M1 taxi engine tear down

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Is this the typical test where they run a well built engine under ideal circumstances then gloat about how good their product is to people who really believe taxi service is bad for an engine?


And how is being a taxi an "ideal" circumstance?

Taxis idle constantly(with the AC on during the summer), run in stop and go traffic. Many taxis see very little highway at 60MPH driving.

IMO, a Las Vegas taxis is a brutal way for a car to exist.

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Well, I think taxi service isn't the worst thing for an engine, in terms of cold start up wear things are pretty good! And they get run hard enough daily/hourly to get the oil nice and hot to remove water or fuel contamination.
An old ladies car, started 10 times a day and driven 2 blocks at a time, never warming up or seeing 1/4 throttle or 2500rpm, for 5 months of winter in Winnipeg is probably a harder situation for engine oil to deal with. Just not as cool for marketing as
!!!!LAS VEGAS TAXI TORTURE TEST!!!!!


Problem is, it would take 10 years for that old ladies car to get 50K miles. Then if they tore down an engine with 50K miles everyone would start yelling.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Please expand on how taxi cabs operate in ideal circumstances.

It's not ideal, as tig1 noted - that would involve more highway trips. But, it's far from the severe service that owners' manuals would have you believe.

The oil never gets cool, so fuel dilution generally is burned off and condensation is always burned off. There are no cold starts. When I ran a cab fleet here in the 1980s, we were doing 6,000 mile OCIs on conventional. How is it a stretch to do 10,000 mile OCIs on an SN/GF-5 top end synthetic?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Is this the typical test where they run a well built engine under ideal circumstances then gloat about how good their product is to people who really believe taxi service is bad for an engine?


And how is being a taxi an "ideal" circumstance?

Taxis idle constantly(with the AC on during the summer), run in stop and go traffic. Many taxis see very little highway at 60MPH driving.

IMO, a Las Vegas taxis is a brutal way for a car to exist.


IMO, a very important qualification here.

IMO our duty cycle could easily be viewed as torturous. We run 3500 GM vans at very nearly their full weight rating in high temps and even stationary at 1500-1700 rpm while we work!

Yet our last van sold at 500k miles without a single indication of old age in the engine. No noises, no oil use, no drips, no smoke.

Years ago with carbureted vehicles we never shut the engine off all day long, 8-10 hours total 6 days a week. Yet we still got above average life.

The facts are it is actually easier on the engine.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Is this the typical test where they run a well built engine under ideal circumstances then gloat about how good their product is to people who really believe taxi service is bad for an engine?


And how is being a taxi an "ideal" circumstance?

Taxis idle constantly(with the AC on during the summer), run in stop and go traffic. Many taxis see very little highway at 60MPH driving.

IMO, a Las Vegas taxis is a brutal way for a car to exist.


IMO, a very important qualification here.

IMO our duty cycle could easily be viewed as torturous. We run 3500 GM vans at very nearly their full weight rating in high temps and even stationary at 1500-1700 rpm while we work!

Yet our last van sold at 500k miles without a single indication of old age in the engine. No noises, no oil use, no drips, no smoke.

Years ago with carbureted vehicles we never shut the engine off all day long, 8-10 hours total 6 days a week. Yet we still got above average life.

The facts are it is actually easier on the engine.


Steve I agree, run an engine at full operating temps and don't shut it off is about as good as it gets. These oil companies aren't stupid when they pick torture tests. You want to torture an engine run it in sub zero weather soccer mom style. It's certainly more boring than a desert taxi torture test, and something not many people will tune in to watch, but it's much more severe. I'd like to see the tear down results of that test more so than a desert taxi torture test.

Disclaimer this isn't a Mobil bash I'm currently using their oil in one vehicle and in about a month it will be in two of my vehicles. Bottom line this is advertising, and advertising is designed to sell product, not show its weaknesses.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Bottom line this is advertising, and advertising is designed to sell product, not show its weaknesses.


Completely agreed and right on the mark! No advertiser would pick any type of promotion that revealed their shortcomings!

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Garak
It's not ideal, as tig1 noted - that would involve more highway trips. But, it's far from the severe service that owners' manuals would have you believe.


I agree. I remember the old, "Stop. Go. Pennzoil." commercials, where they showed cars in traffic in sweltering weather. The truth is, as uncomfortable as that looks for a human being, the oil was peachy-keen. It's in a thermostatically-controlled engine, so its temperature isn't likely much higher than it would be at any other part of the year, but it also stays warm enough that you don't have the fuel/water issues that you'd have with lots of cold start.

Marketing plays these tricks all the time. It's a natural human reaction to "internalize" or "personalize" something they see, and to imagine that everything else (equipment, nature, etc) must be feeling the same type of stress they would. The television images of heat rising from the pavement and lines of cars in slow-moving traffic certainly makes most humans feel "sympathy" for the cars (and the engines, and the oil) in those images. Afterall, we humans would be out there baking under the same circumstances. So we would naturally want to chose the product that will best protect our machines, even though it's a relatively low-stress environment, contrary to what the carefully-crafted images in the TV commercial lead us to believe.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Bottom line this is advertising, and advertising is designed to sell product, not show its weaknesses.


Completely agreed and right on the mark! No advertiser would pick any type of promotion that revealed their shortcomings!


Agreed, but isn't it interesting that no other oil company has done these type of events. Now Castrol does these silly things like the present side by side comparison of two cars running full throtle until one engine blows. Knowing XM the way I do, I doubt this will be a cheesy thing. The 1 million KM mile tear down of a MB engine, or the 1 million mile BMW engine tear down, ran on a dino was a long drawn out, very expensive test to do. Othere oil producers should do that.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Bottom line this is advertising, and advertising is designed to sell product, not show its weaknesses.


Completely agreed and right on the mark! No advertiser would pick any type of promotion that revealed their shortcomings!


Agreed, but isn't it interesting that no other oil company has done these type of events. Now Castrol does these silly things like the present side by side comparison of two cars running full throtle until one engine blows. Knowing XM the way I do, I doubt this will be a cheesy thing. The 1 million KM mile tear down of a MB engine, or the 1 million mile BMW engine tear down, ran on a dino was a long drawn out, very expensive test to do. Othere oil producers should do that.


I agree it is a splendid demo, but its relevance to us everyday drivers is what seems to be in question...

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: stchman


IMO, a Las Vegas taxis is a brutal way for a car to exist.


Nonsense. The fact that LV weater makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean it uncomfortable for engine. Engine likes 100C (212F). 100F in LV is very mild for engine.

 

[Clevy]

So the trailer says "24 hours a day". Is it implying that the engine runs 24-7? If so isn't that ideal? Never cold started.
I expect the internals to be spotless.

 

[another Todd]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I agree. I remember the old, "Stop. Go. Pennzoil." commercials, where they showed cars in traffic in sweltering weather. The truth is, as uncomfortable as that looks for a human being, the oil was peachy-keen. It's in a thermostatically-controlled engine, so its temperature isn't likely much higher than it would be at any other part of the year, but it also stays warm enough that you don't have the fuel/water issues that you'd have with lots of cold start.

Marketing plays these tricks all the time. It's a natural human reaction to "internalize" or "personalize" something they see, and to imagine that everything else (equipment, nature, etc) must be feeling the same type of stress they would. The television images of heat rising from the pavement and lines of cars in slow-moving traffic certainly makes most humans feel "sympathy" for the cars (and the engines, and the oil) in those images. Afterall, we humans would be out there baking under the same circumstances. So we would naturally want to chose the product that will best protect our machines, even though it's a relatively low-stress environment, contrary to what the carefully-crafted images in the TV commercial lead us to believe.


Pretty much exactly how I see it.

 

[nleksan]

It's Las Vegas, even the cold starts aren't really all that cold!

While a taxi sees far less than ideal driving circumstances, I'd be willing to bet that they still see better than the vast, VAST majority of engines. Taxi companies have a very vested interest in keeping the car on the road as long as possible, and consequently the maintenance schedules for the cars are typically extremely strict, so much so that I'd be willing to bet that on average they're better maintained than the average persons car to the point that the taxi with 350k miles will have the same or less wear than the avg car at 35k.

Still, it's advertising. I have done plenty of teardowns, and the only time I've been truly impressed was with my 2.8L I6 that had zero carbon buildup aside from minor varnish, completely clean valves, perfect compression, and not even a single visible mark on any of the cam lobes.... After 7x,xxx miles of which a few K were track miles, and a good deal were with a (at the time stock) Lysholm 2.3L twin-screw supercharger pushing 9psi of boost into the engine, one running a compression ratio of 10.8:1 static!
The only fluids it had seen was Redline and some Royal Purple (SL, high ZDDP), with the filters being Mahle, Mann, K&N, and AFE for the oil, and either Mahle (OEM) panel or AFE ProDryS cone air filters.

Additives? Redline SI-1, Redline Water Wetter, Seafoam in gas rarely, and Techron.

Since then, I have seen very clean engines and very dirty engines, but the only ones I've seen with almost no visible wear have been using RL with short-ish OCI's. Everything else, from M1 5w40 to AMSOIL, has always had visible wear, even with fewer miles.
Oh, and I know this is anecdotal, and the majority of these motors see a fair bit of track time, but I am just sharing my actual experience...

 

[KenO]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
It's Las Vegas, even the cold starts aren't really all that cold!

While a taxi sees far less than ideal driving circumstances, I'd be willing to bet that they still see better than the vast, VAST majority of engines. Taxi companies have a very vested interest in keeping the car on the road as long as possible, and consequently the maintenance schedules for the cars are typically extremely strict, so much so that I'd be willing to bet that on average they're better maintained than the average persons car to the point that the taxi with 350k miles will have the same or less wear than the avg car at 35k.

Still, it's advertising. I have done plenty of teardowns, and the only time I've been truly impressed was with my 2.8L I6 that had zero carbon buildup aside from minor varnish, completely clean valves, perfect compression, and not even a single visible mark on any of the cam lobes.... After 7x,xxx miles of which a few K were track miles, and a good deal were with a (at the time stock) Lysholm 2.3L twin-screw supercharger pushing 9psi of boost into the engine, one running a compression ratio of 10.8:1 static!
The only fluids it had seen was Redline and some Royal Purple (SL, high ZDDP), with the filters being Mahle, Mann, K&N, and AFE for the oil, and either Mahle (OEM) panel or AFE ProDryS cone air filters.

Additives? Redline SI-1, Redline Water Wetter, Seafoam in gas rarely, and Techron.

Since then, I have seen very clean engines and very dirty engines, but the only ones I've seen with almost no visible wear have been using RL with short-ish OCI's. Everything else, from M1 5w40 to AMSOIL, has always had visible wear, even with fewer miles.
Oh, and I know this is anecdotal, and the majority of these motors see a fair bit of track time, but I am just sharing my actual experience...



ESS Twinscrew? Local guy has one on his 330ci, it's amazing, lol! I'm good friends with the guys at TRM that enhanced the EuroSport E36 twinscrew kits too, 400+ whp with V8-like torque is ftw!!

 

[daves87rs]

Still might be cool to see...

 

[Ayrton]

Show wasn't too thrilling and at least on my feed, the video was 2-3 seconds in front of the audio, which made it annoying to watch.

The only took the valve covers off the engine live. They had pictures of another one they opened back in October.

We also never heard how long the OCI were. They said a normal oil change is 3000 miles on conventional, and these Mobil 1 tests might be 2-5x beyond that, that is quite a variation.

It was also a bit amusing because the industry expert would try to say I see a bit of deposits here but it's really nothing, and then the Mobil 1 guy would say well just because it's not new, it's as clean as it gets not new. 9.9. ha-ha.

I appreciate the effort, and I certainly use Mobil 1 0w40. However, I'm not sure how great this idea/broadcast was. I give them credit for trying though. It's more than the other motor oil brands show us.

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: stchman


IMO, a Las Vegas taxis is a brutal way for a car to exist.


Nonsense. The fact that LV weater makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean it uncomfortable for engine. Engine likes 100C (212F). 100F in LV is very mild for engine.


So I gather your first choice for a used car would be a former Las Vegas taxi?

 

[zeuloa]

Originally Posted By: Ayrton
Show wasn't too thrilling and at least on my feed, the video was 2-3 seconds in front of the audio, which made it annoying to watch.

The only took the valve covers off the engine live. They had pictures of another one they opened back in October.

We also never heard how long the OCI were. They said a normal oil change is 3000 miles on conventional, and these Mobil 1 tests might be 2-5x beyond that, that is quite a variation.

It was also a bit amusing because the industry expert would try to say I see a bit of deposits here but it's really nothing, and then the Mobil 1 guy would say well just because it's not new, it's as clean as it gets not new. 9.9. ha-ha.

I appreciate the effort, and I certainly use Mobil 1 0w40. However, I'm not sure how great this idea/broadcast was. I give them credit for trying though. It's more than the other motor oil brands show us.


Agree, they didn't really show much. Engine had 125k. I wonder if they found something they didn't like and decided to cut it short.

I don't think this broadcast helped them much. They advertised a LIVE engine tear-down and showed a pre-recorded one, then barely took anything of the one they had there, and finally asked that you to tune in Nov. 22 to se the recording of the rest of today's tear-down....

 

[Ayrton]

Originally Posted By: zeuloa
Originally Posted By: Ayrton
Show wasn't too thrilling and at least on my feed, the video was 2-3 seconds in front of the audio, which made it annoying to watch.

The only took the valve covers off the engine live. They had pictures of another one they opened back in October.

We also never heard how long the OCI were. They said a normal oil change is 3000 miles on conventional, and these Mobil 1 tests might be 2-5x beyond that, that is quite a variation.

It was also a bit amusing because the industry expert would try to say I see a bit of deposits here but it's really nothing, and then the Mobil 1 guy would say well just because it's not new, it's as clean as it gets not new. 9.9. ha-ha.

I appreciate the effort, and I certainly use Mobil 1 0w40. However, I'm not sure how great this idea/broadcast was. I give them credit for trying though. It's more than the other motor oil brands show us.


Agree, they didn't really show much. Engine had 125k. I wonder if they found something they didn't like and decided to cut it short.

I don't think this broadcast helped them much. They advertised a LIVE engine tear-down and showed a pre-recorded one, then barely took anything of the one they had there, and finally asked that you to tune in Nov. 22 to se the recording of the rest of today's tear-down....



You're right, it did end early. Not sure why.

The 125k number on the engine doesn't particularly impress me either. We never heard the exact oil change intervals, so I'm not exactly surprised with Mobil 1 at some unknown, probably quite regular interval, the engine looks ok.

However, back to your point, the show really wasn't as advertised! Oh well.

 

[Arctic388]

EPIC FAIL !

but patiently waiting to see on Nov 22 what cleaned up parts they intend to show.