Honda ATF change recommendations

[Brybo86]

Originally Posted By: satinsilver
One drain/fill every 30k on an I4 should be fine according to a Honda tech another forum. Who works at a Chicago area dealer and seems to really know his stuff.


I hope it isn't Carr Honda on the northside as every one of their employees act like a female rinsing device.

 

[y_p_w]

I had a dry run to see if I could reach the drain bolt without lifting the car. I also tried out my long funnel, and it wouldn't go in straight because of some mount right next to the dipstick/fill hole. So I squeezed some 1/2" vinyl tubing into the end and it wedges in nicely. I might tape down in just in case.

And the bolt location is nasty. Right next to a suspension part. I saw a DIY vid where someone taped cardboard down to route the drained fluid straight down. Sounds like a good idea. I don't want to think what a dealer would charge for this, especially multiple times. I'll probably do it again next weekend. Now I understand DW-1 softens the shifts. My wife has no problem if it does.

 

[user52165]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I had a dry run to see if I could reach the drain bolt without lifting the car. I also tried out my long funnel, and it wouldn't go in straight because of some mount right next to the dipstick/fill hole. So I squeezed some 1/2" vinyl tubing into the end and it wedges in nicely. I might tape down in just in case.

And the bolt location is nasty. Right next to a suspension part. I saw a DIY vid where someone taped cardboard down to route the drained fluid straight down. Sounds like a good idea. I don't want to think what a dealer would charge for this, especially multiple times. I'll probably do it again next weekend. Now I understand DW-1 softens the shifts. My wife has no problem if it does.


Heavy duty (not the thin, cheap stuff) aluminum foil works even better. Use several layers. You can form it and route exactly where you want it.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I started a topic on vague recommendations, but I suppose this one has me stumped.

For my wife's 2002 Civic, the recommended ATF change period is 120,000 miles or 10 years. Now this is where the fun starts. I don't think it's ever been changed and my wife doesn't remember having this done.

The owners manual says that to do a "thorough flush", they recommend 4 complete drain and fills. The manual is odd - it says do it three times and then a final time. But then it says it should be "drained and refilled" according to the maintenance schedule. But it doesn't specify if this is a single drain and refill or the "flush" as they describe it.

Quote:
http://owners.honda.com/assets/OWNERLINK/Model/own_man/2002CivicSd.pdf

To thoroughly flush the
transmission, the technician
should drain and refill it with
Honda ATF-Z1, then drive the
vehicle a short distance. Do this
three times. Then drain and refill
the transmission a final time.

** ** **

The transmission should be drained
and refilled with new fluid according
to the time and distance recommen-
dations in the maintenance schedule.

Now if I had owned this car from the start, I probably would have done a single drain and fill every 30,000 miles. That may not be absolutely necessarily, but it would make me feel better.

And the M18 crush washer is $3 at a Honda dealer. Not sure why the huge price difference compared to an otherwise similarly made M14 washer for oil changes. I even remember when Honda autos drained out of a bolt that took the same crush washer.


If the Trans Fluid is Dark brown just leave it in and prey that it lasts, b.c if you change the ATF and put new ATF in there it will clean all the varnish and sludge off the tranny and it will CLOG the filter and Hondas Trans filter is inside the Tranny and cant be changed unless the transmission is removed... I have seen this happen many times.

I have seen people with a tranny that was running fine and the fluid was brownish and they did 4 drains and fills and within a month the tranny was bad.

Now you might be able to do 1 drain and fill if you wish.. but I would leave it alone depending on what color the tranny fluid is now

 

[Jim Allen]

To the OP and anyone else who reads this down the road. Ignore the advice above.

Change the fluid. Good fluid is better than bad fluid. Leaving bad fluid in is certain death.

If a trans dies after a fluid change, it was already a zombie. A fluid change will never hurt, and only help, a good tranny and is never the cause of failure of a good trans.

The scenario that gave rise to this "new fluid kills transmissions myth" is rooted with people who have a sick, dying trans that they are trying to save without actually spending much money. They do a fluid change. The trans dies. To those that don't know better, the logic is...'"Change fluid bad!"

The true logic is more complex.

A good deal of what makes up a trans fluid are friction modifiers. These are one of the things that eventually "wear out" as the fluid ages. Trans fluid can also thicken as it ages from oxidation.

So take a neglected or worn out trans with neglected, worn out oil. The worn clutch plates are barely grabbing as it is, but since the friction modifiers are all but gone (they tend to make the oil more "slippery") the nasty oil actually enhances their ability to grip. Also, the oxidation-thickened oil is covering up all the internal hydraulic leaks and pressure drops that might decrease apply pressure on those worn parts.

So you install new fluid. It may be significantly thinner than the goop already in there, so apply pressures may be reduced. It's also chock full of friction modifiers that make the oil slipperier. Net eftect; trans starts to slip like mad and gets towed to the tranny shop... where it should have gone long ago.

Dark fluid in itself not a sign of bad fluid, especially in a Honda, which is known for making the fluid dark early. This was especially true of Z1. I had some dark Z1 tested out of my Honda ('00 Accord) and it was perfectly fine. Don't assume dark fluid is a sign of immanent death unless it's accompanied by bad drivability symptoms. If it's dark and burnt smelling, that's a more serious sign but, again, unless accompanied by bad symptoms, it's not a guarantee of a problem.

The morals:

1) Change the oil on a regular basis as needed or specified.

2) If you trans begins to slip or shift badly, get it to the tranny shop. An oil change is a moot point by then most of the time.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
To the OP and anyone else who reads this down the road. Ignore the advice above.

Change the fluid. Good fluid is better than bad fluid. Leaving bad fluid in is certain death.

If a trans dies after a fluid change, it was already a zombie. A fluid change will never hurt, and only help, a good tranny and is never the cause of failure of a good trans.

The scenario that gave rise to this "new fluid kills transmissions myth" is rooted with people who have a sick, dying trans that they are trying to save without actually spending much money. They do a fluid change. The trans dies. To those that don't know better, the logic is...'"Change fluid bad!"

The true logic is more complex.

A good deal of what makes up a trans fluid are friction modifiers. These are one of the things that eventually "wear out" as the fluid ages. Trans fluid can also thicken as it ages from oxidation.

So take a neglected or worn out trans with neglected, worn out oil. The worn clutch plates are barely grabbing as it is, but since the friction modifiers are all but gone (they tend to make the oil more "slippery") the nasty oil actually enhances their ability to grip. Also, the oxidation-thickened oil is covering up all the internal hydraulic leaks and pressure drops that might decrease apply pressure on those worn parts.

So you install new fluid. It may be significantly thinner than the goop already in there, so apply pressures may be reduced. It's also chock full of friction modifiers that make the oil slipperier. Net eftect; trans starts to slip like mad and gets towed to the tranny shop... where it should have gone long ago.

Dark fluid in itself not a sign of bad fluid, especially in a Honda, which is known for making the fluid dark early. This was especially true of Z1. I had some dark Z1 tested out of my Honda ('00 Accord) and it was perfectly fine. Don't assume dark fluid is a sign of immanent death unless it's accompanied by bad drivability symptoms. If it's dark and burnt smelling, that's a more serious sign but, again, unless accompanied by bad symptoms, it's not a guarantee of a problem.

The morals:

1) Change the oil on a regular basis as needed or specified.

2) If you trans begins to slip or shift badly, get it to the tranny shop. An oil change is a moot point by then most of the time.




Wait Wait Wait.

What Im saying is if you have a car with 130K miles and its orginal tranny fluid Im sure you can agree there is going to be lots of sludge and varnish all over the tranny parts..

I can only imagine what the ATF Magnetic plug looks like, Im sure its loaded..

anways.. All Im saying is on a Honda when you change the tranny fluid and its never been changed and has 130K miles on it and put new fluid, that new fluid is going to clean up tha tranny and its going to plug up the Tranmission FILTER... I have seen this happen.

Honda Oddesy had 164K miles on it... It shifted fine and was perfect but he wanted to do a drain and fill.. I told him just wait a week and it was fine all week... it was fine the whole time he had the Van.

Then we did the drain and fills and within a week the tranny Died.. When we both went to the trans shop we saw the Honda Tranny Filter and it was so FULLL OF SLUDGE.... Even the Tech showed us the filter and said let me guess you changed the FLUID???

We said YES Sir and he told us... However I warned the owner....

In reality its the Trans filter that get clogged up and causes the problems

Im shocked you would say that

I have seen this many times.

 

[Jim Allen]

No I can't agree. I've rebuilt many automatics, both as a tech and after I retired from wrenching, and was factory trained by Land Rover and Ford to do it.

As I said, any trans that dies after a fluid change was on borrowed time anyway and older Odyssey transmissions are about the worst of the Honda bunch because they make an already weak passenger car trans do the work of a minivan hauler. I think strongly that neglect upon neglect is the wrong way to handle things most of the time. You are trying to make a "general rule" based on one or a few instances. I think that is bad, BAD practice as a general rule. I would only apply your "rule" to neglected 164K mile Odysseys. The most I can agree with is that the oil change might have accelerated the death spiral a little.

Also, in the cases where I had some direct connections to something similar to what you described, the trans was not operating as "perfectly" as often described. The trans usually degrades gradually, so gradually that it appears to be "normal" to the driver. If you compared the performance to new or at least "normally good" you might have noted a difference.

Honda automatics have had so many issues over the years that they are a special breed. I regularly dance the happy dance that my nearly 14 year old Honda Accord V6 (we bought it new) has not cacked, despite meticulous maintenance.

So, you've PERSONALLY seen this many times or are you repeating what you personally saw repeated second to tenth hand on some Honda forum?

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
No I can't agree. I've rebuilt many automatics, both as a tech and after I retired from wrenching, and was factory trained by Land Rover and Ford to do it.

As I said, any trans that dies after a fluid change was on borrowed time anyway and older Odyssey transmissions are about the worst of the Honda bunch because they make an already weak passenger car trans do the work of a minivan hauler. I think strongly that neglect upon neglect is the wrong way to handle things most of the time. You are trying to make a "general rule" based on one or a few instances. I think that is bad, BAD practice as a general rule. I would only apply your "rule" to neglected 164K mile Odysseys. The most I can agree with is that the oil change might have accelerated the death spiral a little.

Also, in the cases where I had some direct connections to something similar to what you described, the trans was not operating as "perfectly" as often described. The trans usually degrades gradually, so gradually that it appears to be "normal" to the driver. If you compared the performance to new or at least "normally good" you might have noted a difference.

Honda automatics have had so many issues over the years that they are a special breed. I regularly dance the happy dance that my nearly 14 year old Honda Accord V6 (we bought it new) has not cacked, despite meticulous maintenance.

So, you've PERSONALLY seen this many times or are you repeating what you personally saw repeated second to tenth hand on some Honda forum?



I basically grew up in a Garage, When I was a kid my father who owned a Shell gas station used to lift me up on the hydrolic hoist is what they used in them days.....

Remember they looked like this?

and back in them days Gas Stations has Garages... We had 4 Sunocos and 1 Shell gas sation and when the oil companies wanted to put FOOD MARTS and take out the garages we sold the bussiness...

Now we own a famous Auto Care / Car Sales in Michigan and I worked there from 15 years old till I was in my 30s

So I have seen it all.

Also I have a Honda Accord V6 and I take care of the Tranny very well.

180K miles on the Original Transmission

Also now garages uses Electric lifts to raise the cars... However Im sure you remember them old ones with the yellow ends that were sorta a X shape and they had Oil and most leaked a lil.

However I disagree with what your saying and only on the part of the trns filter getting clogged up after you take a dirty sludge filled trans mission and put good clean ATF in it and Im sure you know ATF is HIGH in Detergent and it cleans the transmission and where do think all that sludge goes???? It goes in the filter and what happens when that HONDA Filter gets 100% Clogged up??? There is no bypass in them

they are just a lil plastic / strainer thing

This is the sludge Im talking about

 

[davebarnum]

^ Not sludge. ^

Those are metallic particles attracted to the magnetic drain plug.

 

[Jim Allen]

I starting working at gas stations in 1968, did so for a few years, went into the army and worked on marine diesels on ships for three years, then came out and worked at a variety of shops and dealers for 20 years, became an ASE Master Tech, then switched to being automotive journalist for the next 23, specializing in tech stories. If you've seen "all" I don't have the word for what I've seen.

ATF is NOT a particularly high detergency oil. Motor oil has much higher levels of detergency than ATF. Engines need detergency much more than transmissions because they are an open system (air breathers) and have to face combustion byproducts. Trans is closed has only heat to deal with so needs little detergency in comparison. Look for posts by MolaKule and Whitewolf, both of whom are pros in the field with great experience with ATF. We've had this detergency discussion before.

Honda's don't have a filter, at least not the early ones. All they have is a pickup screen that cannot be service without disassembling the trans.

That picture shows ferro-paste on a magnet, not necessarily "sludge." If you have a picture of the pickup screen, that would be more useful in making a point.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: davebarnum
^ Not sludge. ^

Those are metallic particles attracted to the magnetic drain plug.


In other words SLUDGE from the Transmission

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: ThirdeYe
In the Honda and Acura I've changed fluid on (both 4-cyl) they didn't have a fill plug. You filled them through the hole that the dipstick goes into.


Mine has a FILL PLUG and its TIGHT as heck

look at pics

It will say ATF on it.. You cant miss it , but its very hard to get OFF.
I just use a turkey baster and take the top off and pour it in... You just need to long of a extention to get to the one on top

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
On the Odyssey of that vintage (5sp AT from '02 - early '04), that plug was replaced with an oil jet (basically a tube mounted in the hole) in an effort to prevent overheating of 2nd gear. IIRC, those have a 10mm bolt to hold it to the trans. housing. I don't know if it's the same in the Accord. In the Odyssey, it's almost straight down behind the battery, in the top of transmission housing. Look to see what's there.


They also add trans coolers or lines that sent ATF to the radiator to cool the ATF so it woould cool the tranny.

Some people add a extra one..

what does lubegaurd box say?

If you can drop the temp of you ATF 10 degrees you double the life of your ATF and if you can drop the temp of you Automatic Tranny 10 degrees you get double the life out of it.

Something like that

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I had a dry run to see if I could reach the drain bolt without lifting the car. I also tried out my long funnel, and it wouldn't go in straight because of some mount right next to the dipstick/fill hole. So I squeezed some 1/2" vinyl tubing into the end and it wedges in nicely. I might tape down in just in case.

And the bolt location is nasty. Right next to a suspension part. I saw a DIY vid where someone taped cardboard down to route the drained fluid straight down. Sounds like a good idea. I don't want to think what a dealer would charge for this, especially multiple times. I'll probably do it again next weekend. Now I understand DW-1 softens the shifts. My wife has no problem if it does.



Lots of memebers here on this forum swear by VALVOLINE MAXX LIFE, Its 100% Synthetic and it says in the back Honda Z1 and DW1

also people use Castrol Mutlti Import and or High Milage and it says Honda Z1 and DW1 on the bottle also , however the Castrol is NOT even a syn blend

Look at pics below

That is why many people swear by MAXX LIFE ATF.

Personally I use HONDA DW-1, However I might try 3 Quarts and a half quard of DW-1 I have left over on my next drain and FILL.

I just hear to many people saying good things.

I do not htink it will hurt to try it

IM not going to change 100% so probably wont hurt and if I feel improvement , I mean who knows

Honda does charge wayyyyyyyyyy to much for DW-1

The new bottles says DW-1
these are old pics

Here is Castrol HIGH MILEAGE ATF

Even SUPERTECH Says HONDA AT-Z1

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: David1
Originally Posted By: davebarnum
^ Not sludge. ^

Those are metallic particles attracted to the magnetic drain plug.


In other words SLUDGE from the Transmission

By definition, "sludge" is oxidative byproducts. Those are mostly metallic particles attracted to a magnet.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: David1
Originally Posted By: davebarnum
^ Not sludge. ^

Those are metallic particles attracted to the magnetic drain plug.


In other words SLUDGE from the Transmission

By definition, "sludge" is oxidative byproducts. Those are mostly metallic particles attracted to a magnet.


mostly but not all.

some of that is sludge with metal mixed in.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
[Jim Allen]That picture shows ferro-paste on a magnet, not necessarily "sludge." If you have a picture of the pickup screen, that would be more useful in making a point.


David1, agglomerated ferro-paste is NOT sludge.

 

[yesthatsteve]

Originally Posted By: David1
Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
On the Odyssey of that vintage (5sp AT from '02 - early '04), that plug was replaced with an oil jet (basically a tube mounted in the hole) in an effort to prevent overheating of 2nd gear. IIRC, those have a 10mm bolt to hold it to the trans. housing. I don't know if it's the same in the Accord. In the Odyssey, it's almost straight down behind the battery, in the top of transmission housing. Look to see what's there.


They also add trans coolers or lines that sent ATF to the radiator to cool the ATF so it woould cool the tranny.

Some people add a extra one..

what does lubegaurd box say?

If you can drop the temp of you ATF 10 degrees you double the life of your ATF and if you can drop the temp of you Automatic Tranny 10 degrees you get double the life out of it.

Something like that


The 4-speed in my '01 also has a radiator cooler. The return line currently has a Magnefine filter installed on it, because the 4-speed units do not have any filtration beyond internal screens that eventually clog with debris and lead to premature failure. The 5-speed units in the later 2nd gen Ody have an external filter that's positioned on top of the unit and below the battery tray.

Jim Allen, who's taken part in this discussion, has written a fairly compelling article on the importance of ATF filtration: http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-how-to/trailer-tech/tranny-filter-tech/

Lubegard recommends either the Platinum or Highly Friction Modified additive for the OP's Civic, and instructs users to add 1 ounce of additive per quart of ATF in the unit.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
[Jim Allen]That picture shows ferro-paste on a magnet, not necessarily "sludge." If you have a picture of the pickup screen, that would be more useful in making a point.


David1, agglomerated ferro-paste is NOT sludge.






Okay just think of a Transmission with 130K miles on it and the ATF FLUID has never been changed... Well this is what the inside of the Tranny looks like

Notice the screen / filter how its FULL.. Can you imagine how it is with a HONDA????
You cant get inside like this and clean the pan or change the filter, so then when you put in new ATF and it cleans up all the sludge what do you think happens?


Im sure most will agree they know what happens next

 

[Quakish]

first things I did on my 03 ody when i bought it (it was used with 60k on it)
1) replace the filter (the one yesthatsteve mentions above)
2) install tranny cooler
3) 4 x d&f with z-1

coming up to 100k and have done a couple more d&f's. not much on the drain magnet, fluid never looks brown, still red and smells pretty fresh as well.

i think a cooler is a must for anyone with this vintage v-6 honda.