Good read on 0w20 from Honda

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
As far as MB 229.5 oils available in North America, from that list, these are the ones I know we have, or can get:

-Mercedes-Benz PKW-Synthetic Motorenöl MB 229.5
-Premium Synthetik Motorenöl
-smart Motoröl 5W-30
-Castrol EDGE 0W-30 A3/B4
-Chevron Havoline Synthetic Motor Oil
-EVOLUTION OEM Series I 5W-30
-EVOLUTION OEM Series I 5W-40
-Mobil 1 0W-40
-Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 0W-40
-Mobil SHC Formula M 5W-30
-Pennzoil Platinum European Formula
-Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 Full Synthetic
-Q European Engine Ultra
-Q Horsepower Full Synthetic
-SynPower HST
-SynPower SAE 5W-30 motor oil
-Texaco Havoline Synthetic

Not sure on how readily available the MOTUL products are, so I didn't include them in the list.


Yes and the only economical ones are M1 0w40 and GC 0w30 when they are $5 a quart on sale.

I've never seen anything else come close to that price or ever seen it in a store.


We have the other Mobil grades up here, I can get them from our local Chrysler dealer for the same price as the 0w40 FWIW.

The problem is that they are all synthetic, so they are all expensive. I never said they were cheap, just available

I've seen the Quaker State and Valvoline oils around as well. But again, they are expensive.

I'm curious how much the smart or Mercedes branded oils is from the dealer. I know the LL-01 5w30 is actually pretty cheap from BMW.

You have to consider though, if these oils are run using the factory OLM, they actually aren't all that expensive "in use" because of how far you are supposed to run them. Changing them out early though, well, yeah, it would feel like a big financial hit compared to "regular" oil.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
And before you say "how many are available in North America", well, how many 5w20 and 0w20 oils meeting Ford's specs are available in Germany?

Exactly.


EXACTLY!!!!!!!

This is the point I was waiting for someone to make.

The 20 weight oils aren't available in Europe. German cars use 30 or 40 weight oils. 30 weight oil is not detrimental in a car spec'd for 20 weight.

So why would US companies antagonize their customers, their dealer networks with a change they don't want.

It doesn't automatically mean it's better than 20 weight for the engines that have been tested in the US for 20 weight. It's because the switching cost is not worth it for the manufacturer, the dealer, the distribution network when the customer doesn't want it.

The reason I posted the Ford Q&A was to show what effort it took to make the switch. That effort was worth it because of the CAFE incentives.

But Ford also had an incentive to come up with an oil spec that was suitable. And they did and have proven to have succeeded because nothing adverse has happened in more than one decade of use.

 

[Trav]

I said it looks like they are running away from it there and i still think that.
If it was the preferred weight last year and now its not instead now a heavy 30w is preferred how else do you want to see it.

If ford spec'd 5w30 last year and this year spec's 0w20 and left the 5w30 as just an alternative wouldn't you say they were running away from it?
Come on now, of course you would because they are going thinner, thats progress and inevitable to many here.
Taking a step backwards is heresy.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: JOD
While they may not be saying "one size fits all" with respect to kinematic viscosity, the hths requirements of the various certifications certainly do limit choice of oil viscosity. As far as BMW, all of the approved oils are in the 3.5-3.8 range, which is a similar range to Ford's 2.6-2.8 (implicit in the API specs). So, in essence they do also seem to by saying "one size fits all"; it's just that all of Ford's sizes happen to fit under the 20W umbrella, and BMW's span over 2 different ranges (30W and 40W). The requirements are just as rigid.

Which, of course, begs another question: why doesn't BMW offer its North American customers other options which may be more suitable for their driving conditions, e.g. no extended high-speed driving. Obviously the spec'd oil has to be suitable for driving on the autobahn. Why should a customer in NA have to have the same headroom?


Thanks JOD for explaining it far better than I've done.

This is the point I was making.

The argument was about having choice in what viscosity one can run depending on how much headroom they feel they need.

As JOD has pointed out with the HTHSV numbers, the range of choice is about the same (2.6-2.8 vs 3.5-3.8).

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I said it looks like they are running away from it there and i still think that.
If it was the preferred weight last year and now its not instead now a heavy 30w is preferred how else do you want to see it.

If ford spec'd 5w30 last year and this year spec's 0w20 and left the 5w30 as just an alternative wouldn't you say they were running away from it?
Come on now, of course you would because they are going thinner, thats progress and inevitable to many here.
Taking a step backwards is heresy.


Now you are saying a "heavy" 30 weight is prefered.

Sounds like CATERHAM speak!

What's the HTHSV of the heavy 30 weight they prefer?

You said that the prefered alternative ahead of 0w20 was GC 0w30, not that the prefered oil was GC 0w30.

Isn't the prefered oil now a regular 30 weight?

And don't forget, this is all from the Mobil website, without any context from Toyota.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
You said that the prefered alternative ahead of 0w20 was GC 0w30, not that the prefered oil was GC 0w30.


Do you just make this stuff up to start trouble or what?

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: Trav
If it was the preferred weight last year and now its not instead now a heavy 30w is preferred how else do you want to see it.


Originally Posted By: Trav
You are always doing this. A thick 20 is like a 30w, a thin 30w is like as a thick 20w, thin 40's, thick 30's on and on.
You make people crazy with this stuff.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Do you just make this stuff up to start trouble or what?


I went to the Toyota Germany site but had no chance of retrieving any Prius information directly from Toyota.

Some context on when to use the heavy 30 weight oil, the regular 30 weight oil, or the two alternative 20 weight oils, would be good context for your assertion that Toyota is running away from 20 weight oil.

As a native speaker, could you try and find that information in their online German manuals perhaps?

 

[JAG]

Food for thought and discussion: http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~jacksr7/SAE2002013355.pdf

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: Trav
If ford spec'd 5w30 last year and this year spec's 0w20 and left the 5w30 as just an alternative wouldn't you say they were running away from it?
Come on now, of course you would because they are going thinner, thats progress and inevitable to many here.
Taking a step backwards is heresy.


Not at all Trav, I wouldn't say they were running away from 30 weight oil. I run 30 weight oil in my Taurus.

I would say that I expect they had a valid reason for changing the recommendation and I hope they were right in whatever testing and analysis they did.

The scenario you give is in fact what they did after their testing. All owners would be justified in asking for a good explanation of why such a change was made, especially back spec'ing. And even when convinced that the change is ok, nobody would characterize it as running away from 30 weight oil. Factually speaking, it's just about getting a small fuel economy increase, with slightly better performance / less wear at start up temps and no material change in engine life.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I said it looks like they are running away from it there and i still think that.
If it was the preferred weight last year and now its not instead now a heavy 30w is preferred how else do you want to see it.


I'd like to see Toyota's explanation not just how Mobil match it up on their website.

If 0w20 and 5w20 had disappeared completely, then you would perhaps have a case.

But since it's on there as an alternative, presumably that information came from Toyota, and Toyota have a reason for still specifying it, even as an alternative.

And Toyota probably have a reason for allowing a light 30 weight and a heavy 30 weight.

 

[hr1940]

I have removed the lock because it contains some very good information. antiqueshell ask if there was anyway it could be reopened. As long as we respect each other it can remain open.

Helen

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock

From what I saw on Castrol's Australia website, they have developed a 5w20 with Ford, Jaguar and Land Rover. But generally the oils there are not SN or even SM. My supposition is that there is more a market acceptance / price issue here.


Say what ?

where on Earth did you make that up from ?

You accuse others of being scant with the facts, leaving out important verbage next to a table, then blatently post made up "facts".

Nice work

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
EXACTLY!!!!!!!

This is the point I was waiting for someone to make.

The 20 weight oils aren't available in Europe. German cars use 30 or 40 weight oils. 30 weight oil is not detrimental in a car spec'd for 20 weight.


Having spent a lot of time on the Castrol Oz website, you would have seen that there are heaps of xW-20s on offer in Australia from Castrol.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
EXACTLY!!!!!!!

This is the point I was waiting for someone to make.

The 20 weight oils aren't available in Europe. German cars use 30 or 40 weight oils. 30 weight oil is not detrimental in a car spec'd for 20 weight.


Having spent a lot of time on the Castrol Oz website, you would have seen that there are heaps of xW-20s on offer in Australia from Castrol.


So why would a 30 or a 40 grade oil be detrimental in a car spec'd for a 20 grade oil in the USA if the conditions warrant its use? They didn't grenade in the past when people had a choice, and I'm pretty sure Shannow will back me up that they aren't blowing up in OZ either.

I hope some of our German friends weigh in because IIRC 20 grade oil is available in Germany for hybrid cars and vehicles not used on the Autobahn. But if I'm wrong I can handle being corrected, by someone with facts. Also if it is not available in Germany there must be a good reason, other than it not being available. Germany is no third world nation so shipping them 20 grade oil surely isn't a problem if there is a need or mfg recommendation for using it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
EXACTLY!!!!!!!

This is the point I was waiting for someone to make.

The 20 weight oils aren't available in Europe. German cars use 30 or 40 weight oils. 30 weight oil is not detrimental in a car spec'd for 20 weight.


Having spent a lot of time on the Castrol Oz website, you would have seen that there are heaps of xW-20s on offer in Australia from Castrol.


So why would a 30 or a 40 grade oil be detrimental in a car spec'd for a 20 grade oil in the USA if the conditions warrant its use? They didn't grenade in the past when people had a choice, and I'm pretty sure Shannow will back me up that they aren't blowing up in OZ either.

I hope some of our German friends weigh in because IIRC 20 grade oil is available in Germany for hybrid cars and vehicles not used on the Autobahn. But if I'm wrong I can handle being corrected, by someone with facts. Also if it is not available in Germany there must be a good reason, other than it not being available. Germany is no third world nation so shipping them 20 grade oil surely isn't a problem if there is a need or mfg recommendation for using it.



Well here's a member from England saying Honda specs anything from 0W20 to 10W40 in 2007 over there. The link.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2818777#Post2818777

Originally Posted By: bigjl
Wow. Won't advise anybody with a Honda that takes 0w20 to use the synth blend Honda oil.

A mate has one such vehicle. But the Honda dealer is believed to have used 5w30 Full synth in it with 12 month 12k mile interval. The car has 48k and is a April/May 2007 reg.
So it has run on time rather than miles.

Viscosities in the handbook range from 0w20 right up to 10w40 if younger somewhere warm.

Or is this engine and the OP's usage hard on the oil?

 

[Trav]

Quote:
The 20 weight oils aren't available in Europe.
They are readily availabe.

 

[Hounds]

I no longer have the link (or, if I do, it would take me forever to hunt it up), but in response to another marathon thread regarding the virtues and vices of 0W-20 and Honda k-series motors, months ago I exchanged e-mail with the woman tasked to respond to maintenance inquires posed to www.Honda.co.UK, Honda's manufacturing facility in Swindon, England. I simply asked her what Honda of Great Britain uses as the factory fill (FF). She advised the FF for Accords and CR-Vs was 5W-30 weight oil. That, she added, was also the weight oil Honda of GB recommended for regular maintenance.

 

[Trav]

No need to ship the 20w Frank. Germany is one of Europe's largest refiners of oil.
The reason 20w is allowed in the hybrids as an alternative is simple.

If the car is driven in the city mostly it is in hybrid mode most, engine off running on the battery. Lot of on/off cycles,
20w is fine.
On the other hand if you drive the hybrid mostly on secondary roads and highways one of the 30w is preferred. You make the choice as you know how you drive the car most.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: hr1940
I have removed the lock because it contains some very good information. antiqueshell ask if there was anyway it could be reopened. As long as we respect each other it can remain open.

Helen

Thank you. This is a very informative thread.