GM Fell Behind Toyota in 2008

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy


#2 - As expected, this thread instantly became a Detroit bashing thread.


You and I are both not surprised by this... As per our previous conversation concerning this topic.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't know about setting woods on fire. But it appears more Toyotas sell on the merits of the car compared to GM.


That is due more to "perceived" quality rather than a quantifiable superiority in product.


Yes and no, it seems Lexus, Honda, Acura and Toyota keep appearing in the top 10 of the quality surveys in greater numbers than GM brands.

Toyota compares to Chevrolet for the most part, and Lexus and Acura with Cadillac. So from both a perception point of view and from quantifiable standings, GM comes in BEHIND Toyota and Honda.

But let's assume that what you say is true, that it's ONLY a perception problem. Who created that perception? Did Toyota and Honda go out and break all those 70's, 80's and to some extent 90's GM products?

Nope!

So the negative perception is a legitimate cost of how GM did business in the past.

As others are saying, the most difficult customer for any business to get is one they lost.

You may not like it, but that is business truth.

GM was WAAAAAY out in front, and LOST those customers. It will be very difficult for them to get them back.
Quote:


The truth is, 2007 and newer GM models are just as good as (if not better than) comparable Toyota models. The 2008 Malibu is a better car than the 2007 Camry for example, a similar case could be made for the Silverado and Tundra and Acadia/Outlook/Enclave/Traverse and the Highlander.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Ok-

#1 - Toyota beat GM in sales. Ok, but that is just one race. You will see GM win one year and Toyota the next. Just because Toyota wins this year doesn't mean anything except that they are GM's biggest competitor and that's good. Doesn't mean they are better or that GM is dead. 600k units is not much in the grand scheme of things.

#2 - As expected, this thread instantly became a Detroit bashing thread.


It seems to also be a thread bashing those who choose Honda's, Toyota's and other products. The terms fanboy and saying that quality is "only" perceived are clearly bashing folks who choose such cars.

Like I've said before, I WANT the domestic automakers to do well. But like others, I've been burned by GM, and will think long and hard before I go down that road again.

I don't maintain my 3 Toyota's (one's a GM badged Corolla, the Geo Prizm) any differently than the GM's I started driving in 1980, so why only one repair EVER in my 200K mile Camry and only a handful on my 232K mile Prizm?

My 1966 Nova kept me with GM for a long time, because of the favorable perception I had since it endured the abuse of a 16 year old male and kept going.

But I really do hope GM does well. But the kind of cars I drive, right now, the Corolla is the best answer. When I look at what GM is offering, there is the Aveo and the Cobalt. Personally, I drove a Cobalt at the GM test drive event here a few years ago. (You had to drive several other cars before you could take out the Corvette) and it was just chinzy. It oozed with cheap. I preferred sticking with my 1994 Geo Prizm with power nothing save the moon roof over the plastic fantastic of that car.

The local dealers are "blowing out" Cobalts at $12K to move the metal. I'd still rather pay $4K-6K more for a new Corolla with the 1.8L engine and a stick.

I walked the local Chevy dealer's lot last summer looking at what they had and there were NO manual transmission Cobalt's or other sedans.

The Toyota dealer had both Corollas and the ugly Yaris with a stick.

Don't worry, my sister is still a GM customer. She is one her 2nd Tahoe now, and will probably need another one in a few years.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't know about setting woods on fire. But it appears more Toyotas sell on the merits of the car compared to GM.


That is due more to "perceived" quality rather than a quantifiable superiority in product.

The truth is, 2007 and newer GM models are just as good as (if not better than) comparable Toyota models. The 2008 Malibu is a better car than the 2007 Camry for example, a similar case could be made for the Silverado and Tundra and Acadia/Outlook/Enclave/Traverse and the Highlander.



Not as far as I am concerned. GM quality on the last 2 $50k+ SUV's I bought was absolutely horrible. AND they wouldn't stand behind them. So I am en ex-GM customer and a 100% Toyota customer now. I won't be going back to GM. I have had enough.

BTW, I am not bashing GM. I am just very very disappointed that the company my Father worked at for 40 years is managed so poorly. I have owned more than 20 GM vehicles in my life and the ones they build now are the worst ever. I am worn out thinking about it.

 

[Amkeer]

Just purchased a 2008 Toyota Tundra in December 2008. Lets cover the reasons to purchase a vehicle first:

1. Needed to replace a 14 year old daily driver.

2. Financing terms were low.

3. Buy low formula rules now since more sellers than buyers. (buy low)

4. Taking advantage of rebates and incentives. We calculated a purchase is necessary within a 18-24 month period, and based on those calculations, the investment decision was better earlier rather than later. We aggressively pursue opportunities at the appropriate time. Purchase was made.

Lets cover the choice of brands considered:

1. GM

2. Toyota

3. Ford

When looking at the numbers above, that is how my choices went in the order of first to last. GM was quickly removed from the list since we really did not care for the "squareness", or lines, and styling of the truck. Had GM not changed the styling there is a 90% chance we would have purchased it. Ford was removed since we were able to witness the reliability issues with family members vehicles. We believe Ford will continue to build one of the best trucks available, however we buy for long term, keeping our vehicles on average greater than 10 years. Based on that calculation as well as "others" problems we had to focus on the Toyota Tundra.

Why we chose Toyota Tundra:

1. Reliability. Since owning the Toyota brands since 1985 we have had excellent service from their vehicles. Every mass produced vehicle has its issues and Toyota is not exempt from this. Through the years we have been able to analyze problems with different brands, and we believe based on that, Toyota still has fewer problems.

2. Styling, fit and finish. We prefer the look of the Tundra to other vehicles. We also liked the Ford F250, and Super Duty Series trucks, however that truck would have been a considerable cost difference from the Tundra.

3. Lifetime Warranty. Along with the 6-60 we were given a Lifetime Warranty on powertrain.

There are other reasons we chose one over the other, but we will not bore you with the details. There is no such thing as a perfect vehicle. Everyone will have there different wants and needs. We recommend you choose the vehicle that fits that formula. We believe that if you are contemplating a purchase "of any vehicle" there is no better time to buy than now.

 

[Ed_T]

Originally Posted By: H2GURU
Way too many loyal GM buyers have been BURNED too many times. How about simple safety related items like BRAKE LINES that used to last 20 years but now ROT THROUGH in 3 or 4 years?? GIVE us a break... GM deserves their fate, a once fine company ruined by bad management. There's plenty of good reasons why Toyota is #1 and they've earned it via hard work! My hard earned dollars are going to companies that deserve it.


Well said. I've had three instances of brake line rot. Two on Chevrolet, one on Ford.

The brake lines on our 03 4Runner look fine at 130,000 salty miles.

One Chevy popped at about 90k, the other at about the same mileage, as well as the Ford truck. I guess the planned obsolence teams had alot of say in things.

Live and learn. I feel as though the "domestics" chased us away, with their [censored], cheap components. Steering racks and radiators popping on well-maintained cars - give me a break.

The frequency of repair on our Toy's is but a slim fraction of the [censored] we consistenly went through with the big three's products. No more.

I don't care how much "better" their products may in fact be. They'll never get us back.

 

[cousincletus]

I got burned on a Ford Ranger pickup (1987, 2.3 5-speed) that I bought new, but that didn't run me off from domestic brands. I had lots of problems with that truck. Although I haven't owned another Ford, I've had good service from my GM and Chrysler products. I realize that part of our economy depends on the auto industry, and without it we will all suffer. I have owned American cars since 1982, and had only the Ranger give me unnecessary problems. Personally, having worked in the industry, I couldn't with a clear conscience buy an import. Maybe there are some here that just don't realize the importance of our industry. As far as imports being more rust resistant, I just don't believe that. You never see an old import on the road up north w/o big rust holes all over it. But anyway, buy what you want. We're all in this country together, and the me first attitude isn't the best way to live your life. OK, enough of the guilt trip, but there are lots of folks here who will agree with me on this. I'll admit there are models that you should avoid (Trailblazer comes to mind), but I have an Impala that I researched before I bought, and it has been a completely trouble free car. There are some domestics out there that can hold their own with the best of the imports. And when you compare price, then it's no comparison. Also research parts prices, availability of parts before you buy.

 

[yeti]

gmboy -- "as expected, this thread instantly became a detroit bashing thread". what do you expect when the big 3 pays it's line workers $150,000./ year ?

 

[cousincletus]

That's not true. Its line workers start at 14 and some change per hour.

 

[yeti]

cousincletus -- i was being sarcastic. a few weeks back, when all the big 3 bashing started, a poster claimed this, and stated it as "fact", as he had family/friends in michigan that verified this. at $28./hour -- well, do the math.the recent hires start at the low wage scale. i guess that they "only" earn about $100,000./ year. gmboy can verify this. we all had a good laugh, as there are actually people gullible enough to believe it.

 

[cousincletus]

OK. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just see so much domestic bashing nonsense here. It's almost like they want to see their own industries fail.

 

[StevieC]

Sorry I would have been here earlier to add my comments but my Neon broke down on the way, then I fixed it then it blew a head gasket, fixed that, then it started leaking oil, fixed that then the shocks went and the ignition switch... Here now... What did I miss?

Think I will bring my Hyundai next time...

 

[opus1]

Not directing this at anyone in particular here, but it's amazing how someone "burned" by GM in the 70's or 80's will never give them another chance.

Remember the first Hyundai's? [censored] with a capital "C".

How many 70's and 80's Toyotas and Hondas are still running around, especially where salt is used on the roads? I seem to recall a massive rust problem, especially with Honda's from that era.

But "we" forgive and forget as long as it's not Detroit, apparently.

GM isn't building Vega's and Citation's anymore. And I've seen ratings where Ford is equal to Toyota in quality now. Oh, and there's that little bit about the upcoming Fusion Hybrid pretty much mopping the floor with the Camry Hybrid as far as economy goes -- and did it with in-house developed technology (i.e., they didn't buy from Toyota).

Just my :2cents:

 

[StevieC]

Not directing this at you either... My Neon is a '95. I have a neighbor that just bought a Cobalt that has been nothing but a pile of S*** with constant trips to the dealer. He has a 2000 Cavalier that has fallen apart and spends more time being repaired than on the road and it only has 100,000KM on it (60,000 miles) and is well cared for and is of no fault of his. Then you have the Chrysler Mini-Van that my uncle bought 40,000 ago (2006) and it too is a pile of S*** and the air-conditioning is already gone. I have a Hyundai Santa Fe 2.7 Litre V6 that's an '06 and it has over 150,000KM on it and it runs like a clock and I have had 0 problems or visits to the dealer... Pretty sure there are a lot of experiences like this that are driving people to other dealerships... I mean my mom bought a Kia under my dads advice (retiree of Chrysler) because he doesn't like the product line-up's durability! That should say something right there!

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Why we chose Toyota Tundra:

1. Reliability. Since owning the Toyota brands since 1985 we have had excellent service from their vehicles. Every mass produced vehicle has its issues and Toyota is not exempt from this. Through the years we have been able to analyze problems with different brands, and we believe based on that, Toyota still has fewer problems.


Thank you for proving my point. You attribute quality to the Tundra based on an unquantifiable perception.

Fact is, survey after survey puts the 2007-up Tundra at the BOTTOM of the full-size pickup pack. By the numbers, the Tundra has proven to be less reliable than the Dodge Ram, much less the Chevy Silverado or Ford F-150.

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Why we chose Toyota Tundra:

1. Reliability. Since owning the Toyota brands since 1985 we have had excellent service from their vehicles. Every mass produced vehicle has its issues and Toyota is not exempt from this. Through the years we have been able to analyze problems with different brands, and we believe based on that, Toyota still has fewer problems.


Thank you for proving my point. You attribute quality to the Tundra based on an unquantifiable perception.

Fact is, survey after survey puts the 2007-up Tundra at the BOTTOM of the full-size pickup pack. By the numbers, the Tundra has proven to be less reliable than the Dodge Ram, much less the Chevy Silverado or Ford F-150.


He also said he was also buying the Tundra for its styling. I know this is subjective but that's about the ugliest truck I have ever seen. I had a Dodge Ram 1500 (2001) and it was a very reliable truck. I would put it up against a brand new Toyota for quality. I now have a Chevy Colorado. We'll see how it holds up, since it's different from the S-10s that I had in the past. I looked at the Tacoma (not that I would really buy one haha) and the Colorado gives you MUCH more for the money, looks a lot better, and was more comfortable to drive. Also AMERICAN MADE!!! from a USA MANUFACTURER. GO USA!!!

 

[javacontour]

Quantifiable Numbers:

http://www.automotive.com/auto-news/02/26800/index.html

Quote:

Among 10-year-old vehicles, owners of Japanese cars report the fewest problems overall. Toyota, Honda, and Subaru lead the way with an average of 65, 89, and 90 problems per 100 vehicles reported, respectively. The average of all 10-year-old vehicles is 132 problems per 100 vehicles.

Of the domestic 10-year-old vehicles, those from Ford (including Lincoln and Mercury) remain most reliable, at about 120 problems per 100 vehicles. Ten-year-old vehicles from GM and Chrysler are nearly neck and neck with about 160 problems per 100 vehicles. Volkswagen (including Audi) owners reported about 175 problems per 100 vehicles, by far worse than any other brand.


Looking at this, with a 10 year old Toyota you will have 1/2 the problems of a 10 year old Ford or 1/3rd of the problems of a 10 year old GM on average.

Some may have more, some may have less.

That's the problem, many are still driving their 10+ year old Toyota's and Honda's because they don't have as many repairs as their domestic contemporaries.

There is no way to know how today's cars will do, the 2009's until that 10 years is up. So folks who've experienced the Ford's and GM's look at those numbers by Honda and Toyota and try it out.

That's all that Honda and Toyota need to do, to be good enoug that folks who are burned on the GM or Ford will give them a try. Odds are they'll win another customer.

It takes two things for this to happen. First, folks have to become disenchanted with their GM's and Ford's. It appears that is more probable than folks becoming disenchanted with their Honda's and Toyota's. Not saying it doesn't happen, it does. But the question is does it happen at the same rate as with the domestic car makers? It appears the answer to that question is no.

The second thing that has to happen is for Honda and Toyota to have vehicles that folks will migrate to if they've become disenchanted with their GM and Ford. Looking at Camry, Corolla, Civic and Accord sales figures, it seems that is the case.

That is NOT the case in the truck market where the Domestic 3 seem to have a more appealing product.

So all is not lost for Detroit. However, if one thinks that companies like Toyota and Nissan will not figure out how to build a truck folks want to buy, they don't remember their history when folks underestimated Japan's ability to build cars people in the US would buy.

One can try to blame the customer all they want with blame-shifting tactics such as calling them fanboy's, saying the quality is just a perception, etc. None of that adds any real sales or any real dollars to the bottom lines of the Domestic 3.

 

[H2GURU]

Toyota rocks... plain and simple. My job involves me being at work for long stretches and the last thing I need to think about is reliabilty of my personal vehicle after 16 hours. Yes, of course there's been a few glitches (fualty dies producing bad ball-joint surfaces and JUNK steel made right here in the USA FOR THE FRAMES). My down time for my vehicles is about 95% less than when I had GM?? So from my experience, if you want to be on a first name basis with your service advisor, then by all means shop at your domestic dealer, but if your FREE time is important to you then do look at other manufacturers as this is an important choice for you! For me the VALUE choice is clear and I wouldn't buy a domestic if it was 50% cheaper because in the long run they always make it back with service... NO THANKS, been there and not doing that anymore!

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I looked at the Tacoma (not that I would really buy one haha) and the Colorado gives you MUCH more for the money, looks a lot better, and was more comfortable to drive. Also AMERICAN MADE!!! from a USA MANUFACTURER. GO USA!!!

Define "much more."

 

[StevieC]

Also last I checked the Toyota Tundra is made in a plant in TEXAS so it's just as "American Made" as the other stuff...