier, and these MXV4s are a much better match to our MDX than the blocky Latitudes were. They're also A-rated for traction and temperature, despite their T speed rating. Sweet!
I love the new-tire sheen. I hope it lasts...
It could be that one or two of the MDX's wheels are rather egg-shaped, and it was by luck that the old Cross Terrains were "clocked" correctly on the wheels...
But I'm far happier, and these MXV4s are a much better match to our MDX than the blocky Latitudes were. They're also A-rated for traction and temperature, despite their T speed rating. Sweet!
I love the new-tire sheen. I hope it lasts...
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... It could be that one or two of the MDX's wheels are rather egg-shaped...
Reading your issues, in my mind I had actually wondered about that possibility. Besides the horrible flatspotting vibration of the new Conti DWS (swapped after 30 days for Mich MXV4's), only minor vibration I noticed after a rotation on a Civic was caused by damaged oem steelie. Later shown to me by the DT staff when I returned and noted it. Purchased a used one at a local salvage yard specializing in Honda/Acura, fixed the issue.
As for T rating, I know there is a huge amount of discussion here regarding their use yada, yada, and I've read most of it. But ime with the T rated Yoko Avid Touring on Civic, no issues and no worries. To each their own, but from a reputable brand manufacturer, a non issue imo.
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...I love the new-tire sheen. I hope it lasts
Funny you mention that. If I had one minor complaint closer to a nitpick, it would be that my Mich/MXV4's didn't hold the dark blackwall color for very long. And they seem to like to maintain an off or lighter non black tint than other tire brands (Yoko, Gen) I own or have owned. Hard to describe, just not a black appearance. But as said, that's a minor thing and one that can be dealt with by easy detailing.
... It could be that one or two of the MDX's wheels are rather egg-shaped...
Reading your issues, in my mind I had actually wondered about that possibility. Besides the horrible flatspotting vibration of the new Conti DWS (swapped after 30 days for Mich MXV4's), only minor vibration I noticed after a rotation on a Civic was caused by damaged oem steelie. Later shown to me by the DT staff when I returned and noted it. Purchased a used one at a local salvage yard specializing in Honda/Acura, fixed the issue.
As for T rating, I know there is a huge amount of discussion here regarding their use yada, yada, and I've read most of it. But ime with the T rated Yoko Avid Touring on Civic, no issues and no worries. To each their own, but from a reputable brand manufacturer, a non issue imo.
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...I love the new-tire sheen. I hope it lasts
Funny you mention that. If I had one minor complaint closer to a nitpick, it would be that my Mich/MXV4's didn't hold the dark blackwall color for very long. And they seem to like to maintain an off or lighter non black tint than other tire brands (Yoko, Gen) I own or have owned. Hard to describe, just not a black appearance. But as said, that's a minor thing and one that can be dealt with by easy detailing.
If all features of a DSP9000 roadforce balancer are used then the tires will be match mounted. The bare wheel is mounted on the balancer and measured prior to tire mounting.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Reading your issues, in my mind I had actually wondered about that possibility.
The only reason I don't think the problem is with the wheels is because the previous Cross Terrains were perfect. Again, maybe just lucky. When on the spin balancer, the wheels look as true as I've ever seen, but I know we're talking about small variations here.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
As for T rating, I know there is a huge amount of discussion here regarding their use yada, yada, and I've read most of it.
Yeah, I have no qualms here. OEM rating is T, these MXV4s appear to have the additional plies (2 polyester, 1 polyamide, 2 steel), and I like the A temperature rating, which is not something you usually get with T-rated tires.
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If I had one minor complaint closer to a nitpick, it would be that my Mich/MXV4's didn't hold the dark blackwall color for very long.
Yes, this is why I mention it. Every Michelin I've owned seems to trend towards a grey sidewall over time, rather than a black one. Michelin is also one of the few brands where you can see a distinctive difference between the tread compound and the sidewall compound...you can see that line along the top of the shoulder. The tread compound looks darker grey/black than the sidewall compound.
If the slight flutter bothers me over time, I will have them force balanced on a Hunter machine.
Reading your issues, in my mind I had actually wondered about that possibility.
The only reason I don't think the problem is with the wheels is because the previous Cross Terrains were perfect. Again, maybe just lucky. When on the spin balancer, the wheels look as true as I've ever seen, but I know we're talking about small variations here.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
As for T rating, I know there is a huge amount of discussion here regarding their use yada, yada, and I've read most of it.
Yeah, I have no qualms here. OEM rating is T, these MXV4s appear to have the additional plies (2 polyester, 1 polyamide, 2 steel), and I like the A temperature rating, which is not something you usually get with T-rated tires.
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If I had one minor complaint closer to a nitpick, it would be that my Mich/MXV4's didn't hold the dark blackwall color for very long.
Yes, this is why I mention it. Every Michelin I've owned seems to trend towards a grey sidewall over time, rather than a black one. Michelin is also one of the few brands where you can see a distinctive difference between the tread compound and the sidewall compound...you can see that line along the top of the shoulder. The tread compound looks darker grey/black than the sidewall compound.
If the slight flutter bothers me over time, I will have them force balanced on a Hunter machine.
Originally Posted By: MaxPilot
Those tires came on our Cadillac SRX. They do seem nice and have a 55,000 mile rating.
Update: The SRX is primarily my wifes car. So I finally got to drive it on the highway and noticed a vibration at 65-75 mph. I took it into the dealer to get the tires balanced. After the balance on a normal machine, it still vibrated at highway speeds.
So, the dealer then took it to a shop that had a road force balancer and found not one, not two but three of my tires were out of spec for roundness. They said the tires were balanced fine, just not round. So dealer ordered 3 new tires but only balanced them on their machine, which is not road force. At highway speeds, I swear I can still feel a little vibration, but my wife says it is really smooth. It's her car so I will live with it.
Those tires came on our Cadillac SRX. They do seem nice and have a 55,000 mile rating.
Update: The SRX is primarily my wifes car. So I finally got to drive it on the highway and noticed a vibration at 65-75 mph. I took it into the dealer to get the tires balanced. After the balance on a normal machine, it still vibrated at highway speeds.
So, the dealer then took it to a shop that had a road force balancer and found not one, not two but three of my tires were out of spec for roundness. They said the tires were balanced fine, just not round. So dealer ordered 3 new tires but only balanced them on their machine, which is not road force. At highway speeds, I swear I can still feel a little vibration, but my wife says it is really smooth. It's her car so I will live with it.
Originally Posted By: datech
Tires didn't used to always be black. I wonder why they are now?
I know they put carbon black in the mixture. Is that for durability?
Yes, it is the carbon black that turns the normally white to amber rubber black in color.
Why is it there? I'm not a rubber chemist, so I only have a superficial understanding, but it's there as a filler, as a structural material, and as a wear enhancer.
Tires didn't used to always be black. I wonder why they are now?
I know they put carbon black in the mixture. Is that for durability?
Yes, it is the carbon black that turns the normally white to amber rubber black in color.
Why is it there? I'm not a rubber chemist, so I only have a superficial understanding, but it's there as a filler, as a structural material, and as a wear enhancer.
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Update. We had the MDX on the interstate last weekend and there was a severe steering wheel shaking vibration at 70-75 mph. On the new Primacys. At this point, I'm getting pretty fed up with it. I visited BJs and asked if their ride control machine still wasn't working (it still wasn't), and they had me carry the car to a local tire chain (Blacks Tire for those in the area) for diagnosis. When I bring the invoice back to BJs, they'll reimburse me. Okay, I have no problem with that.
I took it to Blacks on Saturday morning and they checked it out. The wheels are round and straight, and the tires are round and straight. But they were hopelessly out of balance. All three tires were out of balance by at least 2.75 oz. They also heard something rattling inside the right rear tire. Upon inspection, they found a piece of one of the TPMS sensors broken off and rattling around. It didn't appear to damage the operation of the sensor, but whomever mounted the tire at BJs probably knicked the sensor with the arm of the tire mounting machine. Nice.
On the plus side, the tires ride great now. Heck, BOTH sets of the Latitude Tours were probably fine as well.
The manager at BJs told me when they were installing the Primacys that they even had their machine re-calibrated because of the issues with my tires. Who knows. It's fixed now. And it appears to be due to improper balancing at BJs.
So I will visit BJs and get my 100 bucks back for the road force balance at Blacks. And I'm going to try to get them to pony up $50 for a new OE sensor and $15 install at Blacks tire. Even if they'd just pay for the part, I'd be happy with that. I may go ahead and replace all four sensors at this point, because they're NINE years old, and those batteries can't last forever. Even all of the seals are still original. Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't acted up yet. For the curious, they are made by TRW Automotive.
I took it to Blacks on Saturday morning and they checked it out. The wheels are round and straight, and the tires are round and straight. But they were hopelessly out of balance. All three tires were out of balance by at least 2.75 oz. They also heard something rattling inside the right rear tire. Upon inspection, they found a piece of one of the TPMS sensors broken off and rattling around. It didn't appear to damage the operation of the sensor, but whomever mounted the tire at BJs probably knicked the sensor with the arm of the tire mounting machine. Nice.
On the plus side, the tires ride great now. Heck, BOTH sets of the Latitude Tours were probably fine as well.
So I will visit BJs and get my 100 bucks back for the road force balance at Blacks. And I'm going to try to get them to pony up $50 for a new OE sensor and $15 install at Blacks tire. Even if they'd just pay for the part, I'd be happy with that. I may go ahead and replace all four sensors at this point, because they're NINE years old, and those batteries can't last forever. Even all of the seals are still original. Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't acted up yet. For the curious, they are made by TRW Automotive.
Since you mentioned that the previous tires were "wobbling" on the balancer, perhaps your balance issues were a result of the tire not being properly mounted/centered to the balancer?
At least two of the tires in the SECOND set of Latitudes did look "egg shaped" as mounted on the wheel. The wheel was fixed fast to the balancer, and the wheel itself appeared to spin very true (confirmed I guess by the Hunter machine at Blacks Tire this weekend). But the tread of the tire tire (two of the Latitudes) seemed to wobble on the wheel as the balancer spun it. There was at least 1/2" of lateral runout in the tread as the balancer spun, with no perceivable runout in the wheel.
I observed what I call the "witness line" running around the base of the sidewall down by the bead. I use this witness line on bicycle tires to make sure I have them seated correctly on the wheel. The witness line appeared pretty uniform all the way around as the tire spun. It looks like any non-uniformity was above that witness line, in the structure of the tire itself. Was this bad enough to cause the vibes in the second set of Latitudes, or was it a poor balance job? I don't know. I never saw any runout issues with the FIRST set of Latitudes. Were those tires 100% okay, and the problem was just a poor balance job? I again don't know.
I can say this, however, with a high degree of certainty. Well, two things, actually.
1. The management of BJs has been top-notch in keeping faithful to me in this process. They've never denied a claim of mine and had no questions with the $100 reimbursement for the balance at Blacks. I went there last night and they paid me $100 in $20 bills at their membership desk. I have zero problems with how they've handled the situation.
2. Having said what I did above, this BJs location seems very unprepared to be in the business of selling tires. They don't always have a tire manager in the shop. They sometimes have only one person working there, so if he's out in the bay and someone walks in to refill a propane tank (which happens quite often), he has to leave the bay and go fill the tank. If you try to call them, they often don't answer the phone (again, because they're understaffed). They only have two balancing machines for their three bays, and one is known to be down (their Coats ride control machine) and their spin balancer (also a Coats) doesn't appear to be working right either. The tire manager last night told me he's had to recalibrate it 4 times since I was there and he's asked to have a new machine brought in. This is very different from the experience I've had at Sam's Club, and from the experience my folks have had at Costco. Sam's always has a tire manager/sales person at the desk to take phone calls or speak with customers, and there are always a number of techs in the bay doing tires. You can walk in at any time of day and have your tires serviced. Because of the short staff at BJs, they ask that you make an appointment.
So while I appreciate the efforts of BJs management to make this situation right, and they have done so, at least so far, I probably won't be buying more tires there. It seems that tires is a "side business" for them, much moreso than at other warehouse clubs, and our experience at Sam's has been much better.
I observed what I call the "witness line" running around the base of the sidewall down by the bead. I use this witness line on bicycle tires to make sure I have them seated correctly on the wheel. The witness line appeared pretty uniform all the way around as the tire spun. It looks like any non-uniformity was above that witness line, in the structure of the tire itself. Was this bad enough to cause the vibes in the second set of Latitudes, or was it a poor balance job? I don't know. I never saw any runout issues with the FIRST set of Latitudes. Were those tires 100% okay, and the problem was just a poor balance job? I again don't know.
I can say this, however, with a high degree of certainty. Well, two things, actually.
1. The management of BJs has been top-notch in keeping faithful to me in this process. They've never denied a claim of mine and had no questions with the $100 reimbursement for the balance at Blacks. I went there last night and they paid me $100 in $20 bills at their membership desk. I have zero problems with how they've handled the situation.
2. Having said what I did above, this BJs location seems very unprepared to be in the business of selling tires. They don't always have a tire manager in the shop. They sometimes have only one person working there, so if he's out in the bay and someone walks in to refill a propane tank (which happens quite often), he has to leave the bay and go fill the tank. If you try to call them, they often don't answer the phone (again, because they're understaffed). They only have two balancing machines for their three bays, and one is known to be down (their Coats ride control machine) and their spin balancer (also a Coats) doesn't appear to be working right either. The tire manager last night told me he's had to recalibrate it 4 times since I was there and he's asked to have a new machine brought in. This is very different from the experience I've had at Sam's Club, and from the experience my folks have had at Costco. Sam's always has a tire manager/sales person at the desk to take phone calls or speak with customers, and there are always a number of techs in the bay doing tires. You can walk in at any time of day and have your tires serviced. Because of the short staff at BJs, they ask that you make an appointment.
So while I appreciate the efforts of BJs management to make this situation right, and they have done so, at least so far, I probably won't be buying more tires there. It seems that tires is a "side business" for them, much moreso than at other warehouse clubs, and our experience at Sam's has been much better.
It is confusing. The first thing you need to do is eliminate the assembly that had the broken TPMS unit from the discussion. That one by itself would cause all the issues you've been experiencing - and given that you've never ridden on the tires without the broken TPMS, you'll never know if it was just that or the balance. Personally, I would chalk it up to the broken unit.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
It is confusing. The first thing you need to do is eliminate the assembly that had the broken TPMS unit from the discussion. That one by itself would cause all the issues you've been experiencing - and given that you've never ridden on the tires without the broken TPMS, you'll never know if it was just that or the balance. Personally, I would chalk it up to the broken unit.
The broken TPMS happened on the very last iteration. Or at least we assume it did because the broken fragment was still inside the tire and rattling around. This TPMS was very likely fine and intact until the Primacys were mounted, which is when we believe it got broken. So I don't think it influenced anything that happned with the Latitudes, but sure, it could have influenced the balance on that particular Primacy. But all four assemblies were between 2.75 and 3.00 oz out of balance as well.
With the sensors being as old as they are, and BJs seemingly willing to replace the one sensor, I think I'm going to have all four replaced here in the near future. I will do it at Blacks Tire, and they'll obviously re-balance each assembly after the new sensors are installed.
Did I understand the gist of your comment?
It is confusing. The first thing you need to do is eliminate the assembly that had the broken TPMS unit from the discussion. That one by itself would cause all the issues you've been experiencing - and given that you've never ridden on the tires without the broken TPMS, you'll never know if it was just that or the balance. Personally, I would chalk it up to the broken unit.
The broken TPMS happened on the very last iteration. Or at least we assume it did because the broken fragment was still inside the tire and rattling around. This TPMS was very likely fine and intact until the Primacys were mounted, which is when we believe it got broken. So I don't think it influenced anything that happned with the Latitudes, but sure, it could have influenced the balance on that particular Primacy. But all four assemblies were between 2.75 and 3.00 oz out of balance as well.
With the sensors being as old as they are, and BJs seemingly willing to replace the one sensor, I think I'm going to have all four replaced here in the near future. I will do it at Blacks Tire, and they'll obviously re-balance each assembly after the new sensors are installed.
Did I understand the gist of your comment?
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
.....Did I understand the gist of your comment?
Yes. I missed the fact that you had replaced tires.
BTW are you now on your third set of tires (not counting the worn set you took off)?
.....Did I understand the gist of your comment?
Yes. I missed the fact that you had replaced tires.
BTW are you now on your third set of tires (not counting the worn set you took off)?
Yes. Two sets of Latitudes and one set of Primacys. In the period of a month, I've doubled the sets of tires that have been installed on the car!
Factory set: Michelin Cross Terrain
1st replacement set: Michelin Energy MXV4+
2nd replacement set: BFGoodrich Long Trail T/A Tour (replaced in a week by 3rd set due to terrible road noise)
3rd replacement set: Michelin Cross Terrain
4th/5th replacement sets: Michelin Latitude Tour (may or may not have been bad)
6th replacement set: Michelin Primacy MXV4
The Cross Terrains each lasted 40-45k miles, which is about what I'd expect from tires with a 420 UTQG tread wear rating. The Energys were taken off after only 10k miles or so from severe dry rot (this vehicle was often stored for long periods of time in the desert sun in Arizona when my folks owned it). We put the BFGs on, but had them swapped after about a week with new Cross Terrains because of ride/noise complaints with the BFGs. Those had about 40k miles when I replaced them in January of this year. I would have gotten another 5k out of them, but a nail took one out, so I replaced them all.
The Primacys have a 65,000 mile warranty, but as these are OEM tires (Honda Odyssey in this size), they have a 500 UTQG tread wear rating, and I don't expect more than 50k miles.
Factory set: Michelin Cross Terrain
1st replacement set: Michelin Energy MXV4+
2nd replacement set: BFGoodrich Long Trail T/A Tour (replaced in a week by 3rd set due to terrible road noise)
3rd replacement set: Michelin Cross Terrain
4th/5th replacement sets: Michelin Latitude Tour (may or may not have been bad)
6th replacement set: Michelin Primacy MXV4
The Cross Terrains each lasted 40-45k miles, which is about what I'd expect from tires with a 420 UTQG tread wear rating. The Energys were taken off after only 10k miles or so from severe dry rot (this vehicle was often stored for long periods of time in the desert sun in Arizona when my folks owned it). We put the BFGs on, but had them swapped after about a week with new Cross Terrains because of ride/noise complaints with the BFGs. Those had about 40k miles when I replaced them in January of this year. I would have gotten another 5k out of them, but a nail took one out, so I replaced them all.
The Primacys have a 65,000 mile warranty, but as these are OEM tires (Honda Odyssey in this size), they have a 500 UTQG tread wear rating, and I don't expect more than 50k miles.
I've had OE Cross Terrains, and OE Latitudes. Although neither were much to brag about, I'd much prefer the Cross Terrains. The Cross Terrains I had were excellent in snow. The Latitudes felt like summer tires in snow. Latitudes did handle better on dry pavement, but the Cross Terrains I had were very narrow.
I've had pretty good experience with both. We played in the CR-V a lot this past winter storm, and the rounded-shoulder Latitudes on this car (unlike the squared-shoulder ones in our Acura's size) were really quite planted on the snow. Even on packed snow, they were a joy to drive. I could force the car to get out of shape by turning the VSA off and hitting a turn with some speed and throttle to get the tail to step out, but I really had to try. I certainly could have spun it out uncontrollably at higher speeds, but I don't want to ruin the car...just have fun!
I can only imagine that the squared-shoulder Latitudes we had on the MDX would be even better...they're more heavily-siped with blockier shoulders. They also get excellent all-weather traction reviews by users on Tire Rack, so their performance appears to be pretty consistent. Jeep must have really penalized their performance in the OEM version that came on your Grand. It's unfortunate when that happens, but it's not uncommon with OEM tires.
I can only imagine that the squared-shoulder Latitudes we had on the MDX would be even better...they're more heavily-siped with blockier shoulders. They also get excellent all-weather traction reviews by users on Tire Rack, so their performance appears to be pretty consistent. Jeep must have really penalized their performance in the OEM version that came on your Grand. It's unfortunate when that happens, but it's not uncommon with OEM tires.
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