Motul 300V 0W40 or M1 0W40 ?

[DeepFriar]

I posted earlier that I have used 300V and, like everyone else, I have also used M1 along with many others along the way. I will reluctantly add the following to the discussion.

I say reluctantly because the data points are years old. About three years ago I had a long (well, 45 min) conversation with a MotulUSA engineer in Pomona. I was also concerned about just leaving 300V in the sump for street driving. After a lot of hemming and hawwing he told me that 300V has "a 12% street adpack" and that it was completely useable as a street oil. However the OCI should not be pushed as far as their "regular" oil. He finally said 5000 miles but it sounded like a throwaway line at the time.

I had no way to evaluate the "12%" data point and still don't hence my reluctance to comment. I have heard others on here mention adpacks as high as 30% but I have no way to eval that either.

I used 300V only once as a street oil and I have to say that the four banger I was using it in never ran smoother in its entire life. And certainly smoother than the obviously thinner M1 (both 10-40 IIRC). Full stop. That does not say that it is any *better* than M1 at doing the things we need oil to do. I just don't know that.

In the end though, and for the street, the 300V price here can not be justified without a real validated need. At the same price? 300V.

 

[userfriendly]

The old 0W40 M1 is likely on it's last legs anyway, replaced with 229.52 MB 5W30 super 3000 XE which also meets Dexos 2.

Is there a XW40 229.52 yet?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
The old 0W40 M1 is likely on it's last legs anyway, replaced with 229.52 MB 5W30 super 3000 XE which also meets Dexos 2.

Is there a XW40 229.52 yet?

229.52 is a low SAPS spec. It does not replace 229.5 spec, which is full SAPS. These are two different/independent specs.

Also, the 229.52 only allows Xw-30 grades, so there is not going to be any Xw-40 oils meeting it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
The old 0W40 M1 is likely on it's last legs anyway, replaced with 229.52 MB 5W30 super 3000 XE which also meets Dexos 2.

Is there a XW40 229.52 yet?


Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[userfriendly]

High saps oils are going the way of the Dodo bird as fast as they can be replaced and taken off the market.

Perhaps that is news to some people, who hold dear engine oils like a child to an old Teddy Bear.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
High saps oils are going the way of the Dodo bird as fast as they can be replaced and taken off the market.

Perhaps that is news to some people, who hold dear engine oils like a child to an old Teddy Bear.


Not with the current quality of fuels in North America (and various other parts of the world) they aren't. But hey, at least it gave you an excuse to be a ****, right?

 

[volodymyr]

OVERKILL,

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Not with the current quality of fuels in North America (and various other parts of the world) they aren't.


I am actually seeing also Full SAPS oils in places where fuel quantity is good. We have Euro 5 fuels with 10 ppm of sulfur and OD still was using ACEA A3/B4 oil in my car which specifies ACEA C1, C2 and C3 as acceptable specs along with A1, A3 and A5.

The overall subject of sulfated ash makes me worrying, I saw in another thread that M1 0W-40 has 1.3 % of sulphated ash which is getting closer to 1.6% (ACEA-12 limit for A3/B4). There is not so much info in internet about the way how sulphated ash influences aftertreatment devices. Many articles say that zink and phosphorus are slowly killing them and around 1% of sulphated ash is more or less the best quantity, if it is higher the impact is higher.

Any ideas on what should be the best value to balance engine wear and aftertreatment devices life?

 

[volodymyr]

Popsy,

Originally Posted By: Popsy

Recommended oil is some exotic 10W40 Selenia full synth. Don't know it's HTHS to compare with M1 or Shell 0W40, could be interesting. Specifications are outdated, If I remember correctly API SG.


I checked the prices on Delti web-site (123pneus.fr) and indeed Shell 0W-40 seems to be the best deal in terms of price. If I would be you, I would also check the specs for all your cars and choose the right spec of oil which will cover them all. Once you do that, you can simply buy right quantity of the oil which will suit them best and it will be handy in case of top-ups.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Gotta love marketing, but it must be working well for XOM.

Yes. How M1 TDT goes for $50 a jug and Delvac 1 half that is another one of those marketing mysteries.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
OVERKILL,

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Not with the current quality of fuels in North America (and various other parts of the world) they aren't.


I am actually seeing also Full SAPS oils in places where fuel quantity is good. We have Euro 5 fuels with 10 ppm of sulfur and OD still was using ACEA A3/B4 oil in my car which specifies ACEA C1, C2 and C3 as acceptable specs along with A1, A3 and A5.

The overall subject of sulfated ash makes me worrying, I saw in another thread that M1 0W-40 has 1.3 % of sulphated ash which is getting closer to 1.6% (ACEA-12 limit for A3/B4). There is not so much info in internet about the way how sulphated ash influences aftertreatment devices. Many articles say that zink and phosphorus are slowly killing them and around 1% of sulphated ash is more or less the best quantity, if it is higher the impact is higher.

Any ideas on what should be the best value to balance engine wear and aftertreatment devices life?


I think at least part of it greatly depends on the aftertreatment devices in question, however a lubricant with 1.3% SA isn't generally "bad" for aftertreatment devices like catalysts, but it may be less than ideal for some of them. However, that's where you have to look at the local fuel quality too, where mid and low SAPS oils may not be adequate for anything resembling the factory OCI (like here in North America) and subsequently cars that call for a low or mid-SAPS oils have the recommendation to full SAPS.

The bigger issue (IMHO) is consumption. If you've got a car that uses 1/2 a litre between 10,000 mile OCI's the amount of Zinc/Phos getting into the exhaust is very little. On the other hand, you've got cars out there (like many of the pre 03/00 M5's) that drink oil like a sailor into the Bourbon. One of the cars I looked at was 1L/800Km

And that was "normal" for those cars. They are going to pollute the catalyst far faster on the lowest SAPS oil in existence than a car with far lower consumption will on a full-SAPS oil.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
OVERKILL,

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Not with the current quality of fuels in North America (and various other parts of the world) they aren't.


I am actually seeing also Full SAPS oils in places where fuel quantity is good. We have Euro 5 fuels with 10 ppm of sulfur and OD still was using ACEA A3/B4 oil in my car which specifies ACEA C1, C2 and C3 as acceptable specs along with A1, A3 and A5.

The overall subject of sulfated ash makes me worrying, I saw in another thread that M1 0W-40 has 1.3 % of sulphated ash which is getting closer to 1.6% (ACEA-12 limit for A3/B4). There is not so much info in internet about the way how sulphated ash influences aftertreatment devices. Many articles say that zink and phosphorus are slowly killing them and around 1% of sulphated ash is more or less the best quantity, if it is higher the impact is higher.

Any ideas on what should be the best value to balance engine wear and aftertreatment devices life?

Phosphorus is what is poisoning for the CATs, SA is only dangerous for particle filters. When using a full SAPS oil in a petrol car CAT may or may not last for the entire life of the car. If you remember fifteen years back it wasn't uncommon to change fouled cat after 200k. Of course lower quality fuel had some part in it too.
With introduction of low sulphur fuel OEMs took opportunity to prolong CATs life, making them de facto non serviceable item with use of then new ACEA C range of categories.
With right fuel there's no advantage of using full SAPS oils in a car.

 

[volodymyr]

chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
With right fuel there's no advantage of using full SAPS oils in a car.


Fuel in my area is right (Euro 5). The only advantage of Full SAPS the way I see it is the fact that all three of my engines are flat tappets

I've heard bad stories of using oils with low ZDDP in this engine designs.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chrisri

With right fuel there's no advantage of using full SAPS oils in a car.


That may depend on the car/engine combo and the demands on the oil placed by it. An engine that was never designed for low or mid SAPS, I would be concerned about potential wear issues if it is of the non-roller follower design.

Those concerns may be misplaced, but perhaps not. BMW IIRC, did not back-spec LL-04 to the LL-01 cars. But they did, on the other hand, re-spec LL-04 cars to LL-01 when sold in parts of the world that had poorer quality fuels.

Are there examples of Euro marques back-spec'ing any of their older vehicles to low or mid SAPS lubricants?

 

[chrisri]

OVERKILL, a full SAPS oil will not protect engine in any way better than a low/mid SAPS oil until TBN is depleted , which in EU won't happen with a low SAPS oil in a 20-30k km OCI depending on a engine design. Oil viscosity drop, and oil contamination is limiting factor here.
In 06-07 OEMs made a switch to a low/mid SAPS oil without making any changes to their engines in that respect. Also there are millions test mules on the road using this oils that are flat tappet and turbocharged. To be honest 90% of,European engines are flat tappet, and ALL diesels (in some countries they make 80% of the market share) are turbocharged.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
OVERKILL, a full SAPS oil will not protect engine in any way better than a low/mid SAPS oil until TBN is depleted


Unless the engine requires higher levels of Zn/Ph to prevent premature tappet wear. Admittedly, this is unlikely, but certainly possible.

Not as much of an issue for OHC engines generally, though I'm sure there are unique examples.

06-07 changeover, they would have been planning for years and done plenty of testing prior to that point. I'm more interested in if older engines were back-spec'd to low or mid SAPS, similar to how many engines in North America were back-spec'd to 5w-20 after extensive testing.

 

[OVERKILL]

As an addition, even the ACEA notes that these oils are not suitable for use in some engines:

http://www.lubtech.jp/20090105_081211_ACEA_Oil_Sequences_Final.pdf

Originally Posted By: ACEA

C : Catalyst compatibility oils

C1 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines requiring low friction, low viscosity, low SAPS oils with a
minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9 mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles fuel
economy.

Warning: these oils have the lowest SAPS limits and are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or
handbook if in doubt.

C2 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines designed to be capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils
with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles fuel
economy.

Warning: these oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

C3 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines, with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 3.5mPa.s. These oils will
increase the DPF and TWC life.

Warning: these oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

C4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines requiring low SAPS oil with a minimum HTHS viscosity of
3.5mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life.

Warning: these oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

SAPS : Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, Sulphur
DPF : Diesel Particulate Filter
TWC : Three way catalyst
HTHS : High temperature / High shear rate viscosity

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: chrisri
OVERKILL, a full SAPS oil will not protect engine in any way better than a low/mid SAPS oil until TBN is depleted


Unless the engine requires higher levels of Zn/Ph to prevent premature tappet wear. Admittedly, this is unlikely, but certainly possible.

Not as much of an issue for OHC engines generally, though I'm sure there are unique examples.

06-07 changeover, they would have been planning for years and done plenty of testing prior to that point. I'm more interested in if older engines were back-spec'd to low or mid SAPS, similar to how many engines in North America were back-spec'd to 5w-20 after extensive testing.

IIRC all MINIs are specd for use of LL-04, even the early ones. Probably all BMW after 02-03 are LL-04.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
As an addition, even the ACEA notes that these oils are not suitable for use in some engines:

http://www.lubtech.jp/20090105_081211_ACEA_Oil_Sequences_Final.pdf

Originally Posted By: ACEA

C : Catalyst compatibility oils

C1 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines requiring low friction, low viscosity, low SAPS oils with a
minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9 mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles fuel
economy.

Warning: these oils have the lowest SAPS limits and are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or
handbook if in doubt.

C2 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines designed to be capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils
with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles fuel
economy.

Warning: these oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

C3 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines, with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 3.5mPa.s. These oils will
increase the DPF and TWC life.

Warning: these oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

C4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high
performance car and light van diesel and gasoline engines requiring low SAPS oil with a minimum HTHS viscosity of
3.5mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life.

Warning: these oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

SAPS : Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, Sulphur
DPF : Diesel Particulate Filter
TWC : Three way catalyst
HTHS : High temperature / High shear rate viscosity


C1 and C2 are oils with lower HT-HS. That alone makes them unsuitable for most engines. C1 on top of that is really low SAPS (0.5% limit) which, I admit is a bit low for older machines with older fuel managements. Those used more fuel. Similar warnings you can find with A1/B1/A5/B5.
C3 oils with HT-HS of minimum 3.5 and SAPS level of 0.8 is adequate enough for most engines.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: chrisri
OVERKILL, a full SAPS oil will not protect engine in any way better than a low/mid SAPS oil until TBN is depleted


Unless the engine requires higher levels of Zn/Ph to prevent premature tappet wear. Admittedly, this is unlikely, but certainly possible.

Not as much of an issue for OHC engines generally, though I'm sure there are unique examples.

06-07 changeover, they would have been planning for years and done plenty of testing prior to that point. I'm more interested in if older engines were back-spec'd to low or mid SAPS, similar to how many engines in North America were back-spec'd to 5w-20 after extensive testing.

IIRC all MINIs are specd for use of LL-04, even the early ones. Probably all BMW after 02-03 are LL-04.


And that ties into my earlier point, not in North America.

Go to the Mobil USA site, put in a 2011 BMW, you'll get a note saying the car requires LL-01. Put in a 2012 Mini, you get:

Originally Posted By: Mobil
Based on what you've told us, your vehicle manufacturer recommends a 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30 or 5W-40 viscosity and oil that meets BMW Longlife-01, BMW Longlife-98 or ACEA A3. A 5W-50 viscosity can also be used. We offer these motor oils to help protect your vehicle.


Go to the BMW USA site, click on the 2015 BMW, download the owners manual, navigate to the engine oil section, the gas engine requires LL-01 or LL-01 FE, the diesel gets LL-04. You'll see the same thing for 2014 and 2013.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chrisri

C1 and C2 are oils with lower HT-HS. That alone makes them unsuitable for most engines. C1 on top of that is really low SAPS (0.5% limit) which, I admit is a bit low for older machines with older fuel managements. Those used more fuel.


I just included the whole section, the C3 one is the one of interest though of course.

Originally Posted By: chrisri

Similar warnings you can find with A1/B1/A5/B5.


But not the same:

Originally Posted By: ACEA

A/B : gasoline and diesel engine oils

A1/B1 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in gasoline engines and car & light van diesel
engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a high temperature / high shear rate
viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s for xW/20 and 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s for all other viscosity grades. These oils are unsuitable for use in
some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

A3/B3 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines
and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of low viscosity
oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer.

A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline and direct injection diesel engines, but also
suitable for applications described under A3/B3.

A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in high performance gasoline engines and car
& light van diesel engines designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a High temperature / High
shear rate (HTHS) viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s. These oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual
or handbook if in doubt.


The warning is only present for A1/B1 and A5/B5

Quote:
C3 oils with HT-HS of minimum 3.5 and SAPS level of 0.8 is adequate enough for most engines.


I don't know if I'd go that far. All documentation I've found says to adhere to the verbiage found in your owners manual. If your manual allows you to use a lower-SAPS oil, then you are good to go, if it doesn't, don't. One cannot assume that it will be good enough.

The situation is even more different in North America with applications that spec low or mid-SAPS oils in Europe spec'ing full-SAPS oils here

(like the BMW examples I just cited).