New Dex-Cool Information

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http://www.coolprofits.com/

The author is an independent author who did the research to report to auto shops. The conclusion is really what I suspected all along: most of the Dex-Cool issues are actually design flaws with GM cooling systems.

Read all of the articles-- 1, 1a, 2, 3 and 3a. It's a long read, but worth it. After that, let's discuss.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
http://www.coolprofits.com/

The author is an independent author who did the research to report to auto shops. The conclusion is really what I suspected all along: most of the Dex-Cool issues are actually design flaws with GM cooling systems.

Read all of the articles-- 1, 1a, 2, 3 and 3a. It's a long read, but worth it. After that, let's discuss.


It is an interesting read, and I agree that DexCool can be made to work if *everything* is done just right.

But my question remains: "Why is it worth all the effort to make it work?" Why not just throw it away and either go with an OAT formulation that doesn't have 2EHA which attacks the plastics, or with a HOAT? Both of those options seem to work fine out in the real world in a large number of vehicles.
 
I was wondering the same thing myself about "why"? Not like this is (or should) be rocket science. My Toyota red and Honda (now blue) coolants work great.

As an aside that's one of the nastiest websites I've seen in a while. At first I thought it was some kind of spam site.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
http://www.coolprofits.com/

The author is an independent author who did the research to report to auto shops. The conclusion is really what I suspected all along: most of the Dex-Cool issues are actually design flaws with GM cooling systems.

Read all of the articles-- 1, 1a, 2, 3 and 3a. It's a long read, but worth it. After that, let's discuss.


aww man, I was hoping for the cliff notes version?
grin2.gif
 
It seems like there was a disconnect somewhere along the line at GM. Like the group that decided to use Dex did not talk to the group that decided to use nylon gaskets.
 
Yep, that's one ugly website. Looks like it's based on an old HTML template circa 1997.

Lots of good info there.

But it's hardly "new". This link has been posted on BITOG boards several times in the past. It's a couple years old... and you'd have to read it pretty selectively to conclude that there's no inherent problem with Dexcool. This looks pretty danming to me:

Quote:
Expert witness: DEX-IMG incompatibility well-known
One of the documents is from a 50-year veteran of the gasket and seal industries. A member of the SAE, ACS (American Chemical Society) and ASTM, the latter of which he served on the D15 coolant committee, he states that he was aware of GM’s 3.1 liter, etc, IMG failures well before learning of the lawsuit. He goes on to say that the gasket’s poor design and incompatibility with DEX was well-known in his industry. What brought up the discussions was GM’s adopting DEX in 1996, which of course led to widespread testing by him and peers. Those companies included heavy duty manufacturers Caterpillar, Cummins and International. He authored two technical papers, derived from thousands of hours of testing, focusing on the effects that DEX’s corrosion inhibitors have on rubber and plastic gaskets and seals, including GM’s IMGs in question. He concludes that the two are incompatible because DEX OAT inhibitors degrade both silicone and nylon, of which these gaskets are made.

For more specifics, the IMG is described as Nylon 6,6 carrier, 33% glass filled, injection molded, single silicone sealing bead. This man felt the IMG was not a good design to begin with, and then the inhibitors start attacking the weakened carrier. Evidently, because the silicone sealing bead is not molded over onto the carrier, the carrier is in direct contact with the DEX. Tie that in with no compression limiters, needed to maintain gasket integrity (see photo above), to begin with and that, according to the expert, is why the gasket is prone to fail.

Expert witness: HOATs do not degrade gaskets
Interesting, this expert witness went beyond the DEX problem to clarify that different from DEX OATs, HOATs, Hybrid Organic Acid Chemistry coolants, do not degrade silicone and nylon gaskets. The explanation is quite simple; the added silicate inhibitors of the HOAT protect the silicone polymer from the type of degradation it suffers with pure OAT (DEX). (I think I need a Chemistry refresher.)


Any regular around here will know my opinion of Dexcool (I wouldn't use it if the stuff was free). Dexcool's gasket-eating properties are well-documented. Dexcool's sludge problem (whatever the exact mechanism) is well-documented... and the problem is inherent enough that GM has had to pay out thousands of class-action lawsuit payments. I've yet to see any other coolant have sludge problems on a scale anywhere CLOSE to that of Dexcool (can anybody point out any other modern coolant that has turned to sludge in tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands?) of vehicles?).

Perfectly effective and trouble-free alternatives are readily available... so I'm just not sure why anybody would voluntarily put dexcool into their cooling system. But it's a free country (or so I've been told). Do what ya' want.
 
I'm about to buy a 2009 Chevrolet that is filled from the factory with Dex-Cool. Is there anything I need to know about preventing the system from failing? Should I make sure the level is at the mark or higher? It seems the failures/sludging occurs from incompatible gasket materials and not a reaction to metal.
 
Not sure which engine you have, but I think GM has eliminated the coolant passages through the intake manifold in all V6 engines- don't know if that's the case with V8 engines or not. If the intake gasket problem has been fixed (don't take a salesman's word for it), then IMO, that will resolve a good fraction of Dexcool problems.

But the fact remains that Dexcool will still dissolve gaskets and will still turn to sludge under less than perfect conditions. If I were to buy a new GM... some will say I'm off my rocker here... but I'd immediately do a flush and fill with G05- which will eliminate any Dexcool problems before they start. I'd probably use Mopar's versions of G05 since it looks exactly like Dexcool. Nobody at the dealer will ever know. Just don't let them top off the coolant.
 
Onion is right, all GM V6 engines have "dry" manifolds now. I haven't heard of any Dexcool issues in newer GM platforms (Ecotec 4s, V6s, LSx V8s, etc)


Some people feel more strongly about Dexcool than others, so do what will make you sleep comfortably at night. FWIW, both my Ecotec and LS1 motors have Dexcool in them right now and I'm not worried... I just had my 3 year old Silverado flushed and the tech said it looked fine.
 
Originally Posted By: onion
I'd probably use Mopar's versions of G05 since it looks exactly like Dexcool. Nobody at the dealer will ever know. Just don't let them top off the coolant.


That's my biggest worry is the dealer will top it off for some strange reason and contaminate the G-05 and I'll never know...
 
Originally Posted By: metroplex
I'm about to buy a 2009 Chevrolet that is filled from the factory with Dex-Cool. Is there anything I need to know about preventing the system from failing?


Yeah, drain and fill with G-05 :)

If I had a new GM, I'd see what the warranty does if you change to another coolant. If I had to stay with DexCrap through the warranty period I'd be sure to keep the reservoir tank over-full and check it for air in the system, and I'd replace the coolant once per year even though its allegedly "long life."

The second the warranty was up, G-05 would go in.
 
Yep, Dexcoll probably will work fine if everything is perfect, BUT how many people keep their cooling systems perfect? [censored], GM couldn't even design the cooling system perfect enough to suit it.
Good riddance to Rick Wagoner too, even Obama knew he blew it. Finally, somebody has to answer for Dexcool (Yeah, I know why they said he was canned, but it really boiled down to lost market share and Dexcool contributed to that lost market share)
Don't reward GM's poor choice of Dexcool by using it, dump it and use G-05.
 
Originally Posted By: metroplex
I'm about to buy a 2009 Chevrolet that is filled from the factory with Dex-Cool. Is there anything I need to know about preventing the system from failing? Should I make sure the level is at the mark or higher? It seems the failures/sludging occurs from incompatible gasket materials and not a reaction to metal.

The best thing that you can do is to change the Dex-Cool every five years or 150k miles, whichever comes first, as recommended by GM. Also, make sure the system only gets topped off with a 50/50 mixture of Dex-Cool and distilled water. I highly recommend that you ignore the advice to flush out the Dex-Cool and replace it with G-05-- it just isn't necessary.
 
Quote:
I highly recommend that you ignore the advice to flush out the Dex-Cool and replace it with G-05-- it just isn't necessary.
...based on your experience with ONE vehicle running Dexcool. Brilliant.

Ok folks- Critic has spoken. His Saturn has had no Dexcool-related issues yet. So just ignore the FACT that TENS OF THOUSANDS of GM vehicles have had major issues with Dexcool. Ignore the FACT that these issues are SPECIFIC to Dexcool and are practically unheardof with a non-2eha coolant. Ignore the FACT that trouble-free alternatives are cheap and readily available. Ignore the FACT that GM has been proven liable for this problem in a court of law and has paid out millions of $$ in settlements.

'Cause Critic's Saturn runs fine. Therefore this Dexcool thing must be a non-issue.

I mean... Critic isn't a mechanic. He isn't an engineer. He has essentially no mechanical background outside of an excessive BITOG post count. But he's a real smart feller- so just take his word for it.
 
+1 on onion's last post.

Just because one person didn't have a problem with Dexcool doesn't mean that many other people didn't either. Dexcool has been proven to cause problems in many cooling systems, G-05 has not. So why take a chance especially considering that GM may not even be around to warranty the car.
GM settled a multi-million dollar lawsuit over Dexcool's damages and that relieves GM of future liability, so you probably won't even have that avenue of recourse if you have trouble with it.

IGNORE CRITIC'S ADVICE --- DRAIN THAT DEXCOOL NOW !!! Sleep soundly at night.
 
Then explain to me why there are millions of cars on the road with Dex-Cool that do NOT have issues?
 
Years ago i did full flush/clean and re-install with G-05 in all my GM stuff no problems at all to date,systems are as clean as the day i converted over,G-05 is some good stuff i sure sleep better at nights.
cheers3.gif
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Then explain to me why there are millions of cars on the road with Dex-Cool that do NOT have issues


This has been explained over and over. I gotta go to class... and I'm not too interested at the moment.

But I will point out that millions of cars are on the road with Fram oil filters- and aren't experiencing problems. Does that mean that Fram oil filters are a perfectly good product?

Toyota has put out a run of engines that are known and proven sludge-monsters. And yet a pretty significant percentage of those engines still run ok. Is that a perfectly good product?

I've swapped head gaskets, cylinder heads,cylinder liners... machined blocks, and swapped entire engines on dozens and dozens of Mercedes 4000-series heavy truck engines (almost all done under warranty)... all to address head gasket leaks. Yet there are thousands of these engines out there that don't have (currently) leaking head gaskets. Is this a perfectly good product?
 
anyone ever post a UOA of a GM engine with the 3.1, 3.4, 3.8 engines that leak antifreeze with G-05 coolant only?
 
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