Looking for some "bulletproof" brake rotors

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Looking for some near "bulletproof" brake rotors that will stand up to hard driving for an 05 Accord M/T. I plan to pair them with Akebono ProACT pads for long life, low dust, and low noise.

So far, I have the following combos:

1) Powerslot slotted rotors + Akebono ProACT pads- $235 shipped
2) Rotora slotted rotors + Akebono ProACT pads- $262 shipped
3) Powerstop slotted rotors + Akebono ProACT pads- $161 shipped
4) RacingBrake slotted/cross-drilled rotors + Akebono ProACT pads for $300 shipped (Est)
5) Powerslot Cyro treated slotted rotors + Akebono ProACT pads for $275 shipped (Est)

Which of those rotors will hold up best to severe use? Any real-world experience with any of those rotors, BITOGers? Any other brands that you'd recommend?

I know that the Acura TL crowd uses the Rotora and RacingBrake rotors with great results and those cars are notorious for warping rotors with even the most gentle drivers.

Thanks in advance.
 
What do you mean by 'hard' use? I track my car and it's one heavy beast (3630 lbs). I currently run Stoptech's 355mm brake kit.

Fro track use, I would avoid Powerslots along with any other rotors that has slots that run all the way to the edge of the rotor. I've seen these used on track before and they're notorious for fragging. Before they actually break, they all tend to develop cracks that propagate from the exact same place in the rotors; right at the edge of the slot where a stress riser is caused by the retarding force of the pads clamped onto the rotors.

As far as rotors I would recommend, Porterfield cryo treated rotors have held up well on roadcourses using the stock brake calipers and stock dimension rotors, so have KVR rotors. I've heard some good things about Rotora, but have no personal experience with them.

Another company you might want to look into is DBA. They've been popular for years with Evo and Scooby fans Down Under (DBA = Disc Brakes Australia). Tirerack has just recently become a US distributor making them available stateside. For stock sized options, if they have your rotors, this is the company I would go with. Good record with track-driven cars and DBA rotors (like DBA's 4000 series) actually come pre-painted with temperature indicating paint, which is invaluable for proper pad selection for enthusiasts. saves you the time and money of separately purchasing Tempilaq or Genesis brake temp indicating paints.

The temp indicating paint is a ceramic based paint that 'melts' and changes color/appearance permanenetly when certain temps are hit. They'll show you what maximum temps your brake rotors are hitting so you can select a pad accordingly. Most street pads are useless for serious driving. The MOT (maximum operating temp) is very low so repeated hard braking causes brake fade.

Among the best dual use pads out there are Carbotech's line. The Bobcat is their street pad. Has a decent MOT and pretty good bite (~0.5 mu). Most street pads will be in the 0.3-0.4mu range. I personally use Bobcats in the rear and Carbotech's Panther Plus pads in front. The PP's have an MOT ~1300f and a 0.55mu. The Bobcats are better than Hawk HPS's that I used to run and The Panther Plus is better than the Hawk HP Plus that I also have run.

The Panther Plus are not recommended for street use because of excessive dust and noise. I can testify that they dust like crazy and they will squeal, but they work well even below freezing, and I've used them on track with repeated braking from 115+ mph without fade. I also don't care about the dust or noise (the dust is non-corrosive).

Another good dual use pad is Ferodo's DS2500 pad. The Akebono pads are not that much better than run-of-the-mill street pads and if performance driving is your thing, avoid ---- like Raybestos and ANY lifetime warrantied pad like the plague.

Good pads work best by a mechanical action known as adhesive friction (sort of like trying to slide a 3M sticky note across a table). Bedding them in properly is very important. When a good pad is properly bedded-in, it leaves a very thin layer of friction material on the surface of the rotors. When you start braking the pad compound heats up and it actually sticks best to itself (the pad to the layer of pad material on the rotor). The forming and breaking of the adhesive bonds is what gives them superior braking performance and is gentler on the rotor because the pad is continually leaving a film deposit on the rotors and is using itself up, not the rotor.

---- Autozone/Pep Boys pads generally use a different type of friction known as abrasive friction. This is like draggin a piece of sandpaper across a table. The pad compound is really hard, leaves little to no pad material on the rotors, and eats rotors. This is why the pad can be warranted for life. The pad doesn't wear much, your rotors take all the abuse. This is also not as effective as newer compound pads making use of adhesive friction.

How do you know if you have ---- pads? One easy way is to look at your rotors. If they rust nearly immediately after rain or from being parked for a couple of days, you've got ---- pads. As mentioned, good pads will leave a layer of pad material deposits on the rotor face. One of the side effects of this is it retards rust formation on the rotor face (not for long, but longer than a rotor face that is bare metal). If your rotors rust quickly, the pad is too darn hard. Hard does NOT mean they will stand up to heat well. Most ---- street pads (like the Raybestos lifetime stuff) are too hard, use abrasive friction AND have low MOT's. They'll stop your car once from 100+mph (I hope), but if you try this again and again, you'll experience pad fade by the 3rd stop.

BTW, there's a distinct difference between pad fade and fluid fade.

Fluid fade is when the fluid in the brake calipers and lines has boiled and entrains air bubbles in the system. The work of your foot pushing on the brake pedal which used to force hydraulic fluid through the lines to push the pistons in the calipers clamping the pads to the rotors is now taken up in compressing these air bubbles. This leads to the characteristic, 'brake pedal going to the floor, I can't stop, Oh ----!' sensation. If this happens, pump the brakes to build pressure.

Pad fade feels quite different. This is when the pad surface begins to liquefy because the brake rotors/system is too hot and has exceeded the pad's MOT. The brake pedal still feels as firm as normal, but hard as you stomp down on the pedal, the car isn't slowing down the way it should. You could imagine the sensation being what it would feel like if someone sprayed WD-40 or liberally applied grease to your brake rotors.

Pick good pads, and use good fluid. I usually use ATE Super Blue/Typ200 because it's one of the cheapest performance fluids around and is one of the less hygroscopic fluids. It absorbs water less than some of the other fluids (like RBF600) so you don't have to flush it as often.

Go to Stoptech's website and you can read their Whiet papers and technical sections for some added info.



Max
 
I think if one is looking for long-life one must avoid slotted rotors...they are for racing...this is an interesting post...I can't wait to see what you decide on...by the way I am rotor shopping recently...Yes I may be wrong about slotted rotors but tell me otherwise I will go on thinking I am right!
 
bluemax1 that's as good a post as I've seen here and I've been here a long time. Yes DBA are doing some great things. I need new front rotors for the turbo Mazda and their stuff will be considered for sure.
 
Quote:


I think if one is looking for long-life one must avoid slotted rotors...they are for racing...this is an interesting post...I can't wait to see what you decide on...by the way I am rotor shopping recently...Yes I may be wrong about slotted rotors but tell me otherwise I will go on thinking I am right!



Slots, technically, are for the "venting" and allow the rotors to run cooler. Whether or not they actually fulfill their intended purpose, I don't know, but I have a feeling that it has more of an aesthetic benefit than an actual performance benefit. But in this case, I'm just after a rotor that will hold up to harder daily driving.

Quote:


What do you mean by 'hard' use?



My apologies, I should have mentioned that in my original post. I just mean "spirited" daily driving. No track, Auto-X, drag racing, pretend NASCAR, or anything of that nature.

Since this car won't be seeing track use, would Powerslots be OK? I'm just looking for a very durable rotor (slots, drilled, etc, I really don't care as long as the rotor lasts) that will stand up to the more aggressive driver. I just know that Rotoras and RacingBrake slotted rotors stand up to those on AcuraZine and some on their even take their car to the track once in a while.

Thanks.
 
Just received a reply from Powerslot.

Their rotors are warrantied for three years or 36,000 miles!
grin.gif
 
I've run 2 sets of Powerslots on my 1996 Prelude VTEC with very, very good results. No warping, ever, despite all the dumb things I do in my car. I've put over 100K on a set of Powerslots using Metal Master pads, actually wearing out the slots (but not warping!). I liked these so much, I put a set on my fathers Auroa, the heavies FWD car out there. He never had an issue with those rotors, his car went well over 400K!

Slots are indeed "bulltproof"!
 
+1 also for Brembo for Rotor, they have very good casting quality.

If you are using Akebono ProACT, it is not really hard on the rotor. They are one of the 2 OEM of Honda (the other being Nissin). If you want very high performance street pad, Porterfield R4s is the one to go, but they dust like crazy, and expect to spend big bucks.
 
Brembo offers standard replacement rotors as well as slotted and slotted w/drilled rotors. They are the only ones I have had any personal experience with and they are very good quality.
The 03-up Accords have had some problems with rotors not being parrallel as well as some groaning coming from the pads. I have an 03 and a 05 and have used Brembos along with Akebono with excellent results. Akebono's ceramics are fine for spirited street driving and are easy on rotors plus they are dead quiet.
As far as track use, I could not comment on what is best. My Accords cost too much to put them into that type of driving situation. I'm more into seeing how long they will run;not interested in how fast.
There's been no problems with Brembo's slotted or drilled rotors failing under street use. Ditto for Akebono's line of pads. When you place a car in a racing or track use, all bets are off regardless of the parts used.
 
Wilwood doesn't sell OEM rotors.
Brembo Sport (slotted) or cryo'ed stock rotors would be my 1st choices.
http://www.frozenrotors.com/

If you can handle the noise and rust-colored brakedust then Porterfield or Hawk pads rule.
 
Brembo makes good rotor blanks. If your main purpose is street driving with occasional 'spirited' use, get plain rotors. Slotted rotors WILL wear the pads faster, crossdrilled rotors are a waste of time and money.

For anyone interested in plain vs. slotted vs. crossdrilled, the following might be of interest to you.

1st off, let's just get it out of the way. These days, crossdrilled rotors are for LOOKS ONLY. Let me explain.

Back in the old days (up to about the 70's), brake pad technology still sucked pretty bad. The pad compounds used back then tended to outgas when they got very hot. Occasionally, this gas pressure from outgassing could be severe enough to somewhat 'float' the pad on the rapidly spinning rotor face. Obviously not a good thing as it could seriously reduce the braking torque. Rotors were crossdrilled to allow these gases to have an escape route thus avoiding the 'float'. These days, modern brake pad compounds don't offgas like that when they get hot, removing the original reason for crossdrilling.

Now here comes the sticky part. Why are crossdrilled rotors still common all over the place? The answer is perception and common belief. A lot of sheeple still believe that crossdrilled rotors have a performance advantage so manufacturers offer them. Folks also have misguided ideas of what exactly these advantages are.

Common misconceptions about advantages with crossdrilled rotors;

- They keep the brakes cooler. OK, using simple physics misguidedly turned into pseudo-science, folks will think, well the more surface area, the better the cooling. Yes, this is correct. Vented rotors dissipate heat better than non-vented rotors because there is more airflow over a greater surface area (correct), so the more holes there are in the rotor (eg. crossdrilled), the better it must dissipate heat (wrong). Why is that wrong? Well it isn't wrong,... in a static environment.

If you took two stock-sized cast iron rotors and stuck them in the oven till they both hit 750f (not hard to reach under medium hard braking) and then removed them and placed them in open air to cool, the crossdrilled rotor would in fact cool slightly quicker. This happens for 2 reasons; 1st, the crossdrilled rotor does in fact have more surface area to dissipate heat by radiation and convection. The other reason (which will become more important later) is that with both rotors being the same size, the crossdrilled rotor will have less mass (you just removed material by drilling all those holes). Since any given material has a given specific hesat capacity, removal of material mass = reduced heat capacity = less total thermal energy stored and less to dissipate. A 1kg iron ball heated to 750f will cool much faster than a 1000kg iron ball heated to the same temperature.

Now, the theory works in a static environment but how does it work in a dynamic environment? Not quite as well. Now some folks say, well, more holes, more airflow. Nope, not really. See, there's a world of a difference between the holes between the rotor faces of a vented rotor and the holes through the face when it's crossdrilled.

A vented rotor functions like an impeller, similar to the compressor in a turbocharger, or the impeller in a hairdryer. As the rotor spins, it accelerates air radially outward through the vanes while sucking air in at the center (just as a hairdryer or turbo does). The faster the rotor spins, the more air flows through it. Well how about those crossdrilled holes? The problem is that those holes are axial to the rotation, not radial like the vents in a vented rotor.

The vented rotor as mentioned, uses centrigual acceleration to move air through the vanes/vents. The axially drilled holes don't really get much airflow at all though. The crossdrilled holes are perpendicular to the rotation of the rotor. If you can't quite picture why there's little airflow through those holes, here's a simpl experiment to try or visualize. Take a regular drinking straw and cut it so it's about an inch long. Fill it with powder and then hold it in front of a fan so the ends are completely perpendicular to the airflow from the fan. Yes, the airflow will actually suck some of the powder out of the straw (due to Bernoulli's principle. The faster a fluid moves, the lower it's pressure, and in this case, air = the fluid). It will not evacuate all the powder though because there is low pressure at either end of the tube. No air flowing through it the way air flows through the radial vents.

So now we realize that the crossdrilled holes don't really do much for airflow and they're no longer really needed for outgassing, but crossdrilled brakes actually being WORSE than plain or slotted? Huh?

Well, it comes back to that earlier bit about mass and thermal capacity. Now this comes into play when the brakes are really stressed hard (on roadcourses, or spirited driving, or even coming down a long descent). As mentioned in my previous post, all brake pads have a MOT (maximum operating temperature). When you exceed the MOT, the pad surface/material actually begins to liquefy/melt. It's actually the binders holding the composite material together that's giving out. It's obvious that you want to keep the brake rotor temps below the pad's MOT. You can always get pads with a higher MOT if you anticipate higher brake temps (like race pads with MOT's to 2000+f), but there's a limit. Pads actually have a temp range. Pads with a higher MOT also have a raised Minimum OT. They don't brake well until the brakes have heated up to the Min OT (which is why race pads are a bad idea for street use).

So now you have street pads with a limited MOT (some are still better than others). Seemed like we digressed a little from rotors didn't we?

Well here's the tie-in. Whenever you use the brakes, the brake system is merely an energy conversion system. It converts kinetic energy (the car's motion) into thermal energy. It then must dissipate this thermal energy. Every braking system has a rate of thermal dissipation though and if you were ever foolish enough to try touching your brake rotors after coming home from a drive, you'ld have realized that the brakes don't really dissipate heat very quickly.

In hard use, one single maximum brake application from 70 mph can get the rotors and pads to 700+f, but if you drive off again, after 1 full minute, the rotors will still be at 400+f. Now if you had to hit the brakes again, their not starting from ambient temp anymore. You've already filled them up with some heat which they haven't yet managed to empty.

As you can see, each repeated braking event adds more heat into the system. If the rate you add heat to the system exceeds the rate at which they can dissipate the heat, you will hit the system's (the rotor's) thermal capacity.

See the rotors in the brakes are there for 2 things. One is to allow mechanical leverage for the pads to act on to retard the car's momentum, and the other important purpose is as a heatsink, to absorb all the heat generated from braking. The more kinetic energy you will be converting to thermal energy, the bigger the heatsink required, so heavier vehicles and faster ones need bigger rotors.

When you hit the rotor's thermal caapcity, each subsequent braking event causes the temps to skyrocket because the rotor can no longer absorb any heat. This means that you can very easily shoot past the pad's MOT causing pad fade.

The main purpose of bigger brake kits is to allow for bigger rotors. The primary reason for this is not to increase the leverage with larger diameters. You can increase braking torque simply by using a pad with a higher mu (coefficient of friction). The primary reason is to allow rotors with greater mass and thus greater thermal capacity. This allows not harder braking, but consistent, repeated hard braking without exceeding the system's thermal cap.

With crossdrilled rotors, you have reduced the mass of the rotors and thus reduced their thermal capacity. You will now reach thermal capacity more easily and the miniscule increase in heat dissipation afforded by the crossdrilled holes compared to plain doesn't come even close to making up for the loss of mass.

In professional racing where cast iron rotors are mandated, NO teams use crossdrilled rotors. Aside from the disadvantages of reduced thermal capacity (with no real measured advantage in thermal dissipation), crossdrilled rotors are also more prone to crack and frag. Some teams will use slotted rotors, but NONE of them use crossdrilled rotors.

So if there are no advantages, why are they still all over the place? An insider for a well known sportscar company was charged with testing crossdrilled rotors vs. plain rotors for their sportscars. The tests showed that the plain rotors had equal braking performance, better consistency and endurance, and gave better brake pad life. In addition, not needing to have crossdrilled rotors lowered costs too. So why do their cars still have crossdrilled rotors? When they put the test results to use and put plain rotors on their cars, most potential customers looking at the cars in the showroom commented more or less, "You'ld think for a top-end sportscar, they could at least have installed on high-performance crossdrilled brakes". The company realized that most folks are still misguided and that they could potentially lose sales to these misperceptions. So they put crossdrilled rotors back on the cars. They just made sure they were big enough that even with the crossdrilling, they had sufficient mass for the projected application.

As for slotted rotors. Well, most race teams use either plain or slotted. What's the purpose/advantage of slotted rotors. Well if your pads still outgas, they do have an avenue for escape without floating the pads. The slots don't actually remove much material from the rotor and the slots themselves do 2 things. The edge of the slots increases pad bite which provides slightly higher brake torque and th slots sweep the pad face continually under braking which helps de-glaze the pad face. Under high heat, it's sometimes possible for the binders in the pad to secerete and glaze over the pad face which results in a (possibly severe)loss of brake torque. The slots pretty much scrape the pad continuously preventing this. They also keep the pad face even. The downside? All this scraping eats pads quicker.

Plain rotors for street driving, maximum pad longevity and potentially hard use. Slotted for a lot of projected hard use if you don't mind reduced pad life. Crossdrilled.... only for the bling. To impress the clueless and to show the rest of us that you're clueless.


Max
 
Brembo makes good rotor blanks. If your main purpose is street driving with occasional 'spirited' use, get plain rotors. Slotted rotors WILL wear the pads faster, crossdrilled rotors are a waste of time and money.

For anyone interested in plain vs. slotted vs. crossdrilled, the following might be of interest to you.

1st off, let's just get it out of the way. These days, crossdrilled rotors are for LOOKS ONLY. Let me explain.

Back in the old days (up to about the 70's), brake pad technology still sucked pretty bad. The pad compounds used back then tended to outgas when they got very hot. Occasionally, this gas pressure from outgassing could be severe enough to somewhat 'float' the pad on the rapidly spinning rotor face. Obviously not a good thing as it could seriously reduce the braking torque. Rotors were crossdrilled to allow these gases to have an escape route thus avoiding the 'float'. These days, modern brake pad compounds don't offgas like that when they get hot, removing the original reason for crossdrilling.

Now here comes the sticky part. Why are crossdrilled rotors still common all over the place? The answer is perception and common belief. A lot of sheeple still believe that crossdrilled rotors have a performance advantage so manufacturers offer them. Folks also have misguided ideas of what exactly these advantages are.

Common misconceptions about advantages with crossdrilled rotors;

- They keep the brakes cooler. OK, using simple physics misguidedly turned into pseudo-science, folks will think, well the more surface area, the better the cooling. Yes, this is correct. Vented rotors dissipate heat better than non-vented rotors because there is more airflow over a greater surface area (correct), so the more holes there are in the rotor (eg. crossdrilled), the better it must dissipate heat (wrong). Why is that wrong? Well it isn't wrong,... in a static environment.

If you took two stock-sized cast iron rotors and stuck them in the oven till they both hit 750f (not hard to reach under medium hard braking) and then removed them and placed them in open air to cool, the crossdrilled rotor would in fact cool slightly quicker. This happens for 2 reasons; 1st, the crossdrilled rotor does in fact have more surface area to dissipate heat by radiation and convection. The other reason (which will become more important later) is that with both rotors being the same size, the crossdrilled rotor will have less mass (you just removed material by drilling all those holes). Since any given material has a given specific heat capacity, removal of material mass = reduced heat capacity = less total thermal energy stored and less to dissipate. A 1kg iron ball heated to 750f will cool much faster than a 1000kg iron ball heated to the same temperature.

Now, the theory works in a static environment but how does it work in a dynamic environment? Not quite as well. Now some folks say, well, more holes, more airflow. Nope, not really. See, there's a world of a difference between the channels of a vented rotor and the holes through the face when it's crossdrilled.

A vented rotor functions like an impeller, similar to the compressor in a turbocharger, or the impeller in a hairdryer. As the rotor spins, it accelerates air radially outward through the vanes while sucking air in at the center (just as a hairdryer or turbo does). The faster the rotor spins, the faster (and more) air flows through it. Well how about those crossdrilled holes? The problem is that those holes are axial to the rotation, not radial like the vents in a vented rotor.

The vented rotor as mentioned, uses centrifugal acceleration to move air through the vanes/vents. The axially drilled holes don't really get much airflow at all though. The crossdrilled holes are perpendicular to the rotation of the rotor. If you can't quite picture why there's little airflow through those holes, here's a simple experiment to try or visualize. Take a regular drinking straw and cut it so it's about an inch long. Fill it with powder and then hold it in front of a fan so the ends are completely perpendicular to the airflow from the fan. Yes, the airflow will actually suck some of the powder out of the ends of the straw (due in part to Bernoulli's principle. The faster a fluid moves, the lower it's pressure, and in this case, air = the fluid, but in this scenario, mostly due to the turbulence as it passes the ends of the straw). It will not evacuate all the powder though because there is low pressure at either end of the tube. No air flowing through it the way air flows through the radial vents.

So now we realize that the crossdrilled holes don't really do much for airflow and they're no longer really needed for outgassing, but the possibility of crossdrilled brakes actually being WORSE than plain or slotted? Huh?

Well, it comes back to that earlier bit about mass and thermal capacity. Now this comes into play when the brakes are really stressed hard (on roadcourses, or spirited driving, or even coming down a long descent). As mentioned in my previous post, all brake pads have a MOT (maximum operating temperature). When you exceed the MOT, the pad surface/material actually begins to liquefy/melt. It's actually the binders holding the composite material together that's giving out. It's obvious that you want to keep the brake rotor temps below the pad's MOT. You can always get pads with a higher MOT if you anticipate higher brake temps (like race pads with MOT's to 2000+f), but there's a limit. Pads actually have a temp range. Pads with a higher MOT also have a raised Minimum OT. They don't brake well until the brakes have heated up to the Min OT (which is why race pads are a bad idea for street use).

So now you have street pads with a limited MOT (some are still better than others). Seemed like we digressed a little from rotors didn't we?

Well here's the tie-in. Whenever you use the brakes, the brake system is merely an energy conversion system. It converts kinetic energy (the car's motion) into thermal energy. It then must dissipate this thermal energy. Every braking system has a rate of thermal dissipation though and if you were ever foolish enough to try touching your brake rotors after coming home from a drive, you'ld have realized that the brakes don't really dissipate heat very quickly.

In hard use, one single maximum brake application from 70 mph can get the rotors and pads to 700+f, but if you drive off again, after 1 full minute, the rotors will still be at 400+f. Now if you had to hit the brakes again, they're not starting from ambient temp anymore. You've already filled them up with some heat which they haven't yet managed to empty.

As you can see, each repeated braking event adds more heat into the system. If the rate you add heat to the system exceeds the rate at which they can dissipate the heat, you will hit the system's (the rotor's) thermal capacity.

See the rotors in the brakes are there for 2 things. One is to act as a surface for mechanical leverage for the pads to act on to retard the car's momentum, and the other important purpose is as a heatsink, to absorb all the heat generated from braking. The more kinetic energy you will be converting to thermal energy, the bigger the heatsink required, so heavier vehicles and faster ones need bigger rotors.

When you hit the rotor's thermal capacity, each subsequent braking event causes the temps to skyrocket because the rotor can no longer absorb any heat. This means that you can very easily shoot past the pad's MOT causing pad fade.

The main purpose of bigger brake kits is to allow for bigger rotors. The primary reason for this is not to increase the leverage/mechanical advantage with larger diameters, since you can increase braking torque simply by using a pad with a higher mu (coefficient of friction). The primary reason is to allow rotors with greater mass and thus greater thermal capacity. This allows not harder braking, but consistent, repeated hard braking without exceeding the system's thermal cap.

With crossdrilled rotors, you have reduced the mass of the rotors and thus reduced their thermal capacity. You will now reach thermal capacity more easily and the miniscule increase in heat dissipation afforded by the crossdrilled holes compared to plain doesn't come even close to making up for the loss of mass.

In professional racing where cast iron rotors are mandated, NO teams use crossdrilled rotors. Aside from the disadvantages of reduced thermal capacity (with no real measured advantage in thermal dissipation), crossdrilled rotors are also more prone to crack and frag. Some teams will use slotted rotors, but NONE of them use crossdrilled rotors.

So if there are no advantages, why are they still all over the place? An insider for a well known sportscar company was charged with testing crossdrilled rotors vs. plain rotors for their sportscars. The tests showed that the plain rotors had equal braking performance, better consistency and endurance, and gave better brake pad life. In addition, not needing to have crossdrilled rotors lowered costs too. So why do their cars still have crossdrilled rotors? When they put the test results to use and put plain rotors on their cars, most potential customers looking at the cars in the showroom commented more or less, "You'ld think for a top-end sportscar, they could at least have installed high-performance crossdrilled brakes". The company realized that most folks are still misguided and that they could potentially lose sales to these misperceptions. So they put crossdrilled rotors back on the cars. They just made sure they were big enough that even with the crossdrilling, they had sufficient mass for the projected application.

As for slotted rotors. Well, most race teams use either plain or slotted. What's the purpose/advantage of slotted rotors? Well if your pads still outgas, they do have an avenue for escape without floating the pads. The slots don't actually remove much material from the rotor and the slots themselves do 2 things. The edge of the slots increases pad bite which provides slightly higher brake torque and the slots sweep the pad face continually under braking which helps de-glaze the pad face. Under high heat, it's sometimes possible for the binders in the pad to secerete and glaze over the pad face which results in a (possibly severe)loss of brake torque. The slots pretty much scrape the pad continuously preventing this. They also keep the pad face even. The downside? All this scraping eats pads quicker.

Plain rotors for street driving, maximum pad longevity and potentially hard use. Slotted for a lot of projected hard use if you don't mind reduced pad life. Crossdrilled.... only for the bling. To impress the clueless and to show the rest of us that you're clueless.


Max
 
Brembo makes good rotor blanks. If your main purpose is street driving with occasional 'spirited' use, get plain rotors. Slotted rotors WILL wear the pads faster, crossdrilled rotors are a waste of time and money.

For anyone interested in plain vs. slotted vs. crossdrilled, the following might be of interest to you.

1st off, let's just get it out of the way. These days, crossdrilled rotors are for LOOKS ONLY. Let me explain.

Back in the old days (up to about the 70's), brake pad technology still sucked pretty bad. The pad compounds used back then tended to outgas when they got very hot. Occasionally, this gas pressure from outgassing could be severe enough to somewhat 'float' the pad on the rapidly spinning rotor face. Obviously not a good thing as it could seriously reduce the braking torque. Rotors were crossdrilled to allow these gases to have an escape route thus avoiding the 'float'. These days, modern brake pad compounds don't offgas like that when they get hot, removing the original reason for crossdrilling.

Now here comes the sticky part. Why are crossdrilled rotors still common all over the place? The answer is perception and common belief. A lot of sheeple still believe that crossdrilled rotors have a performance advantage so manufacturers offer them. Folks also have misguided ideas of what exactly these advantages are.

Common misconceptions about advantages with crossdrilled rotors;

- They keep the brakes cooler. OK, using simple physics misguidedly turned into pseudo-science, folks will think, well the more surface area, the better the cooling. Yes, this is correct. Vented rotors dissipate heat better than non-vented rotors because there is more airflow over a greater surface area (correct), so the more holes there are in the rotor (eg. crossdrilled), the better it must dissipate heat (wrong). Why is that wrong? Well it isn't wrong,... in a static environment.

If you took two stock-sized cast iron rotors and stuck them in the oven till they both hit 750f (not hard to reach under medium hard braking) and then removed them and placed them in open air to cool, the crossdrilled rotor would in fact cool slightly quicker. This happens for 2 reasons; 1st, the crossdrilled rotor does in fact have more surface area to dissipate heat by radiation and convection. The other reason (which will become more important later) is that with both rotors being the same size, the crossdrilled rotor will have less mass (you just removed material by drilling all those holes). Since any given material has a given specific heat capacity, removal of material mass = reduced heat capacity = less total thermal energy stored and less to dissipate. A 1kg iron ball heated to 750f will cool much faster than a 1000kg iron ball heated to the same temperature.

Now, the theory works in a static environment but how does it work in a dynamic environment? Not quite as well. Now some folks say, well, more holes, more airflow. Nope, not really. See, there's a world of a difference between the channels of a vented rotor and the holes through the face when it's crossdrilled.

A vented rotor functions like an impeller, similar to the compressor in a turbocharger, or the impeller in a hairdryer. As the rotor spins, it accelerates air radially outward through the vanes while sucking air in at the center (just as a hairdryer or turbo does). The faster the rotor spins, the faster (and more) air flows through it. Well how about those crossdrilled holes? The problem is that those holes are axial to the rotation, not radial like the vents in a vented rotor.

The vented rotor as mentioned, uses centrifugal acceleration to move air through the vanes/vents. The axially drilled holes don't really get much airflow at all though. The crossdrilled holes are perpendicular to the rotation of the rotor. If you can't quite picture why there's little airflow through those holes, here's a simple experiment to try or visualize. Take a regular drinking straw and cut it so it's about an inch long. Fill it with powder and then hold it in front of a fan so the ends are completely perpendicular to the airflow from the fan. Yes, the airflow will actually suck some of the powder out of the ends of the straw (due in part to Bernoulli's principle. The faster a fluid moves, the lower it's pressure, and in this case, air = the fluid, but in this scenario, mostly due to the turbulence as it passes the ends of the straw). It will not evacuate all the powder though because there is low pressure at either end of the tube. No air flowing through it the way air flows through the radial vents.

So now we realize that the crossdrilled holes don't really do much for airflow and they're no longer really needed for outgassing, but the possibility of crossdrilled brakes actually being WORSE than plain or slotted? Huh?

Well, it comes back to that earlier bit about mass and thermal capacity. Now this comes into play when the brakes are really stressed hard (on roadcourses, or spirited driving, or even coming down a long descent). As mentioned in my previous post, all brake pads have a MOT (maximum operating temperature). When you exceed the MOT, the pad surface/material actually begins to liquefy/melt. It's actually the binders holding the composite material together that's giving out. It's obvious that you want to keep the brake rotor temps below the pad's MOT. You can always get pads with a higher MOT if you anticipate higher brake temps (like race pads with MOT's to 2000+f), but there's a limit. Pads actually have a temp range. Pads with a higher MOT also have a raised Minimum OT. They don't brake well until the brakes have heated up to the Min OT (which is why race pads are a bad idea for street use).

So now you have street pads with a limited MOT (some are still better than others). Seemed like we digressed a little from rotors didn't we?

Well here's the tie-in. Whenever you use the brakes, the brake system is merely an energy conversion system. It converts kinetic energy (the car's motion) into thermal energy. It then must dissipate this thermal energy. Every braking system has a rate of thermal dissipation though and if you were ever foolish enough to try touching your brake rotors after coming home from a drive, you'ld have realized that the brakes don't really dissipate heat very quickly.

In hard use, one single maximum brake application from 70 mph can get the rotors and pads to 700+f, but if you drive off again, after 1 full minute, the rotors will still be at 400+f. Now if you had to hit the brakes again, they're not starting from ambient temp anymore. You've already filled them up with some heat which they haven't yet managed to empty.

As you can see, each repeated braking event adds more heat into the system. If the rate you add heat to the system exceeds the rate at which they can dissipate the heat, you will hit the system's (the rotor's) thermal capacity.

See the rotors in the brakes are there for 2 things. One is to act as a surface for mechanical leverage for the pads to act on to retard the car's momentum, and the other important purpose is as a heatsink, to absorb all the heat generated from braking. The more kinetic energy you will be converting to thermal energy, the bigger the heatsink required, so heavier vehicles and faster ones need bigger rotors.

When you hit the rotor's thermal capacity, each subsequent braking event causes the temps to skyrocket because the rotor can no longer absorb any heat. This means that you can very easily shoot past the pad's MOT causing pad fade.

The main purpose of bigger brake kits is to allow for bigger rotors. The primary reason for this is not to increase the leverage/mechanical advantage with larger diameters, since you can increase braking torque simply by using a pad with a higher mu (coefficient of friction). The primary reason is to allow rotors with greater mass and thus greater thermal capacity. This allows not harder braking, but consistent, repeated hard braking without exceeding the system's thermal cap.

With crossdrilled rotors, you have reduced the mass of the rotors and thus reduced their thermal capacity. You will now reach thermal capacity more easily and the miniscule increase in heat dissipation afforded by the crossdrilled holes compared to plain doesn't come even close to making up for the loss of mass.

In professional racing where cast iron rotors are mandated, NO teams use crossdrilled rotors. Aside from the disadvantages of reduced thermal capacity (with no real measured advantage in thermal dissipation), crossdrilled rotors are also more prone to crack and frag. Some teams will use slotted rotors, but NONE of them use crossdrilled rotors.

So if there are no advantages, why are they still all over the place? An insider for a well known sportscar company was charged with testing crossdrilled rotors vs. plain rotors for their sportscars. The tests showed that the plain rotors had equal braking performance, better consistency and endurance, and gave better brake pad life. In addition, not needing to have crossdrilled rotors lowered costs too. So why do their cars still have crossdrilled rotors? When they put the test results to use and put plain rotors on their cars, most potential customers looking at the cars in the showroom commented more or less, "You'ld think for a top-end sportscar, they could at least have installed high-performance crossdrilled brakes". The company realized that most folks are still misguided and that they could potentially lose sales to these misperceptions. So they put crossdrilled rotors back on the cars. They just made sure they were big enough that even with the crossdrilling, they had sufficient mass for the projected application.

As for slotted rotors. Well, most race teams use either plain or slotted. What's the purpose/advantage of slotted rotors? Well if your pads still outgas, they do have an avenue for escape without floating the pads. The slots don't actually remove much material from the rotor and the slots themselves do 2 things. The edge of the slots increases pad bite which provides slightly higher brake torque and the slots sweep the pad face continually under braking which helps de-glaze the pad face. Under high heat, it's sometimes possible for the binders in the pad to secerete and glaze over the pad face which results in a (possibly severe)loss of brake torque. The slots pretty much scrape the pad continuously preventing this. They also keep the pad face even. The downside? All this scraping eats pads quicker.

Plain rotors for street driving, maximum pad longevity and potentially hard use. Slotted for a lot of projected hard use if you don't mind reduced pad life. Crossdrilled.... only for the bling. To impress the clueless and to show the rest of us that you're clueless.


Max
 
Why does Porsche, in their Cayman & 911 for example, and Ferrair, in their 612 Scaglietti, 599 GTB Fiorano, and F430 for example, continue to use ventilated and cross-drilled rotors?

"each disc is internally vented and cross-drilled for better fade resistance and improved braking in wet conditions."

"Superior braking in wet weather is facilitated by cross drilling the 911 Carrera’s massive brake discs to dissipate water vapor pressure. Each disc is also internally vented for improved heat dispersal and reduced fade."
 
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Why does Porsche, in their Cayman & 911 for example, and Ferrair, in their 612 Scaglietti, 599 GTB Fiorano, and F430 for example, continue to use ventilated and cross-drilled rotors?

"each disc is internally vented and cross-drilled for better fade resistance and improved braking in wet conditions."

"Superior braking in wet weather is facilitated by cross drilling the 911 Carrera’s massive brake discs to dissipate water vapor pressure. Each disc is also internally vented for improved heat dispersal and reduced fade."



It is possible to see improvement in wet weather braking with crossdrilled (or slotted) rotors especially brake caliper designs using very large/long pads as it is possible for the water on the rotors to float the pads a little. Most current brake pads have a channel at the midpoint that prevents this though.

You will notice how almost all high end manufacturers will word crossdrilling in very ambiguous sentences though. The one above is a perfect example. The informed person will see that they mean the vented rotors decrease brake fade and improve cooling,and the crossdrilling provides a benefit (slight) in wet braking, but they tend to word it ambiguously so folks who don't really know will take it to mean that the crossdrilling helps cool rotors and increase fade resistance. Brembo is notorious for making ambiguous statements like this because they tend to sell a lot of crossdrilled rotors for which they charge a premium over plain rotors.

If you read the gigantic (multiple repeated
pat2.gif
) post above, you'll see why sportscar manufacturers still have crossdrilled brakes on their cars. Marketing. If the sheeple think it's good, let's give them what they want.

Keep in mind that a lot of folks with these misguided perceptions are the older folks who remember this from back when these things HAD a real purpose. Crossdrilled brakes did offer better braking on sportscars back in the 60's to 70's due to the lack of pad compound technology. But these older buyers tend to make up the majority that have the available funds to purchase these newer performance vehicles, so the manufacturers cater to them.

You don't want to lose a sale because some old guy who is not up on modern brake systems and brake pad techology comes into your showroom, looks at your car and thinks, "Huh, at least the competitor includes high performance crossdrilled brakes at this price in THEIR car".

Here's another example of obsolete standards and perceptions. The last time I was at a tire shop getting my Yokohama Advan Neova's mounted (some of the best and stickiest non R-compound summer street tires you can get), some old guy pulled in with a Porsche and asked about getting new tires. One of the questions he asked when the shop guy recommended a specific tire was, "Are these Z-rated?"

Now anyone who keeps up with current tire info and tech knows that for high end sportscars, ZR tires are NOT where it's at. You tell an older gentleman like this one that the tire you're recommending is W-rated or Y-rated and you'ld better be ready with an explanation right quick, because the first thing that'll pop into his head is, "Huh, this dummy is recommending a poorer performance tire than I'm asking for. I drive a PORSCHE, not a minivan!".

The reason the older guy asked the question is because back in the day, the industry figured that a rating of 149+mph was as fast as would ever be required. Most of us know that they realized their mistake as cars got faster and faster and added the WR (168+mph) and YR (186+mph) ratings later, but a lot of older folks who don't know this only remember that all the lower alphabets like HR and TR are all rated for lower speeds than the ultimate top-rated ZR, and to their reasoning, W and Y are both lower than Z.

Did you know that this is one of the major reasons why some tire manufacturers still have ZR on the side of the tire?

eg. 245/40/18ZR 93Y

They still include the ZR-rating on the side of the tire because they know some .... 'old-school' folks still look for it because they still think ZR is the best/highest speed rating for performance tires, even though the 93Y is the relevant thing to look for (93 being the tire's load index and the Y indicates it's good for 186+mph). Good marketing. Give the sheeple what they're looking for.


Max
 
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