My Tire Hyper-Inflation Story... What's Yours?

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Capri Racer,

Thank you for the kind words.

I have left out the psi that I am currently running for a reason. If an individual has an interest in a project like this, than it will be their responsibility to measure and determine its worth. As you know their is no silver bullet here.

But, I strongly believe that all tire inflation info is not shared with John Q Public. Thus, I have found a standard that works for me.

Safety First, Jim
 
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
Do Test Pilots & Engineers always agree?

I am not here to argue with the Book Smart of the forum. Just letting others know what I have found and am doing.

Jim


Actually - from personal experience flying flight test, the answer is YES. The best test pilots are engineers who understand the test objectives and are able to precisely achieve the test parameters for good results. Don't subscribe to the Hollywoood image of test pilots (or fighter pilots for that matter...).

There is no "Book Smart" vs. "Street Smart" in the world of aviation...the practical experience is one facet, the engineering another, of the same jewel...so, to claim that engineers are book smart without understanding the real world is disingenuous and misleading. Engineers spend their time in the practical...while theoretical physicists, for sxample, spend their time in the abstract.

Similarly, the single data point provided in your example (one model of tire, on one vehicle, operated on the street over thousands of miles) proves nothing from an engineering or test perspective. Other variables (weather, grade, road surface, traffic, speed, to name but a few) weren't controlled, so the conclusion is interesting, but unsupportable.

Auto manufacturers spend millions testing vehicles extensively. They use detailed testing equipment and control for dozens of variables and log millions of miles.

You're free to do what you like in your van, you're accepting the risk...but it is simply not comparable to the testing performed by the manufacturers.

I would caution anyone who intends to exceed published limits. Generally, in automobiles operated on the street, you just pull over when you blow a tire or frag the engine because you've exceeded limits...it's risky, but not generally fatal.

In aviation - it's often fatal...
 
Astroturf, in spite of your straw man and red herring responses I am enjoying this thread simply because you are talking in a calm manner, a very rare thing on the net these days.

Safety first, indeed
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
......But, I strongly believe that all tire inflation info is not shared with John Q Public. .....


I hope you realize that a lot of information generated within a tire manufacturer gives it a competitive edge. Let me give you an example:

Many years ago, our research department wanted to get a handle on snow traction. They took tires molded without tread patterns (slicks) and cut basic shapes into them. This was pretty expensive and time consuming.

What came out of this was that the old adage that lugs were needed for snow traction was completely false. Edges were the key. This was performed at a time where the European winter tires had lots of sipes, where the US snow tires didn't.

Needless to say, this was quickly adopted, and for a period of time we had a competitive advantage.

But there was another side to this that wasn't as clear - you could over-do the siping - and it would cause tread to be unstable in dry handling. So while our competitors might try to copy the original "extra edges" approach, what they didn't realize was that they were creating a dry traction problem for themselves. It took them a number of years to figure this out. - and by that time, it had become common knowledge, so there wasn't any point in publishing the fundamentals.

But back to the inflation pressure issue: Believe it or not, the car manufacturers are doing exactly that - except in a different way - one that doesn't cause them other problems. They are oversizing the tires. This has a simlar affect as increasing the inflation pressure, but without the drawback of poor ride qualities.

Ya' see, these things have to take place in small steps. The envelope is pushed gently to reveal problem areas. If anything, the aspect ratio envelope has been pushed too far too fast - but that's a whole 'nother issue.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I hope you realize that a lot of information generated within a tire manufacturer gives it a competitive edge.


Yes Sir I Do. As also I appreciate your Level Headed Responses.

Once Again, I am revealing my experience only for others to observation... Not for them to put them into practice.

What I am doing is a personal choice. And with any personal choice... Comes personal responsibility.

Thanks Again, Jim
 
Crank them up to 100 I want to see when they will pop, report back.

I'll wag they will burst at 100% over the max inflation pressure so what 80 pounds ish? Only one way to find out!
 
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Crank them up to 100 I want to see when they will pop, report back.

I'll wag they will burst at 100% over the max inflation pressure so what 80 pounds ish? Only one way to find out!


Sorry to disappoint, But this topic is about tuning.

Moving slowly with careful observation.

Let's try that first.

Best of luck, Jim
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Astroturf, in spite of your straw man and red herring responses I am enjoying this thread simply because you are talking in a calm manner, a very rare thing on the net these days.

Safety first, indeed
lol.gif




Thank you.

I have only Old Age, and a desire to help others to blame for that.

Jim

PS I Hate 2 Work also... LOLz
 
According to Michelin, the maximum safe tire pressure for a 215/70/R-16 LTX M/S is 35 psi (with a 99 load index and 1554 lbs weight capacity), and you're significantly above that just for the sake of about 1 mile per gallon? That apparently is the only thing you're objectively measuring. You're also likely dramatically lowering other vehicular handling characteristics in the process and especially sacrificing wet road performance. A tire that is significantly over inflated has a smaller contact patch with the road as the center of the tread only contacts the road.

If you're using these tires on a heavily loaded work Van, then you might want to really follow your own advice:

"safety first"

Good luck!
 
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Drew,

While I appreciate your concern. I assure you that Mpg is not my only goal, Nor my only benefit.

Wet weather traction has not suffered.
I am not traveling on the center of the tire tread.
My tire operating temperatures are reduced.
My tire impact/ride comfort has not suffered.
These tires, Just as my last set, Will last well past any mileage guarantee. (ie I'll get far more than 50,000 miles out of them)

Please Remember Though...

I am a simple man conducting simple tests. These tests are now being conducted on my second set of tires.

I would not recommend this type of activity to anyone.

Jim

PS I like this little safety slogan that I created years ago, for my then current employer...

Safety is, as Safety does.
 
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Originally Posted By: AstroTurf

Wet weather traction has not suffered.
I am not traveling on the center of the tire tread.
My tire operating temperatures are reduced.
My tire impact/ride comfort has not suffered.


Got any objective test results to back that up?
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf

Wet weather traction has not suffered.
I am not traveling on the center of the tire tread.
My tire operating temperatures are reduced.
My tire impact/ride comfort has not suffered.


Got any objective test results to back that up?


Just my own (larger than it should be) Seat O' Pants Meter.

LOLz, Jim
 
My experience with tire pressure is much difference with yours, AstroTurf.

The car is 2000 MB E430 with UHP 235/45-17 with max pressure on sidewall at 51 PSI. The performance/handling was best with 2-6 PSI above placard.

For speed up to 100 MPH the pressure on placard is 32F/33R, for speed above 100 MPH the pressure is 36F/42R.

For normal local highway speed of 65-80 MPH the best compromise of performance/handling, steering respond, ride, fuel economy, tread wear, I set the pressure at 38F/36R.

For long trip to Vegas I set the pressure at 42F/44R and the car was very stable at speed north of 100 MPH even with strong cross wind. Once I set the pressure at 48F/48R last Sept the car was very unstable when I was at speed above 100 MPH with some cross wind on the way to Vegas. I reduced the pressure down to 42F/42R when I was in Vegas, the car gained the composure at similar speed with stronger cross wind on the way back home.

My experience clearly telling me that the best pressure is few PSI above placard, much more than that the performance/handling suffers. The only advantage is the fuel economy.
 
HTSS_TR,

Great Story. Thanks for Sharing.

Jim

PS I like that the MFGs of higher quality/performance cars post different psi figures based on the driving conditions. My Wife's Honda Prelude was the same. Going from 29 psi cold or 41 psi cold.
 
Thanks for your time. I have 2006 toyota camry v6. Its call for 29 PSI all around. I have BridgeStone Turanza Serenity. I use Craftsman digital Pressure guage and set it 33 PSI cold.. I don't know how accurate my guage is, but the ride is so good and smooth.
 
Thanks Moto,

I am not sure where you could go to check the calibration of a psi gauge though. Maybe someone else will chime in.

Thanks Again, Jim
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
If you live to see the wear pattern alone on grossly overinflated tires, you will re-calculate your 'savings'. Especially on the vehicles with some kind of intricate suspension system that were engineered to work best in a certain range. Safety was mentioned above, and is the concern number one.

Not all amateurs are dilettantes, though..
I've heard many people mention this alleged "wear pattern" on over-inflated tires.

But here's my idea. I set my tires to the "Max Cold PSI" outlined on the tire sidewall. Yes, they say this is bad, and will affect the wear pattern (generally down the middle of the tread they say).....but here's my idea.


As I drive this vehicle, my PSI is gradually decreasing (no I don't use nitrogen), as the PSI naturally decreases, the tire will "come back down" to normal, to wear along what these nay-sayers would call the "outer edges" of the tire(s)....




Now granted, if someone were completely OCD about their PSI, and "topped off" their PSI at the "Cold PSI" rating EVERY DAY, not allowing the vehicle to "wear" along that edge, that's when I could envision "wear pattern problems".


But for me, I do my maintenance every 6-8 months on my vehicle and have not had any problem(s) with odd tire wear....


I guess, in a way it's a similar concept to those that will "overfill" their crankcase by a half-quart to take into consideration the "burn off" or oil leakage they need to fix?
smile.gif
By putting my tires at the Max PSI per the tire every 6-8 months I've seen no problems.
 
Originally Posted By: ahoier
Originally Posted By: Y_K
If you live to see the wear pattern alone on grossly overinflated tires, you will re-calculate your 'savings'. Especially on the vehicles with some kind of intricate suspension system that were engineered to work best in a certain range. Safety was mentioned above, and is the concern number one.

Not all amateurs are dilettantes, though..
I've heard many people mention this alleged "wear pattern" on over-inflated tires.

But here's my idea. I set my tires to the "Max Cold PSI" outlined on the tire sidewall. Yes, they say this is bad, and will affect the wear pattern (generally down the middle of the tread they say).....but here's my idea.


As I drive this vehicle, my PSI is gradually decreasing (no I don't use nitrogen), as the PSI naturally decreases, the tire will "come back down" to normal, to wear along what these nay-sayers would call the "outer edges" of the tire(s)....




Now granted, if someone were completely OCD about their PSI, and "topped off" their PSI at the "Cold PSI" rating EVERY DAY, not allowing the vehicle to "wear" along that edge, that's when I could envision "wear pattern problems".


But for me, I do my maintenance every 6-8 months on my vehicle and have not had any problem(s) with odd tire wear....


I guess, in a way it's a similar concept to those that will "overfill" their crankcase by a half-quart to take into consideration the "burn off" or oil leakage they need to fix?
smile.gif
By putting my tires at the Max PSI per the tire every 6-8 months I've seen no problems.


So...your strategy to achieve the optimum pressure is to start way above it...then through an unmeasured, and unknown leak rate and seasonal pressure variation, hope to intersect that value in only a transitory manner, and then just go way above it again? Why not try and stay at optimum?

Do you ever check your oil level? Or do you just overfill and hope for the best 8 months down the road?

Here's my recommendation: determine the pressure and then check it cold, at least monthly, to account for leakage and variations in pressure based on seasonal temperature changes...that way, you will always be at/near optimum, instead of way off most of the time. Futher, if you pick up a nail or develop a slow leak, you will catch it before your handling and safety are affected.

And yes, running 38 PSI (sidewall max, 51, manufacturer placard recommended max 38) in the 235/45R17 Fuzion ZRi tires on my T5 Volvo, I wore out the center of the tread before the edges. A difference of nearly 2/32" in tread wear from center to edge. Clearly too high a pressure for my conditions. I now run 36 PSI in the 235/45R17 Conti DWS and they are wearing evenly with 8,000 miles on them...giving me the optimum blend of treadwear, handling and economy (I get EPA or better in the car...if I can resist using all the boost the turbo offers...).

Taking the purchase price of tires into consideration ($500 mounted and balanced), the life that the Fuzions lasted (30K) and the original tread depth (10/32)...the uneven treadwear cut about 20% of the life off the Fuzions...costing me over $100 in premature wear. That alone is enough to make checking frequently a worthwhile maintenance practice...and a tread depth gauge is about $5, while a good pressure gauge is $10...a cheap investment.

For the record, on an airplane, where tires go from -65 degrees C and zero MPH to nearly 200 MPH with several tons of loading in thousandths of a second (and can easily heat up to over 300 degrees C during braking), several orders of magnitude greater strain in load, temperature and speed than car tires, I check the pressure on every flight.
 
ahoier,

Thank you for your story.

Jim

PS You know what Guys? This kinda reminds me of Oil Change Intervals.

As long as we all are doing what works for ourselves, Then we are more active than most.
 
I think this one is very different. For the oil change intervals, the only risk is premature engine failure...the risk of your experimentation is limited to your wallet. Science, analysis and experience can help you avoid that risk...but in the end, a worn engine is a risk limited to the experimenter.

For tire pressure, however, the risk of failure is a loss of vehicle control. That risk is borne by those with whom you share a public road. Engaging in risky practices where vehicle control is concerned is not the same as risking the longevity of your engine.

As an example, what if I wanted to determine the ultimate longevity of tie rod ends by driving my car past the point where I knew they were worn, until they failed? When one finally broke, I would lose control. When I crashed into somebody/something, that person would have every right to sue me for negligence...for knowingly engaging in a practice that subjected them to the excess risk.

I do not accept that anyone has the right to subject others to excess risk...and the law does not accept it either....
 
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