Malaysian 777 shot down over Ukraine

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I don't know much about the time stamps, but do the time stamps show time zones?


No they don't, but that's a good question. I'm thinking that creation_time is created by camera device or video editing software (=in ukrainian time), but I'm not sure. Could someone clarify?

This tapped discussion was dated to wednesday evening, which is also "interesting".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Andy636
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
If it wasn't for the USA, most of Europe would unfortunately be speaking German today ...


That is one cocky statement right there...let's not forget that the victory in Europe over the germans was an allied combined effort and that the russians did most of the heavy lifting.

If the germans would of succeeded in taking over russia, you can be sure that by 1950 the USA would of folded under the japo and nazy combined hammering.


While it's a card nobody is proud to have had our country play, there was a window of a few years in which only the US had deployable nuclear weapons.
President Truman gave a practical demonstration of his willingness to use them.
The US also had aircraft capable of delivering these ghastly bombs.
No other country had either.
Japan felt the wrath of the US twice.
A Germany victorious in Europe would have been next.
Neither the Germans nor the Japanese had any hardware with which they could hammer the continental US, while the US could reach out and touch Japan easily and German cities suffered day after day of aerial bombardment by American and British planes escorted by fighters able to deal with the best the Luftwafe could get. While German fighters appeared to be very advanced in 1939, by 1944 they were outclassed by newer American designs powered with newer design engines. Rolls Royce may have designed the Merlin V-12, but Packard made it better and in huge volume. Germany was set to fight a continental war, while the US had planned for an intercontinental one, spanning the Atlantic and the Pacific. The differences in naval and air capability show this and derive from it.
By the late stages of the war, Germany was also out of experienced pilots, so even things like jet fighters were of no help, and more of these were shot down by American P-51s than were able to score victories over the aircraft comprising the allied figter/bomber formations.
A German victory over the Soviets would have also been unsustainable.
Rusia isn't Austria and the Russians have never been called cowardly. Germany would not have been able to maintain an occupation of Russia given the vast size of the nation as well as the unwillingness of its people to accept it.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
This tapped discussion was dated to wednesday evening, which is also "interesting".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw

I posted it a few pages back.

And while I obviously don't agree with what they did, the guy at the end has a valid point: what was that plane even doing there in the first place. It's a war zone.

Yes, I get that it was supposed to be a free fly zone above 32k feet, but it's a freaking war zone. Bullets will fly. It's like walking through a burning forest, expecting the flames not to spread.

 

[Shannow]

Aviation "expert" on the idjit box this morning is stressing that the plane had every right to use that corridor, and Malaysian and any number of carriers (lower cost) are using it...also stressed that each flight has to have a flight plan lodged and approved...and that the more costly liners like QANTAS are taking the long way around

Personally, I agree with the Miyagi defence - best defence is no be there.

To that end, one Oz family has lost members to both Malaysian Airlines tragedies...that beggars belief in my books.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
This tapped discussion was dated to wednesday evening, which is also "interesting".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw


And while I obviously don't agree with what they did, the guy at the end has a valid point: what was that plane even doing there in the first place. It's a war zone.

Yes, I get that it was supposed to be a free fly zone above 32k feet, but it's a freaking war zone. Bullets will fly. It's like walking through a burning forest, expecting the flames not to spread.


Yes and no. This was not a declared war between different countries or even a typical civil war. This was seemingly an internal security struggle. The regular bullets or missiles don't fly 10 km high. Who knew the rebels would be secretly armed with powerful long range SAMs (well, Putin knew it, but he kept it to himself)? Now we know, so it's easy to see it in retrospect. Airlines had to learn this hard way. I'm told that some western airlines have been avoiding Ukraine for some time. Malaysia was probably too busy looking for their (still) missing plane to notice. I wonder if their insurance covers war related loses.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Yes and no. This was not a declared war between different countries or even a typical civil war. This was seemingly an internal security struggle.

Semantics.

Quote:
The regular bullets or missiles don't fly 10 km high.

Regular? Is there ever anything regular about an armed conflict like this?

Malaysian Air was trying to save a buck by flying the shortest route. Sad that 298 souls paid the ultimate price.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Malaysian Air was trying to save a buck by flying the shortest route. Sad that 298 souls paid the ultimate price.


Sure, blame the victims.

 

[Quattro Pete]

The victims are the passengers and crew. Where did I blame them? They did not choose the route.

 

[Mystic]

Just because a Russian anti-aircraft launcher with two missiles is on its way back to Russia does not mean anything. There could still be at least one such missile launcher still in the rebel held territory. And that launcher could have fired the missile that downed the Malaysian airliner. The launcher on its way back to Russia may have been in need of maintenance, to give just one possibility. All of this argument about metadata timestamps and all of that means nothing.

The mere fact that such a missile launcher is being transported back into Russia should speak volumes to anybody paying attention. Advanced weapons systems are going back and forth from Russia into the rebel held area.

Unless we are being lied to (which would be a very stupid thing to do) there is positive evidence that the anti-aircraft missile was fired from rebel held territory. They can determine that from radar and satellites and so forth. Exactly where the airliner was when it was hit is something that is not certain right now. But apparently the airliner was still in Ukrainian airspace. It did not go straight down. It stayed somewhat intact and travelled some distance before crashing. Proof that it did not go straight down-many of the bodies of victims were fairly intact and the wreckage was some nine miles across. If the airliner had gone straight into the earth it would have looked liked the fourth airliner that was hijacked during 9-11.

European investigators who were allowed to go to the crash site were treated with hostility by the rebels. There is a report that warning shots were even shot at them. They were allowed to examine the wreckage for only about 45 minutes or so. If the rebels are blameless they should have nothing to hide and no reason to prevent an investigation of the aircraft wreckage.

There was a report that the black boxes were taken to Russia-but later the story became that the boxes had not been found. And then the story seemed to change again. Somebody is not being honest. If a story keeps changing there is lying going on. There is only one true story.

The rebels have not even properly secured the crash site. There may even have been looting at the website, and there are photos of local people walking around the wreckage and on the wreckage. All of this alone should cause some problems for the rebels and Putin. Because Putin should be making sure there is a good investigation of the wreckage. How does anybody think the relatives of the victims are going to feel when they see people wandering around and on the wreckage and among the bodies?

 

[Mystic]

I think we also need to put faces on the victims. There were scientists on their way to an AIDS conference in Australia. There was a very intelligent woman who was studying chemistry. There was a woman who owned a floral shop. There were people who owned a restaurant. And a talented DJ.

If Putin was really smart maybe he should show a little more respect for the victims. He should inform the rebels about all of that.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
If Putin was really smart maybe he should show a little more respect for the victims. He should inform the rebels about all of that.


Vanity. With no one stepping up and actually making a serious effort of stopping Russia, Putin has no respect for anyone outside of Russia at this point.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
European investigators who were allowed to go to the crash site were treated with hostility by the rebels. There is a report that warning shots were even shot at them. They were allowed to examine the wreckage for only about 45 minutes or so. If the rebels are blameless they should have nothing to hide and no reason to prevent an investigation of the aircraft wreckage.


Can you se what position the rebel currently have? The blame is now on them and current ukrainian regime will probably get support from west to get rid of them. If Russia won't let them move there, they're practically walking dead now. You might behave irratically with back against wall and waiting a bullet hit your head.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The victims are the passengers and crew. Where did I blame them? They did not choose the route.


But it seems that they sent the same flight the next day over the same route...or it had the same flight time as always, while going the long way round

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
But it seems that they sent the same flight the next day over the same route...or it had the same flight time as always, while going the long way round

Next day's flight went further south over Romania and Black Sea instead of over Ukraine, but you know that there are many things that can affect flight time... head/tail wind, speed, traffic congestion, etc.

 

[Nebroch]

Info about Buk-M1 system on local newspaper, translation is mine:

"All in all, Buk-system consists of four units: surveillance radar vehicle, command post vehicle, TELAR (missile launcher+radar) vehicle and missile transport vehicle.

When used together, the system can distinguish a civil aircraft from military planes.

TELAR vehicle can also be used independently, but then its ability to identify a goal is reduced and the risk to fire against a wrong target will rise, says Pulkki.

"TELAR's radar can only tell that there is a plane flying in there. Subsequently, the missile can be locked on to it, and fired", tells Pulkki.

"If TELAR is used by one person or otherwise ill-trained team without the support of separate surveillance radar vehicle and command link, it is very possible that the target's quality and altitude are not exactly clear." "

http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/Buk-j%C3%A4rjestelm%C3%A4ll%C3%A4+osuu+matkustajakoneesen+l%C3%A4hes+sataprosenttisella+varmuudella/a1405658289924

Pulkki is a some kind of weapon system specialist, I'm not sure if he has worked with Buk-systems of Finnish Army. If TELAR's altitude reading for MH17 was inaccurate, operator might have thought it was a military plane in no-fly zone . Reportedly MH17 was flying 1 000 feet above restricted zone, at 33 000 feet.

edit. For unknown reasons, MH17 was asked to descend to that altitude from 35 000 feet.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malay...3000ft-says-mas

 

[Andy636]

And on a more grim side...they are doing such a shat job at securing the the wreck site that the local scumbaggss are looting the dead bodies that where left there and still lay in the field.

 

[Astro14]

US airlines have been avoiding Ukrainian airspace since April.

The SA-11 system is capable of determining altitude, or friend from foe, if it is employed by an experienced operator, and as designed, with all the system elements operating.

 

[Mystic]

I think the so called 'rebels' and Putin are making a very bad mistake the way they are treating the remains of the passengers and crew of that airliner. They are allowing photography to take place of the wreckage while the tough guy 'rebels' strut around with their automatic weapons. Maybe Putin has no understanding of human emotions but all of this is being observed very carefully by the rest of the world.

What time of the year is it? It is summertime! I am not trying to be gruesome. They have bodies in body bags by the side of the road. How long are they going to just leave human bodies in body bags and in fields? The so called 'rebels' and Putin show totally no respect for the dead. I realize that this is a battle zone. But if they can haul tanks, anti-aircraft weapons, and rockets back and forth between Russia and the 'rebel' held area they should be able to transport 298 bodies of human beings to refrigerated mortuaries. This is not Roman times when the dead might be just left in the fields of battle. Does somebody really have to explain all of this to Putin and the 'rebels?'

You essentially have criminals guarding their own crime scene. There appears to be adequate information at this point that the anti-aircraft missile that shot down this airliner was fired from 'rebel' controlled territory. You have people being photographed standing on wreckage of a civilian airliner as if it is a prized trophy catch. There are reports of looting having taken place at the crash scene. The tough guy 'rebels' with their automatic weapons are unable to secure the crash scene?

I think I have heard three different stories about what has happened to the black boxes. There is evidence that some aircraft parts have been removed from the crash scene and taken somewhere-perhaps to Russia. They are probably trying to get rid of the evidence that the airliner was shot down by a missile. But that is hard to do. You have to find all of the ball bearings and remove telltale chemical traces and any remaining missile parts. The human remains are also evidence. And now the bodies have been laying there for how long?

Meanwhile the 'rebels' are hindering any professional examination of the wreckage. Is this how aircraft accidents are investigated in Russia?

The entire world is watching. And we are learning a lot about Putin and the 'rebels.'

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Info about Buk-M1 system on local newspaper, translation is mine:

"All in all, Buk-system consists of four units: surveillance radar vehicle, command post vehicle, TELAR (missile launcher+radar) vehicle and missile transport vehicle.

When used together, the system can distinguish a civil aircraft from military planes.

TELAR vehicle can also be used independently, but then its ability to identify a goal is reduced and the risk to fire against a wrong target will rise, says Pulkki.

"TELAR's radar can only tell that there is a plane flying in there. Subsequently, the missile can be locked on to it, and fired", tells Pulkki.

"If TELAR is used by one person or otherwise ill-trained team without the support of separate surveillance radar vehicle and command link, it is very possible that the target's quality and altitude are not exactly clear." "

http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/Buk-j%C3%A4rjestelm%C3%A4ll%C3%A4+osuu+matkustajakoneesen+l%C3%A4hes+sataprosenttisella+varmuudella/a1405658289924

Pulkki is a some kind of weapon system specialist, I'm not sure if he has worked with Buk-systems of Finnish Army. If TELAR's altitude reading for MH17 was inaccurate, operator might have thought it was a military plane in no-fly zone . Reportedly MH17 was flying 1 000 feet above restricted zone, at 33 000 feet.


Exactly, this is my understanding as well. Rebels had the racket launcher unit (despite their denials now). This is documented by pictures, videos and them themself bragging about it on social media. They did not have the other pieces of the system, so they had no idea what they were shooting at. I guess Russians didn't think it through before giving them the SAMs. This is why they are removing the equipment form rebel territory now to hide the evidence.

Originally Posted By: Nebroch

edit. For unknown reasons, MH17 was asked to descend to that altitude from 35 000 feet.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malay...3000ft-says-mas


From 35000 to 33000 feet. Not significant IMHO. The airspace was closed below 32000 but Buk SAMs had capacity in the 70000-80000 range.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I don't know much about the time stamps, but do the time stamps show time zones?


No they don't, but that's a good question. I'm thinking that creation_time is created by camera device or video editing software (=in ukrainian time), but I'm not sure. Could someone clarify?

This tapped discussion was dated to wednesday evening, which is also "interesting".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw


This is an interesting discovery and was picked up and amplified by all the conspiracy nutjobs on internet. But, it's a legitimate concern. Thinking rationally, there are 3 explanations:

1. Ukrainians fabricated the conversation and evidence (difficult but possible), but somehow forgot the change the date to after the incident (uncredibly stupid, thus unlikely IMHO).

2. Russians hacked the hosted videos (possible, not sure how difficult) and changed the date to discredit the evidence. Knowing that hacking is the favorite russian pastime I think this is possible and likely.

3. Russians downloaded the official videos, changed the date to earlier to discredit them and uploaded them on a massive scale to make sure they go viral with the earlier date embedded. If 99% of video clips circulating are now doctored, you will not find the real one. Even if Ukrainian government comes out with the real one with correct date, Russians will say Ukrainians changed them. This is the easiest and most likely IMHO.

So, it boils down to what version you want to believe. Obviously most russians or bias persons will believe #1.