M/T Comparo: 2011 Ford Mustang GT vs 2011 BMW M3

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Hard to say dollar for dollar which I'd rather have.. I know that sounds dumb but as per this discussion, for some reasons, the M3 is definitely worth more $. In other ways it is not (raw performance)

But I do like V8 RWD muscle, and the Mustang has it in spades.

Pretty neat comparo either way..
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
It's not a problem for me at all and nothing is bothering me, I promise. I'm just interested in what "way" the M3 is more refined.

Are we talking NVH? Ride? Handling? "Feel"? Interior? I've heard so many different definitions of refinement I'm not sure what this means coming from different people.

The Mustang interior really doesn't give up anything to the M3 interior except for maybe seats, and the '11 Mustang is a lot smoother and quieter than most realize. It's smoothness has resulted in some complaints, believe it or not, from some Mustang fans. It doesn't feel like a traditional Mustang anymore.

I haven't driven an E92 M3, but I have driven an E46 M3.

Understandable.

Here's how I've understood it.

One factor is that it's a combination of things that usually pull in opposite directions; for example, taut body control and a smooth ride are easy to achieve separately, but very hard to achieve together. Ditto with firm engine mounts and low NVH, good steering feel and isolating the steering from bumps and vibration, excitement with relaxation, etc. When those goals are achieved together, that's called "refinement."

Another factor is attention to detail, not just in interior fit-and-finish but in little things that you're not really aware of but that affect the drive. For example, BMWs usually have excellent visibility (not just of the trees around you but of the vehicle's extremities), very good dive/squat control, VERY safe handling behavior at the limit, etc. This is the stuff that makes people feel like some cars "just drive better," even though they don't seem particularly special in parts.


I think it's just one of those things where it must be experienced for yourself. Since I haven't driven a E9anything I can't comment, but I do not take M/T's word for it. I'm not saying they are wrong, but the possibility definitely exists.

The only thing I found unrefined about the '11 Mustang GT was low speed clutch disengagement, the trans gave a drive-line slack impression similar to my '99. Other than that, I was honestly shocked at how refined the car was. It felt as smooth and quiet (save for exhaust) as some late model import "luxury cars" I've been, not to mention it was strong on features.

I will say one thing about the M3, something I honestly never thought I'd say about a BMW, but I think it sounds better than the Mustang. At least stock for stock.
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Old guys like me put a free flow exhaust and a cold air kit on our Mustangs so they will sound better (and louder). I'm only going through a mid life crisis if I am going to live to be 116.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Ben, you really disappoint me.


You know what really disappoints me?


A statement not borne out by facts.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The new M3 is a lot more car than th Stang. I think almost anyone would agree.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
You know what really disappoints me?


A statement not borne out by facts.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The new M3 is a lot more car than th Stang. I think almost anyone would agree.

Which one is "a lot more car" is a matter of opinion, not "fact" in the sense that I think you mean (i.e. performance numbers).

Now, if you want to make a new thread where we compare the M3 to the Mustang GT strictly by the numbers, at Willow Springs, with no regard to anything else, that would be different -- and you would be right. But I'm pretty sure that's not the context in which SteveSRT8 was talking.
 
They are two different types of cars other than similar performance they are different cars and the people who buy either are looking satisfying specific needs . Myself with $70,000 burning a hole in my pocket looking for a car I would buy a 4 Cyl Camry or a Focus or a Corolla, a Toyota pickup with a stick shift. I really like basic Ford F150 even with an auto. Vehicles are kinda a waste of $$$ imo. I have had some nice cars ,,, Something to spend extra money on .
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


The only overlap I can imagine is for a middle-age guy trying to decide between a Z4 and a Mustang for his mid-life crisis. Am I missing something here?


Back in 2006, I was Mustang shopping. Then on the same lot, I saw a 2004 Z4.

The Z4 was slightly cheaper. Had a better warranty. Handled better. And the insurance was much cheaper. (Big selling point.) Two seats and a drop top were icing on the cake.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Now, if you want to make a new thread where we compare the M3 to the Mustang GT strictly by the numbers, at Willow Springs, with no regard to anything else, that would be different -- and you would be right. But I'm pretty sure that's not the context in which SteveSRT8 was talking.


Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
But many would agree that that there's more than just numbers to the driving experience. Go take a test drive in a new M3 and compare to the Stang.


Steve, have you driven both cars?
 
Ben, I'm sure you'll agree it seems a little hypocritical to hold his feet to the fire on whether he's driven both cars. You're being at least as strident without having done the same.
 
Actually, no, I have no seat time in a new 5.0. But I'll get me some!

But I have a LOT of seat time at Homestead in a new M3 as my Realtor buddy and I do track days together a lot. I've had his over 150 mph on half the big oval!

Ben, we all know of your predisposition towards the Stang. I have complimented it directly and pointedly in this thread. It's a cool car, but just another Stang. They're already all over the dealer lots and will be as common as dirt on the street.

And I know that if you could hear that little 4 liter V8 in the M3 winding out over 8 grand you'd like it. You're a car guy, I know that much. It is a car that numbers do NOT do justice!

But I would bet a lot of money that given 75 or 100k miles that Stang is not going to be tight and satisfying to drive like every German car I've had. I've owned a few Mercedes and a few BMW's, and while they have their issues, they remain very taut and squeak/rattle free way out past 100k miles. Routinely.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Ben, I'm sure you'll agree it seems a little hypocritical to hold his feet to the fire on whether he's driven both cars. You're being at least as strident without having done the same.


I don't see any hypocrisy on my part. The M/T article bears out from a performance standpoint that the M3 isn't a whole lot more car. Regarding refinement I can't comment because I haven't driven both cars, but I also do not take M/T's word on subjective impressions.

The only reason I asked Steve if he has driven both cars was because of this statement.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
But many would agree that that there's more than just numbers to the driving experience. Go take a test drive in a new M3 and compare to the Stang.


Rest assured, if presented with the opportunity I will take a new M3 for a drive. I'm a Ford guy for sure, but I love cars and performance.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And I know that if you could hear that little 4 liter V8 in the M3 winding out over 8 grand you'd like it. You're a car guy, I know that much. It is a car that numbers do NOT do justice!


Yes, I do love the E92 M3's engine note. That's why I wrote this:

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I will say one thing about the M3, something I honestly never thought I'd say about a BMW, but I think it sounds better than the Mustang. At least stock for stock.
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
But I would bet a lot of money that given 75 or 100k miles that Stang is not going to be tight and satisfying to drive like every German car I've had.


Maybe, maybe not. Chassis tautness is an area where Ford has definitely excelled over its domestic counterparts for some time now. I honestly believe the newest Mustangs will age very well.

Quote:
I've owned a few Mercedes and a few BMW's, and while they have their issues, they remain very taut and squeak/rattle free way out past 100k miles. Routinely.


Yep, older Mercedes in particular excelled in this area. I give them their due credit, but I will also say my '01 F150 with 152,000+ miles is completely squeak and rattle free. It doesn't have that drum tight door slam feeling of the older Benzs, but it is squeak/rattle free and as smooth as day one.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
......but just another Stang. They're already all over the dealer lots and will be as common as dirt on the street.


You're a car guy, I know that much. It is a car that numbers do NOT do justice!





The first line reveals your real problem with the Mustang, it's too "common" for you......like I said before your loss. And a bit closed minded the way I see it.

I'll admit, my '03 Cobra got a lot of unwanted and unwarranted attention from the younger crowd, and it was a rather crude car in the NVH sense but I don't buy cars to impress others or to project an "image", and that car despite it's short fallings was a blast to drive. For the cash, nothing came close.
Enter the new Mustang with a thoroughly new platform, solid as rock and all the attention given to it.....I'd say you best get some seat time in one before you assume they will be rattle traps at 100k. I don't see that happening at all in this generations case. Fox or SN95 yes, I'll concede that.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Enter the new Mustang with a thoroughly new platform, solid as rock and all the attention given to it.....I'd say you best get some seat time in one before you assume they will be rattle traps at 100k. I don't see that happening at all in this generations case. Fox or SN95 yes, I'll concede that.


+1
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The M/T article bears out from a performance standpoint that the M3 isn't a whole lot more car. Regarding refinement I can't comment because I haven't driven both cars, but I also do not take M/T's word on subjective impressions.

That makes perfect sense.

Based on that, since we are missing half the story, we can say -- as you said -- that the M3 isn't a whole lot more car... from a performance standpoint. That's a very different thing from saying it's not a whole lot more car, period. Agreed?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The M/T article bears out from a performance standpoint that the M3 isn't a whole lot more car. Regarding refinement I can't comment because I haven't driven both cars, but I also do not take M/T's word on subjective impressions.

That makes perfect sense.

Based on that, since we are missing half the story, we can say -- as you said -- that the M3 isn't a whole lot more car... from a performance standpoint. That's a very different thing from saying it's not a whole lot more car, period. Agreed?


Agreed
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
What advantages does the M3 actually have over the new GT?

Independent rear suspension

Electronically controlled rear differential

Better high-speed stability and handling

Better composure at all speeds

Refinement on a level that Ford isn't even attempting, much less with the Mustang

Available in sedan format

Mature, being a few years old now and free of growing pains


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I do believe Ford has done plenty of refinement before.... The Ford GT immediately comes to mind.

Considering the difference in price between these two cars can buy you ANOTHER car... I would hope that the M3 would have some traits that justify the massive price rift.

I absolutely love the E39 M5. One of my favourite cars of all time. But I also love the Mustang in its various incarnations over the decades and Ford has come leaps and bounds with this car from where it started and from where it has been. And for that, they deserve credit.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I do believe Ford has done plenty of refinement before.... The Ford GT immediately comes to mind.

Well I was speaking in the present tense, but that is an excellent point.





....Although, wasn't that chassis set up by Lotus?
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