Nazi loot train purportedly found in Poland

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
After WWII Germany got an equivalent of a wrist slap and a pinky swear that they will not do it again. In the meantime look what happened to Iraq for stuff that they did not even do.



I guess if you consider a "wrist slap" to be the total destruction of their society and having their country split in half for 50 years with some parts never to be returned, having most of their women raped, and most males over the age of 18 either killed or hauled off to work camps for most of their lives. The Allies also forced them to continue to pay WW1 reparations with back interest, anyone who put student loans into deferment knows how that adds up. Germany just finished paying for WW1 BTW.


Iraq in no way compared to Germany or Japan. We simply invaded Iraq we did not totally destroy and rebuild their society.


Oh, so you think the countries and the populations that were occupied by Germans simply enjoyed their schnitzels and fine marching of the troops? You have no idea what kind of devastation and pillaging the wermaht did. Entire cities were leveled by their air raids. In occupied countires a German officer could execute the occupied people at will in the middle of the street, no reason was necessery. He simply did not have to like the look of a person.
What about the entire Easter Europe that got to enjoy the warm hand of Soviet Russia after the war?

Yes, the Germans were really the victims after the whole affair was over. Give it 20 more years and the whole WW2 will be blamed on some other country. The people that fought Germans in WW2 would be disgusted by the political correctness or out right ignorance of some

The german people were victims even before the war, but to their own elected (or not) leaders. What therest of europe got during the war was equal to what the germans got since the early 30s


So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
The german people were victims even before the war, but to their own elected (or not) leaders. What therest of europe got during the war was equal to what the germans got since the early 30s


So, the German people were taken from their homes by military police and sent to camps to be; tortured, gassed, shot en mass, have medical experiments performed on them WITHOUT anesthesia, raped, starved, and disposed of in huge ovens??? W T F!!!


Yes, the Germans were the victim before and after WW2. What's next? The concentration camps never happened? There were no plans for world domination and extermination of the "lesser" races? It was all just a big misunderstanding? W T F indeed!

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
After WWII Germany got an equivalent of a wrist slap and a pinky swear that they will not do it again. In the meantime look what happened to Iraq for stuff that they did not even do.



I guess if you consider a "wrist slap" to be the total destruction of their society and having their country split in half for 50 years with some parts never to be returned, having most of their women raped, and most males over the age of 18 either killed or hauled off to work camps for most of their lives. The Allies also forced them to continue to pay WW1 reparations with back interest, anyone who put student loans into deferment knows how that adds up. Germany just finished paying for WW1 BTW.


Iraq in no way compared to Germany or Japan. We simply invaded Iraq we did not totally destroy and rebuild their society.


Oh, so you think the countries and the populations that were occupied by Germans simply enjoyed their schnitzels and fine marching of the troops? You have no idea what kind of devastation and pillaging the wermaht did. Entire cities were leveled by their air raids. In occupied countires a German officer could execute the occupied people at will in the middle of the street, no reason was necessery. He simply did not have to like the look of a person.
What about the entire Easter Europe that got to enjoy the warm hand of Soviet Russia after the war?

Yes, the Germans were really the victims after the whole affair was over. Give it 20 more years and the whole WW2 will be blamed on some other country. The people that fought Germans in WW2 would be disgusted by the political correctness or out right ignorance of some

You sir are an idiot I have studied the 2nd World War extensively, I never made any mention of what the Germans did in occupied territories.

I simply disagreed with your characterization of the affairs in Germany post war, I'll say it again I don't consider the destruction of an entire society a wrist slap, you have not refuted it, I made no mention of their deserving it or not.

Now a more serious argument could have been that the Treaty of Versailles was a wrist slap. Although many contemporaries at the time argued that it went to far. I would argue if I were to do a thesis on the subject that the major failure of the treaty was that since most of the fighting took place out of German territory the populace didn't really feel like they "lost". One could make the argument both ways really. But in 1945 the average German had zero misconceptions about the state of the war, its kind of hard to when your house is in rubble.

Now if you want to have a discussion about various ways to destroy and remake societies I'd love to. Maybe we can start with the Sherman Doctrine or would you like to start further back? Its a fascinating subject.

I happen to be a subscriber to the Sherman Doctrine I think its very effective; the total destruction of Germany from 1943-1945 is exactly in line with that doctrine and the reason the post war rebuilding has been so effective.

 

[Win]

Stolen property belongs to its rightful owner.

The property should be returned to whomever/wherever it was stolen from. If it came from Hungary, it should go back to Hungary.

This shouldn't be that complicated.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
After WWII Germany got an equivalent of a wrist slap and a pinky swear that they will not do it again. In the meantime look what happened to Iraq for stuff that they did not even do.



I guess if you consider a "wrist slap" to be the total destruction of their society and having their country split in half for 50 years with some parts never to be returned, having most of their women raped, and most males over the age of 18 either killed or hauled off to work camps for most of their lives. The Allies also forced them to continue to pay WW1 reparations with back interest, anyone who put student loans into deferment knows how that adds up. Germany just finished paying for WW1 BTW.


Iraq in no way compared to Germany or Japan. We simply invaded Iraq we did not totally destroy and rebuild their society.


Nonsense.

Iraq is utterly destroyed and where people used to feed themselves the entire country is basically on rations and foreign aid.
The infrastructure is comp,every destroyed,the people have no real hope of jobs and an real future.
So all they have is their guns. Instead of jobs.
Saddam Hussein may have been a bad man however bush is just as bad,or worse.
He invaded a country that wasn't a threat,sold the sheeple on a war that was for nothing,and the population is still brainwashed into believing it was justified.
America killed as many civilians as Hussein did.
But Hussein maintained a functioning country m
Now it's just a war zone.


If you subscribe to the doctrine of Total War Iraq does not fall into that category.

Ignore the politics for a moment and look at Iraq strictly in a tactical sense, the way a military academy class would:

The invasion was largely modeled off German doctrine which is rapid movement and encirclement. It was not largely different from the first Gulf War, areas with large open plains lend themselves to this kind of strategy very nicely. (I will not use the term Blitzkrieg, that is an American term the Germans never used it and its not what they do)

IE, we moved in very fast, cut off the government's head and the military as well. The causalities were light and the civilian population was more or less untouched. I believe a couple attempts were made to bypass cities and do some encirclement's of Iraq military units. It was an invasion Henz Guderian could have put together and would have recognized.

That is not total war, or the Sherman Doctrine as I like to call it because General Sherman in our Civil War really brought the concept into the modern era. It has existed for as long as conflict has, but the Civil War really was at the beginning of large industrial conflict and where military thought and strategy really began to deviate from Napoleonic tactics.

Here is a fantastic quote from Sherman and you will hear some of the 20th century's great military thinkers use it:

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war [...] I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter."

Sherman unlike the British in the Boer War, and Germans in Russia and the Japanese in China struck a balance in the persecution of the concept of total war. Taken to far and not done properly and it will lead to insurgencies, not taken far enough and your right back at insurgencies or never ending war as he put it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war
Now what is total war? Well that's a large topic I'm not covering, here is a good start.

Now lets apply the concepts to Iraq; to fight a theoretical campaign against Iraq this is what I believe would have had to happen for the concept of total war to be applied and effective.
1. Destruction of all government, and of any groups that hold any sort of power whatsoever. IE, tribal, religious etc.
2. Destruction of all cities and infrastructure to rubble.
3. Mass relocations of population to new areas to blur tribal lines.(all cities and the capital would be relocated/renamed as well)
4. New government and education established.
5. New cities built.
6. The state defense and security would be outsourced to the victor country for at least 5 if not 10 years.

Sounds pretty horrible? I think so, but that's the concept of total war. At the crux of the concept it consists of two main points; one war is awful and their is no way to sanitize it, two because it is awful it should be brought to a rapid conclusion as harshly as possible to banish the thought of ever making war again.

Theory of course has its limitations, so YMMV.

 

[javacontour]

I recall in some post Desert Storm training that two groups in the Soviet Union were treated differently after the war.

Those who wrote Soviet doctrine were praised. Right or wrong, the Soviets felt the coalition (I.E. US and UK largely) were using their doctrine on the ground. We called it Air Land Battle Doctrine at the time I was a cadet, IIRC.

Originally Posted By: USTRADOC Pamplet 525-5

"... once political authorities commit military forces in pursuit of political aims, military forces must win something—else there will be no basis from which political authorities can bargain to win politically. Therefore, the purpose of military operations can not be simply to avert defeat—but rather it must be to win."


On the other side of the equation, their weapons designers and builders got a wake-up call as few if any Soviet weapons fielded by Iraq stood up to the US weapons they faced.

T72 tanks could not engage the M1's that were taking them out at will. A moving M1 could engage a T72 from beyond the range of the T72's main gun, and take it out without stopping.

The air war was largely over in hours for Iraq. The best they could do is try to hide and occasionally fire a SAM before going into hiding again.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Between the M1, Apache, and A-10, the T72 had a lot to be afraid of. However, the Battle of 73 Easting demonstrated that even when American Armor grunts were up against Iraqi tank elites, the T72 couldn't hold a candle to the M1.

It was a major shakeup for the Soviets, who had assumed since the Yom Kippur War and Vietnam that their anti-tank weaponry and SAM launchers had made Western war machines obsolete. It was a scary time for anyone hoping their Soviet weapons would prove effective against the West. Of course, The Spirit and the Nighthawk officially became the scariest birds in the sky as well.

Desert Storm may not have actually been Total War, but when you look at those photos of the highway back to Baghdad, it's really hard to tell.

BTW, speaking of 73 Easting; one of my favorite stories of tank war comes out of there. There's an Iraqi prisoner in the back of an APC who notices a picture of Irwin "Desert Fox" Rommel on the rear hatch. He asks on of the American soldiers why he would be displaying a picture of their old adverasary. The soldier replies, "If you had any respect for that man and his lessons in war, you wouldn't be sitting in the back of my tank!".

 

[Jarlaxle]

WW2 was caused-entirely-by the Allies using half-measures against Germany after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles was harsh enough that everyone resented it, but not harsh enough to keep them cowed. Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
WW2 was caused-entirely-by the Allies using half-measures against Germany after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles was harsh enough that everyone resented it, but not harsh enough to keep them cowed. Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.
Deja vu all over again.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.


Yes, it would be quite hard to believe (even if they were delusional) that they were the "Master Race" in THAT condition.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.


Yes, it would be quite hard to believe (even if they were delusional) that they were the "Master Race" in THAT condition.


Are you white? Because most of us that are would be at least in some form related to that (perhaps ridiculous) idealism. Food for thought.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.


Yes, it would be quite hard to believe (even if they were delusional) that they were the "Master Race" in THAT condition.


Are you white?


I am. Perhaps not white enough as I feel a bit intimidated when in Germany.

 

[DoubleWasp]

There were a lot of white people left out of the "Master Race" specifications.

The biggest mistake after WW2 was not keeping Germany occupied. No matter what way Germany was cowed, there was a major opportunity for a smooth talking dirtbag to mobilize downtrodden people into supporting a lot of stupid ideals. We've seen this repeated again and again since WW2 in other nations.

Take any group of impoverished, angry people with nothing to do, and tell them that they are special and give them a means to fight and take control. Works every time.

Adolf Hitler should have been arrested and thrown in jail long before 1939.

 

[Andy636]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
WW2 was caused-entirely-by the Allies using half-measures against Germany after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles was harsh enough that everyone resented it, but not harsh enough to keep them cowed. Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.


+1 on that.

There are two sides of the story in every conflict and usually after the dust sets it's only the winner's side that you get to hear.

A lot of german ethnics in the territories that Germany lost after the Versailles treaty were treated like animals and nothing more.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

You sir are an idiot I have studied the 2nd World War extensively, I never made any mention of what the Germans did in occupied territories.

I simply disagreed with your characterization of the affairs in Germany post war, I'll say it again I don't consider the destruction of an entire society a wrist slap, you have not refuted it, I made no mention of their deserving it or not.


Thank you very much for your kind words.

The destruction of a society, as you call it did not happen in the same extent to the German people as it did to the countries occupied by Germans. They did get a taste of their own medicine, but not to the same extent as Belarus, Poland, Ukraine and others.

On top of that US rebuilt the western Germany from scratch and East Germans had more leeway from the Soviets than the rest of the Eastern Europe, as the Soviets did not want the West to directly see how their wonderland operates.
But that's what being part of the good old boy's club grants you. No matter how much you screw up, they will let you back in.
Now look at what had happened to the countries that do not belong to that club (those are the ones that came under Soviet management after war btw.). They fought the Germans and were abandoned so that papa Stalin would not get upset.

As others have said, Germany should've been totally destroyed and a third word country by now, not rebuilt and told they are forgiven.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Japan really got off easy.

 

[Jarlaxle]

No kidding. All the Axis countries did.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Andy636
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
WW2 was caused-entirely-by the Allies using half-measures against Germany after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles was harsh enough that everyone resented it, but not harsh enough to keep them cowed. Germany should have been stomped flat--reduced to deindustrialized, permanently-impoverished serfdom for a century.


+1 on that.

There are two sides of the story in every conflict and usually after the dust sets it's only the winner's side that you get to hear.

A lot of german ethnics in the territories that Germany lost after the Versailles treaty were treated like animals and nothing more.


And had the country been absolutely stomped flat-reduced to an impoverished, deindustrialized state of pre-industrial serfdom for a century- it would not have permitted the rise of Hitler.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No kidding. All the Axis countries did.

Did the Axis countries really get off easy, or was Stalin just a little spendy with his people, as it were?

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No kidding. All the Axis countries did.

Did the Axis countries really get off easy, or was Stalin just a little spendy with his people, as it were?


Well, he was but at that point in time there wasn't any other alternative. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Hitler himself ordered all able bodies, children, women and elderly alike to defend their homeland when push came to shove.