Grow Up, Bob.

[Tempest]

Quote:
People may not like any form of government incentives, but I've seen them work here when our provincial government used them as a well implemented tool to turn our economy around.

I would love to read more about this. Do you have any links?

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Win
A state or states, being free to offer whatever local incentives it wants, can have a pretty destructive effect on established industries in other states.

The pervasiveness of federal turn back funds to the states may (or may not, I don't know) in fact enable or subsidize some of these local subsidies. So I'm not entirely convinced that even a local subsidy is in reality a local subsidy.



Absolutely. The federal taxes and distribution of funds to states seems to pretty much dictate everything so who knows what is really a local subsidy or not. If 2 domestic plants get closed down in other states and 1 transplant is opened in another state I guess that is considered a win for someone. I don't really see states competing for business as being so bad since anyone is free to live and work in any state. I just see imports even assembled in the US as net loss in jobs and revenue. Plus some of them do not even allow us into their auto market so I don't see how they should get subsidies.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
People may not like any form of government incentives, but I've seen them work here when our provincial government used them as a well implemented tool to turn our economy around.

I would love to read more about this. Do you have any links?


No links where its one of those things I've witnessed first hand rather than researched. At one time the provincial economy was driven mainly by the fishery industry. This goes back centuries to when this place was first settled and colonized (and it was the last province to join confederation - up until 1949 it was still a British colony).

The fishery crashed sometime in the 1980s and the province, which had always been a 'have not' province (it took in more in equalization payments from the feds than it paid out in federal taxes), became a 'have nothing' province. With the fishery as the driving economic industry that fed everything else, it created a ripple effect and our unemployment rate skyrocketed.

Our current Premier is extremely popular here (he's somewhat controversial and can be polarizing, but he wins every election by a landslide) because he turned the economy around by using tax incentives to lure in big business. It cost the government nothing because they spent nothing. Projects by previous governments aimed at job creation failed spectacularly and when the government funded them out of a non-existent tax base, the result was massive debt. One example was Sprung Greenhouse, when one of our more insane Premiers decided that the same province that this would be an ideal place to grow cucumbers. The catch was that because of our climate, they had to be grown hydroponically in a massive greenhouse lit 24/7 by halogen lamps.

We have offshore oil reserves here and our current Premier has been encouraging more and more exploration and development. This is also the windiest province in Canada, and he helped entice an alternative energy corporation to tap into that by building windmill projects.

Within the last decade, our minimum wage has almost doubled, we have one of the fastest growing economies in Canada, unemployment has dropped dramatically, and we've gone from being a 'have not' province to a 'have' province (we now, for the first time since joining confederation, pay more into the fed coffers than we take out in equalization payments).

I just know that when I moved back here 15 years ago to go to school, it was inevitable (at the time) that once I was finished I would leave to obtain work elsewhere in Canada. That was the common mindset at the time because there were no opportunities here. It never happened. I make a salary here now that, when I was in University, I could only conceive of making by leaving the province. And the provincial government has committed money to more projects to meet the needs of the public that need the services that the sector I work in provides (thanks to increased government revenues generated locally, which provides the money for them to spend on them) so opportunities just in my field are continually expanding here.

-Spyder

 

[Vilan]

How are we supposed to make fun of Newfies when you write eloquently? Throw us a bone here. Chug some screech or kiss a cod or something.

Glad things have turned around on the Rock. BC's been doing well enough... real estate prices are still ridiculous in Vancouver. Time to head east, perhaps.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: javacontour
... Yet local communities are free to offer incentives to lure business.

.....

To me, it's not a nationality of the carmaker as it's the appropriateness for a particular government organization to offer the incentives.

States and Local=OK in my book. Federal=NOGO in that same book.


Fair enough. I'm not trying to be terse, btw, I just should be working on other things.

The following is not so much an argument with any of the above as it is an observation.

A state or states, being free to offer whatever local incentives it wants, can have a pretty destructive effect on established industries in other states.

The pervasiveness of federal turn back funds to the states may (or may not, I don't know) in fact enable or subsidize some of these local subsidies. So I'm not entirely convinced that even a local subsidy is in reality a local subsidy.

I think these giveaways, be they front end loaded or back end loaded, are just a bad path to have headed down. And if we are going to head down that path, let other countries prop up their manufacturers, we have enough of our own to prop up without taking on theirs as well.


I guess if you are in a state that has industry lured away, it looks like that.

The question is, why don't the states that already have the industry do thing that encourage the business to stay?

Many times, the industry is treated like the goose that laid the golden egg and is taxed to the point where they can no longer compete.

It goes both ways. If the original site is run down, and the tax monies collected go into the pockets of the political leaders and those who helped them get there instead of making and keeping the community a better place, then why would an industry want to stay?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Vilan
How are we supposed to make fun of Newfies when you write eloquently? Throw us a bone here. Chug some screech or kiss a cod or something.

This reminds me of when I moved from Canada to the US. The jokes went from Newfie jokes to Polish jokes -- most of them are exactly the same, only with Polish people instead of Newfies. I was happy when I was finally able to start meeting Polish people, because I had never met a Newfie. It was good to be able to interact with a target of those jokes.

Every single Polish person I met was very intelligent and a lot of fun to hang out with. It became quite a valuable lesson for a teenager.

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
I guess if you are in a state that has industry lured away, it looks like that.

The question is, why don't the states that already have the industry do thing that encourage the business to stay?

Many times, the industry is treated like the goose that laid the golden egg and is taxed to the point where they can no longer compete.


The nation as a whole is also being run by a group who seem unconcerned that more and more industries will shut down here and move somewhere else in the world, somewhere with lower taxes and fewer regulations.

Every day we hear that businesses are sitting on piles of cash, but not investing or building or hiring. They are waiting to see which way the political winds blow, to see whether it makes sense to invest one more dollar in the American economy or just to pull up stakes and move to Brazil or somewhere else.

I tell people that the US cannot recover until California recovers -- California is the state which has been most actively driving away business. If California fixes itself, then maybe there is hope for the country, but vice versa too.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Many times, the industry is treated like the goose that laid the golden egg and is taxed to the point where they can no longer compete.

Sure, as a business owner myself, I am intimately acquainted with the concept of being milked like a cow for the benefit of the government. That by itself is bad enough, but when some new business comes along lured by taxpayer incentives and giveaways, that's just another milking of existing business for the benefit of another business. It's outrageous.

And when it is a new business being subsidized and that will directly compete with an existing business, it's an unfair trade practice. There is no rational argument to the contrary.

When a dirt poor state like Mississippi gives away the farm to lure in a Prius (sp?) plant, it's naive to think that any revenue shortfall caused thereby will not be made up with revenue derived from other sources. And when a plant in Ohio goes out of business because of a subsidy somewhere else, it is naive to think that any revenue shortfalls there will not be made up from the federal pot. Thus, I am dubious of the concept that as a federal taxpayer, I am not subsidizing these local giveaways.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
It goes both ways. If the original site is run down, and the tax monies collected go into the pockets of the political leaders and those who helped them get there instead of making and keeping the community a better place, then why would an industry want to stay?

That's a different issue isn't it, but imagine the outrage if those monies go to subsidize a new startup to compete with the business that has been milked for years.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Vilan
How are we supposed to make fun of Newfies when you write eloquently? Throw us a bone here. Chug some screech or kiss a cod or something.

Glad things have turned around on the Rock. BC's been doing well enough... real estate prices are still ridiculous in Vancouver. Time to head east, perhaps.


With the economic boom here, real estate prices have gone through the roof. Not quite as bad as Victoria or Vancouver (my sister teaches at U-Vic, and her and my brother-in-law who's from BC, live in Victoria), but you guys have the climate edge

The nickname for this place is aptly fitting. Even though both our provinces border the oceans, yours is one of tropical forests, diverse wildlife, and nice weather year round; ours right at home on the brutal North Atlantic it sits on: more cloud, fog, rain, and wind than any other province in Canada (and one of the few places where you can routinely experience four seasons in one day).

I like B.C. a lot; fortunately there is also no shortage of work there in the addictions line of work I do either, as one day I may go West for the nicer climate, proximity to family, and awesome skiing. Maybe its a coastal thing, but I find I'm most at home when I can smell the salt in the air and I miss the ocean when I'm away from it for too long.

(sorry for off-topic stuff to the mods etc)

-Spyder

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Plus some of them do not even allow us into their auto market so I don't see how they should get subsidies.


THANK YOU!!

(The staunch defenders on here must ALL be heavily/completely? vested in these same foreign corporations.

)

 

[tonycarguy]

Haha, this is like someone working for a company that makes Windows-based software, and a reporter shows up with a Macbook and the reporter gets kicked out. Only the UAW does things this absurd.

But I thought this UAW practice was well-known? If you work at a UAW plant you cannot own a non-UAW car let alone drive one to work.

 

[GMBoy]

At my GM plant all non-GM vehicles have designated parking in the last rows on the lot. Only GM cars can park in the closest spots. But even in the back of the lot, it's not a long walk so no big deal.

 

[dhise]

When my buddy moved back to Michigan in the 90's he got a job at a Chrysler assembly plant and he was driving one of the older, really horrible hyundai's. He was razzed a bit for his vehicle choice but survived the experience.

10-15 years earlier and it probably would have been an uglier scene.

 

[Kestas]

What about the guy who gets a job at a UAW facility? Does he have to part with his old car and get a "proper" vehicle for his first day at work?

I got a job at Chrysler back in the early 80s. I drove my Ford Torino for a couple of years before I replaced it with a Chrysler. The guys understood an respected the fact that the Torino was bought by my dad who worked at Ford, with company discount, and passed it down to me, but I wasn't yet finished consuming the vehicle.

Back then the employee incentives were too good to pass up, so it made terrible sense to buy a competitor's product when buying new.

 

[mikered30]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
At my GM plant all non-GM vehicles have designated parking in the last rows on the lot. Only GM cars can park in the closest spots. But even in the back of the lot, it's not a long walk so no big deal.


What happens if someone violates the rule? Do they get towed?

 

[dhise]

Originally Posted By: mikered30
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
At my GM plant all non-GM vehicles have designated parking in the last rows on the lot. Only GM cars can park in the closest spots. But even in the back of the lot, it's not a long walk so no big deal.


What happens if someone violates the rule? Do they get towed?


you might have a flat tire or two when you leave. Maybe a few new scratches in your paint. I think you would be wanting to invite trouble to make such a move.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: dhise
you might have a flat tire or two when you leave. Maybe a few new scratches in your paint. I think you would be wanting to invite trouble to make such a move.

Very upright and moral people there. /sarcasm off/
More like spoiled brats that had not gotten enough spanking as kids and were not taught to respect private property.

 

[dhise]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: dhise
you might have a flat tire or two when you leave. Maybe a few new scratches in your paint. I think you would be wanting to invite trouble to make such a move.

Very upright and moral people there. /sarcasm off/
More like spoiled brats that had not gotten enough spanking as kids and were not taught to respect private property.



the plants employ a large number of people so there are bound to be a few that live up to the negative union stereotype.

 

[PurplePride]

When I used to work for Hughes Electronics (part of Hughes Aircraft) the CEO flew in and landed on the roof of one of the buildings. Apparently, he got a view of the parking lots. One or two days later, we all got a scathing letter complaining about the foreign cars parked there. It was in the mid-late 90's, and GM frankly was making ***t cars. We all had a good laugh over it. What arrogance. How about making something worth buying and then offering your employees a discount worth mentioning. I'm happy to see a new CEO and good products coming from "US" companies, but really, this kind of thing just makes me laugh, or cry now.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: PurplePride
I'm happy to see a new CEO and good products coming from "US" companies, but really, this kind of thing just makes me laugh, or cry now.

Ditto and ditto.