Are the secondary cats very important emmision wise?
Myth Busted: "Bad cat won't cause misfire"
- Thread starter DoubleWasp
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
The secondary cats won't ever cause a CEL. There is nothing monitoring them.
Better go back to the books. There is a down stream sensor after the main cats in most vehicles. The pre-cats in the manifolds or y-pipe are not monitored for efficiency, they just have the upstream o2 for monitoring the engines A/F ratio.
I guess it depends on what you're calling a "secondary" cat.
The secondary cats won't ever cause a CEL. There is nothing monitoring them.
Better go back to the books. There is a down stream sensor after the main cats in most vehicles. The pre-cats in the manifolds or y-pipe are not monitored for efficiency, they just have the upstream o2 for monitoring the engines A/F ratio.
I guess it depends on what you're calling a "secondary" cat.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Not running cats on a vehicle is a choice I cannot endorse. As others have noted it is irresponsible and bad for our air quality in general.
Imagine if everyone decided to do the same? Wonder what would happen? Want government inspections to come back? I sure don't.
Funny that in our fleet we have not replaced any cats in my memory. Even at 500k miles our last truck sold still had it's originals in place and working correctly.
The last time I replaced one was in a 1976 Dodge van where the screen blew out and the pellets clogged the muffler. I can only wonder what you folks are doing to ruin a converter, they are pretty hard to kill IME.
"In the United States it is a violation of Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the 1990 Clean Air Act for a vehicle repair shop to remove a converter from a vehicle, or cause a converter to be removed from a vehicle, except in order to replace it with another converter.,[26] and Section 203(a)(3)(B) makes it illegal for any person to sell or to install any part that would bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any emission control system, device, or design element."
Yep, we should all just disregard the laws and do whatever we want...
Come on. What exactly would one "do" to kill a cat, besides putting it in a plastic bag and throwing it in a canal? Specious reasoning much?
From talking to a Ford tech just today, I have learned that they are actually not hard to kill at all. First thing he said to me was, "Let me guess, it was the driver's side.", and went on to explain to me that he has handled plenty of warranty replacements on vehicles that had no issue at all when the cat failed. Doesn't sound very hard to kill to me.
The only problem this truck had was a failed cat. Everything else is and was properly functioning. No misfire. No overheating. No engine coolant. No leaded fuels. No stuck injectors. No nothing. Just a bad cat.
Don't even get me started on the EPA. They allow gross polluters to purchase the ecological savings from other companies and programs. It's not people removing the cats that's bad for the air quality. It's the EPA giving the stamp to corporations to do whatever they want, as long as they buy credits from someone else, or cause the aggravated damage outside of US borders.
If it's so important to have cats, then the great EPA should force the manufacturers to make them more durable, and warranty them for longer. If the EPA could care less about what happens after 80,000 miles, then why should I? The technology to build a nearly invincible converter has been used in the industrial sector for decades, but we keep getting [censored] that falls apart under numerous circumstances, or for no reason at all.
In the case of the Nissan QR25DE, the cat would fail for no reason, and destroy the engine along with itself.
With BMW SUV's, actually driving the things off-road in BMW's own off-road driving experience, they routinely ran into problems with the cat overheating and sending the engine straight into limp-home mode.
This is by far, not a proven, refined technology in the automobile. I am not going to pay the price for auto manufacturers and the EPA forcing people into a flawed component, and then forcing people to spend thousands in repairs upon it.
Not running cats on a vehicle is a choice I cannot endorse. As others have noted it is irresponsible and bad for our air quality in general.
Imagine if everyone decided to do the same? Wonder what would happen? Want government inspections to come back? I sure don't.
Funny that in our fleet we have not replaced any cats in my memory. Even at 500k miles our last truck sold still had it's originals in place and working correctly.
The last time I replaced one was in a 1976 Dodge van where the screen blew out and the pellets clogged the muffler. I can only wonder what you folks are doing to ruin a converter, they are pretty hard to kill IME.
"In the United States it is a violation of Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the 1990 Clean Air Act for a vehicle repair shop to remove a converter from a vehicle, or cause a converter to be removed from a vehicle, except in order to replace it with another converter.,[26] and Section 203(a)(3)(B) makes it illegal for any person to sell or to install any part that would bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any emission control system, device, or design element."
Yep, we should all just disregard the laws and do whatever we want...
Come on. What exactly would one "do" to kill a cat, besides putting it in a plastic bag and throwing it in a canal? Specious reasoning much?
From talking to a Ford tech just today, I have learned that they are actually not hard to kill at all. First thing he said to me was, "Let me guess, it was the driver's side.", and went on to explain to me that he has handled plenty of warranty replacements on vehicles that had no issue at all when the cat failed. Doesn't sound very hard to kill to me.
The only problem this truck had was a failed cat. Everything else is and was properly functioning. No misfire. No overheating. No engine coolant. No leaded fuels. No stuck injectors. No nothing. Just a bad cat.
Don't even get me started on the EPA. They allow gross polluters to purchase the ecological savings from other companies and programs. It's not people removing the cats that's bad for the air quality. It's the EPA giving the stamp to corporations to do whatever they want, as long as they buy credits from someone else, or cause the aggravated damage outside of US borders.
If it's so important to have cats, then the great EPA should force the manufacturers to make them more durable, and warranty them for longer. If the EPA could care less about what happens after 80,000 miles, then why should I? The technology to build a nearly invincible converter has been used in the industrial sector for decades, but we keep getting [censored] that falls apart under numerous circumstances, or for no reason at all.
In the case of the Nissan QR25DE, the cat would fail for no reason, and destroy the engine along with itself.
With BMW SUV's, actually driving the things off-road in BMW's own off-road driving experience, they routinely ran into problems with the cat overheating and sending the engine straight into limp-home mode.
This is by far, not a proven, refined technology in the automobile. I am not going to pay the price for auto manufacturers and the EPA forcing people into a flawed component, and then forcing people to spend thousands in repairs upon it.
C'mon, quoting a few outliers sounds a bit specious itself. The overwhelming majority of converters go about their lives in quiet service without a problem. That would be millions. Pstt, that's a lot!
You have an issue and you rip it off. Great idea. I'm sure you can rationalize it to death. But don't try and tell everyone that it is somehow warranted by your own ridiculous ideas on the subject..
You have an issue and you rip it off. Great idea. I'm sure you can rationalize it to death. But don't try and tell everyone that it is somehow warranted by your own ridiculous ideas on the subject..
So now I'm not supposed to remove a component that has failed and is not repairable on the vehicle? I must have missed something here. When did this practice begin? Is there some sort of wand you can hit these things with that makes them pop back together? Please look at the picture again, and explain to me exactly how that cat was ever going to work again, still mounted in the vehicle.
It is warranted by the simple fact that it did indeed fail, precipitated by exactly no problem with the vehicle, causing disability to the vehicle.
Please give me the technical procedure for resolving this situation without removing the converter from the vehicle.
It is warranted by the simple fact that it did indeed fail, precipitated by exactly no problem with the vehicle, causing disability to the vehicle.
Please give me the technical procedure for resolving this situation without removing the converter from the vehicle.
Haw. That's a good one.
Hey, I'm the first guy to say that it's your car you do what you want. But I personally feel it is important that folks keep their cars to at least comparable emissions than when under warranty. Hmmm, personal responsibility...
Vikas, it's loud and proud folks like DW here that will bring back state vehicle emissions testing and inspections. Ready for some extra taxes, long lines, etc? I lived in Fl when it was exactly like that! Didn't like it at all, but if everyone just discards parts as they fail we can expect the greenies to come back hard on us...
Hey, I'm the first guy to say that it's your car you do what you want. But I personally feel it is important that folks keep their cars to at least comparable emissions than when under warranty. Hmmm, personal responsibility...
Vikas, it's loud and proud folks like DW here that will bring back state vehicle emissions testing and inspections. Ready for some extra taxes, long lines, etc? I lived in Fl when it was exactly like that! Didn't like it at all, but if everyone just discards parts as they fail we can expect the greenies to come back hard on us...
Double post
Last edited:
I will ask you again: Please tell me exactly what should be done with a catalytic converter that has failed, as this one has, since it should not be removed upon failure according to you.
There is exactly nothing pending on any level of legislation even suggesting that emissions testing should return to our state. This is because everyone stopped caring, and nobody is going to start. This is a state that shuts down fire stations in the middle of a drought rather than raise taxes. [censored] will be wearing ice skates to the next emission test in florida.
The Chicken Little prophecy is all good and fine, until you stop and realize that you can't actually say that will be the result.
Florida is a very conservative state, and Rick Scott is a ludicrously conservative governor. Many of our state's LAWS are direct contradictions to Federal law. Complaining by the greenies is going to go absolutely no where, as has been the case for years. Everglades and wildlife preservation are topics everyone loves to get behind, but emissions testing? GTFO.
We're not going to spend thousands on this garbage to keep an invisible boogeyman man away.
And I'll have you know, I sold the cats to be RECYCLED. There's personal responsibility for you.
At the end of the day, what has been done here will change nothing in this world, and no harm will be done.
There is exactly nothing pending on any level of legislation even suggesting that emissions testing should return to our state. This is because everyone stopped caring, and nobody is going to start. This is a state that shuts down fire stations in the middle of a drought rather than raise taxes. [censored] will be wearing ice skates to the next emission test in florida.
The Chicken Little prophecy is all good and fine, until you stop and realize that you can't actually say that will be the result.
Florida is a very conservative state, and Rick Scott is a ludicrously conservative governor. Many of our state's LAWS are direct contradictions to Federal law. Complaining by the greenies is going to go absolutely no where, as has been the case for years. Everglades and wildlife preservation are topics everyone loves to get behind, but emissions testing? GTFO.
We're not going to spend thousands on this garbage to keep an invisible boogeyman man away.
And I'll have you know, I sold the cats to be RECYCLED. There's personal responsibility for you.
At the end of the day, what has been done here will change nothing in this world, and no harm will be done.
And that's the bush Steve keeps beating around. This was the only solution that made any sense, because there was no reasonable alternative.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2006
- Messages
- 2,326
But you are just ONE case. How can it be myth busted? Where have I heard that before?
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The myth that plenty of people believe is that a cat cannot cause misfire. This one did, so yes, myth busted.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The myth that plenty of people believe is that a cat cannot cause misfire. This one did, so yes, myth busted.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2006
- Messages
- 2,326
In other people's eyes, it's not reasonable. You are breaking the law and acknowledged that fact in your original post.
You took the cheap alternative.
Of course you have to remove the old cat to replace. You're being completely ridiculous by insinuating otherwise.
You also made no mention of using an aftermarket replacement. I did a quick search and found that MagnaFlow, a respected name in exhaust, makes an OEE cat, left side for just under $500 USD. Another quick search found that a Vibrant resonator cost you about $100 USD. So for about $400 more, you could have put on a SS and OEE cat. You would have factory sound levels and be emissions compliant; which means legal and not having to compromise your integrity by saying you hit a bump and your cats fell off.
Once a liar, always a liar. How many of your other posts have you been less than honest about?
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
And that's the bush Steve keeps beating around. This was the only solution that made any sense, because there was no reasonable alternative.
You took the cheap alternative.
Of course you have to remove the old cat to replace. You're being completely ridiculous by insinuating otherwise.
You also made no mention of using an aftermarket replacement. I did a quick search and found that MagnaFlow, a respected name in exhaust, makes an OEE cat, left side for just under $500 USD. Another quick search found that a Vibrant resonator cost you about $100 USD. So for about $400 more, you could have put on a SS and OEE cat. You would have factory sound levels and be emissions compliant; which means legal and not having to compromise your integrity by saying you hit a bump and your cats fell off.
Once a liar, always a liar. How many of your other posts have you been less than honest about?
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
And that's the bush Steve keeps beating around. This was the only solution that made any sense, because there was no reasonable alternative.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2006
- Messages
- 2,326
I give, you tell me.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what happens when you order the Magniflow and it still doesn't clear a code form the post cat O2?
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what happens when you order the Magniflow and it still doesn't clear a code form the post cat O2?
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
But you are just ONE case. How can it be myth busted? Where have I heard that before?
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The myth that plenty of people believe is that a cat cannot cause misfire. This one did, so yes, myth busted.
OK, since English comprehension is not your strong suit, here goes. When someone attempts to assert an absolute, it takes only one example to disprove an absolute.
But you are just ONE case. How can it be myth busted? Where have I heard that before?
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The myth that plenty of people believe is that a cat cannot cause misfire. This one did, so yes, myth busted.
OK, since English comprehension is not your strong suit, here goes. When someone attempts to assert an absolute, it takes only one example to disprove an absolute.
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I give, you tell me.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what happens when you order the Magniflow and it still doesn't clear a code form the post cat O2?
You're out a lot of money and still have the problem.
The new ECUs will test the cat by driving it very lean then driving it rich and see how long it takes to saturate the cat. If the aftermarket one has less capacity it will not pass the test and you are left with an insufficient cat efficacy code. Might as well just put in a test pipe.
I give, you tell me.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what happens when you order the Magniflow and it still doesn't clear a code form the post cat O2?
You're out a lot of money and still have the problem.
The new ECUs will test the cat by driving it very lean then driving it rich and see how long it takes to saturate the cat. If the aftermarket one has less capacity it will not pass the test and you are left with an insufficient cat efficacy code. Might as well just put in a test pipe.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2006
- Messages
- 2,326
Forget it. It was a joke that is lost on you. I wasn't sure if you would get it or not. Obviously not. Good to see you keep defaulting to insults. Relax. It's just an Internet forum. Good thing for me it wasn't a mom joke, ha?!?
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
OK, since English comprehension is not your strong suit, here goes. When someone attempts to assert an absolute, it takes only one example to disprove an absolute.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
OK, since English comprehension is not your strong suit, here goes. When someone attempts to assert an absolute, it takes only one example to disprove an absolute.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2006
- Messages
- 2,326
It was DoubleWasp crying Chicken Little and that's all you are doing with your hypothetical. We can go back and forth all week like that. It is a stainless steel, original equipment equivalent from a well known brand. I highly doubt there would be a problem. If there was, you figure it out. It costs money to operate a vehicle. Certainly don't want to compromise your integrity over it.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I give, you tell me.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what happens when you order the Magniflow and it still doesn't clear a code form the post cat O2?
You're out a lot of money and still have the problem.
The new ECUs will test the cat by driving it very lean then driving it rich and see how long it takes to saturate the cat. If the aftermarket one has less capacity it will not pass the test and you are left with an insufficient cat efficacy code. Might as well just put in a test pipe.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I give, you tell me.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what happens when you order the Magniflow and it still doesn't clear a code form the post cat O2?
You're out a lot of money and still have the problem.
The new ECUs will test the cat by driving it very lean then driving it rich and see how long it takes to saturate the cat. If the aftermarket one has less capacity it will not pass the test and you are left with an insufficient cat efficacy code. Might as well just put in a test pipe.
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
In other people's eyes, it's not reasonable. You are breaking the law and acknowledged that fact in your original post.
I'm not a repair shop, as referenced in the statute Steve posted.
Quote:
You took the cheap alternative.
Yeah, I saved the business money. So what?
Quote:
Of course you have to remove the old cat to replace. You're being completely ridiculous by insinuating otherwise.
Did you even read the whole thread?
Quote:
You also made no mention of using an aftermarket replacement.
Obviously you didn't. This has been covered several times throughout this thread.
Quote:
I did a quick search and found that MagnaFlow, a respected name in exhaust, makes an OEE cat, left side for just under $500 USD.
Does "respected name in exhaust" mean that it's going to work, or that people simply think highly of them because they make some good performance exhausts. K&N is a respected name inair filters, and Valvoline is a respected name in transmission fluids.
Quote:
Another quick search found that a Vibrant resonator cost you about $100 USD. So for about $400 more, you could have put on a SS and OEE cat.
And I could have spent that non-refundable sum and still had a CEL and inferior emissions performance. You want to take that gamble? You pony up the cash.
Quote:
You would have factory sound levels
I have that.
Quote:
and be emissions compliant;
Not for $1000.
Quote:
which means legal and not having to compromise your integrity by saying you hit a bump and your cats fell off.
Once a liar, always a liar. How many of your other posts have you been less than honest about?
You are such a drama queen.
In other people's eyes, it's not reasonable. You are breaking the law and acknowledged that fact in your original post.
I'm not a repair shop, as referenced in the statute Steve posted.
Quote:
You took the cheap alternative.
Yeah, I saved the business money. So what?
Quote:
Of course you have to remove the old cat to replace. You're being completely ridiculous by insinuating otherwise.
Did you even read the whole thread?
Quote:
You also made no mention of using an aftermarket replacement.
Obviously you didn't. This has been covered several times throughout this thread.
Quote:
I did a quick search and found that MagnaFlow, a respected name in exhaust, makes an OEE cat, left side for just under $500 USD.
Does "respected name in exhaust" mean that it's going to work, or that people simply think highly of them because they make some good performance exhausts. K&N is a respected name inair filters, and Valvoline is a respected name in transmission fluids.
Quote:
Another quick search found that a Vibrant resonator cost you about $100 USD. So for about $400 more, you could have put on a SS and OEE cat.
And I could have spent that non-refundable sum and still had a CEL and inferior emissions performance. You want to take that gamble? You pony up the cash.
Quote:
You would have factory sound levels
I have that.
Quote:
and be emissions compliant;
Not for $1000.
Quote:
which means legal and not having to compromise your integrity by saying you hit a bump and your cats fell off.
Once a liar, always a liar. How many of your other posts have you been less than honest about?
You are such a drama queen.
- Status
