Kerosene

[MolaKule]

Quote:
No boron no esters, according to you OK.


No, the results of advanced, analytical instrumentation, a part of the scientific method.

Quote:
I'm asking where the smell of Marvel Oil comes from if its not wintergreen oil?


Odorants (frangances) are used in a lot of products to mask various chemical odors.

Quote:
The kero stink is pretty tough to hide. Can that smell be created with other chemicals? If yes what? Some fair questions I think.


Not if you hydroprocess kerosene and add odorants. See above.


Quote:
BTW a simple search of the www shows a lot of refs of the wintegreen oil being used in Marvel Oil. Which leads me to the line of questions i asked-RD


And what labs and instrumentation were used to determine those constituents?

Inferences, repeated misinformation, and innuendos does not constitute a thorough lab analysis.

 

[CentAmDL650]

In several earlier threads, I recall seeing the source of the phosphorous in MMO was a compound called tri cresyl phosphate, which like the ortho- and para- chlorinated benzenes acts as an EP and AW additive (supposedly has a violet colouring as well). Any validity to that claim, or perhaps an educated guess as to the makeup of the other chemicals which would contain that phosphorous?

 

[MolaKule]

That was mostly a guess.

The chemical signature for the source of phosphorus was TCP, or tri-cresylphosphate, which is primarily an anti-wear additive. The amount of phos in MMO is used to make up for the reduction of phos when MMO is added to motor oil.

EP chemistry are compounds associated with sulfur-phosphorus linkages.

The ortho- and para- chlorinated benzene chemistry's are simply strong scavenger solvents and provide no anti-wear properties.

 

[MolaKule]

I often Marvel (pun intended) that when facts are presented which dispel myths and correct misinformation, the messenger is branded as an XXX product hater.

This type of vacuous argument is often brought up when the facts dispel the myth, or when they disagree with error filled misinformation.

In logic, this type of behavior is often associated with the, "Fallacy of Diversion."

The messenger could care less what you use, abuse, or where you spend your money.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: rockydee


Kerosene, red dye, and no wintergreen oil is that the bobistheoilguy final analysis? Maybe they created the wintergreen scent in the lab with some other chemicals? Or maybe no one tested for it @ bobs? I'm scratching my head on this one.-RD


Apparently you don't understand MSDS or chemical analysis.

An MSDS will show potentially hazardous components, but is not required to show every last constituent of a product. A wintergreen scent, which is an Esther of salycilic acid (which you use in skin care amongst other things) is likely benign and unnecessary.

Your claim of kerosene is also dubious. Tell me how YOU would discern specifics out of something simple like a GC FID like these, let alone anything more complex.

Those are comparisons of two hydrocarbon cuts. Naphthenic hydrocarbons or whatever the MMO carrier is would likely look different. For example, one of the FIDs I showed above was for a heavy (high flashpoint) jet fuel. Gasoline has a far different trace, which I'd guess to be more like how naphtha if hydrocarbons would look if one was testing for kerosine.

Might different, no?

And you can be assured that if they were looking for esters and whatnot, let alone elemental components, that they were doing far more advanced testing than I show here looking just at hydrocarbons.

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I often Marvel (pun intended) that when facts are presented which dispel myths and correct misinformation, the messenger is branded as an XXX product hater.

This type of vacuous argument is often brought up when the facts dispel the myth, or when they disagree with error filled misinformation.

In logic, this type of behavior is often associated with the, "Fallacy of Diversion."

The messenger could care less what you use, abuse, or where you spend your money.





Molakule, your patience and restraint in this thread are to be applauded as is the fact that you continued to educate the unwilling.

We are fortunate that you share your experience and expertise. It is something you choose to do to help others and many of us appreciate that a lot.

I do hope that the behavior of the few immature posters who came into this thread does not put you off from continuing to educate us.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: aa1986



...Molakule, your patience and restraint in this thread are to be applauded as is the fact that you continued to educate the unwilling.

We are fortunate that you share your experience and expertise. It is something you choose to do to help others and many of us appreciate that a lot.

I do hope that the behavior of the few immature posters who came into this thread does not put you off from continuing to educate us.


Thanks.

I am not put off by any comments and as an educator and consultant one has to have patience.

And BTW there are a number of people here at BITOG, other than me, who possess a great deal of knowledge wrt to chemistry and analysis.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


And you can be assured that if they were looking for esters and whatnot, let alone elemental components, that they were doing far more advanced testing than I show here looking just at hydrocarbons.



Thanks for the great explanation on GC spectrum.

We use:
1. IR spectral methods such as GC-FTIR,
2. LC-MS,
3. H-NMR, C-NMR (DEPT mode),
4. electron ionization mass spectrometry (EI-MS, ESI-MS), and
5. near UV (N-UV) instrumentation.
and others.

with 1 and 4 being mostly used.

With 4, I can tell you the relative abundance of an ester in a complex mixture.

With 3, I can tell you the acids and alcohols it is made from and derive the chemical formula.

Pretty neat stuff.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I often Marvel (pun intended) that when facts are presented which dispel myths and correct misinformation, the messenger is branded as an XXX product hater.

This type of vacuous argument is often brought up when the facts dispel the myth, or when they disagree with error filled misinformation.

In logic, this type of behavior is often associated with the, "Fallacy of Diversion."

The messenger could care less what you use, abuse, or where you spend your money.



Couldn't agree more.

BTW, I've cleaned and prepared my Mosin-Nagants for our hunt next time you're here

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: aa1986
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I often Marvel (pun intended) that when facts are presented which dispel myths and correct misinformation, the messenger is branded as an XXX product hater.

This type of vacuous argument is often brought up when the facts dispel the myth, or when they disagree with error filled misinformation.

In logic, this type of behavior is often associated with the, "Fallacy of Diversion."

The messenger could care less what you use, abuse, or where you spend your money.





Molakule, your patience and restraint in this thread are to be applauded as is the fact that you continued to educate the unwilling.

We are fortunate that you share your experience and expertise. It is something you choose to do to help others and many of us appreciate that a lot.

I do hope that the behavior of the few immature posters who came into this thread does not put you off from continuing to educate us.


Let's not forget JHZR2, Shannow, edhackett to name a few.

 

[aa1986]

Doug Hillary and dnewton also come to mind. And Trav's mechanical advice is excellent too.

 

[MolaKule]

Absolutely.

Quote:
And BTW there are a number of people here at BITOG, other than me, who possess a great deal of knowledge wrt to chemistry and analysis.


And Solarent, Gmorg, Garak, Boomer, as well.

I hesitated to name all those knowledgeable contributors for fear I would miss someone.

I apologize if I have missed others.

 

[MrQuackers]

"experts"

Many "experts" get a lot of things tragically wrong.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
"experts"

Many "experts" get a lot of things tragically wrong.


Good point, and in all walks of life.

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
"experts"

Many "experts" get a lot of things tragically wrong.


Yes except here we're talking about the simple act of reading a lab analysis.

 

[Mystic]

Maybe you could say people screw up lab reports too, just read some of the UOA's on the board. Or ask people who had labs screw up their blood work.

 

[aa1986]

Molakule previously posted this in response to the line of questioning he was receiving.

And now doubts are being cast on the veracity of his lab analysis.

Sorry to say this but I think you two are getting this discussion way out of perspective.

I really don't understand why the upset over a lab analysis that showed MMO was mainly kerosene dyed red without any oil of wintergreen.

Btw, a mod came into this thread already and commented on the validity of the analysis.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I often Marvel (pun intended) that when facts are presented which dispel myths and correct misinformation, the messenger is branded as an XXX product hater.

This type of vacuous argument is often brought up when the facts dispel the myth, or when they disagree with error filled misinformation.

In logic, this type of behavior is often associated with the, "Fallacy of Diversion."

The messenger could care less what you use, abuse, or where you spend your money.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
"experts"

Many "experts" get a lot of things tragically wrong.


Good point, and in all walks of life.


Slightly OT as well but then a couple of recommendations are in order:

1. Don't go to a doctor when you're feeling sick,

2. Don't go to the Hospital when you're feeling sick,

3. Don't pick up your prescriptions from a pharmacy when you're feeling sick,

4. Don't go to a mechanic or dealer when your car is on the fritx,

5. Don't go to a computer repair facility when your computer doesn't work.

 

[aa1986]

^

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
"experts"

Many "experts" get a lot of things tragically wrong.


Good point, and in all walks of life.


Slightly OT as well but then a couple of recommendations are in order:

1. Don't go to a doctor when you're feeling sick,

2. Don't go to the Hospital when you're feeling sick,

3. Don't pick up your prescriptions from a pharmacy when you're feeling sick,

4. Don't go to a mechanic or dealer when your car is on the fritx,

5. Don't go to a computer repair facility when your computer doesn't work.

Good points. Sometimes you have to roll the dice and trust your instincts. It also helps to know who you're dealing with, my doctor, pharmacist, and mechanic [if I need one] are people I know. I fix my own computer. They're not nameless faceless people hiding behind a keyboard like we do here.

In case you missed my reason for quoting and agreeing with Mr.Quackers here it is: No one is perfect, even experts, so called experts, or self proclaimed experts or Ph.D's, they screw up on occasion too. It's called a fact of life.

Lets see if the pack of wolves circling are ready to jump on in. LOL