Fram X2 oil filter

gerhardb · May 12, 2004

The anti-drain back valve seems to work quite well.

When I change the oil after letting the car sit for some hours there is PENTLY of oil in that filter.

The material the ADBV is made out of is high temp silicone.

The SuperTech filters I've been disassembling are not a filter for use in a Honda application. The clicker stype by-pass valve does not function well enough to provide the required higher levels of oil pressure while engauged in VTEC (8000RPMs)

SuperTech filter ST2808... Link

SuperTech ST3593A... Link

Example of the clicker style by-pass valve in action... Link

So far as I can tell via first hand inspection... the ADBV on the WalMart filters is just about the same in thickness and so on.

[ May 12, 2004, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: gerhardb ]

T-Keith · May 12, 2004

The Fram and Supertech ADBV are completely different in design, construction and thickness. The Fram simply sits against the endcap and base plate. The Champion(ST) fits around the endcap and part of the base plate, giving it support and keeping the element centered. It's also noticably thicker than the Fram's.

I've seen the Fram ADBVs fail first hand. The oil simply pushes in the thin valve, since it has no inner support.

I'm not sure how you've determined that the "clicker" style bypass does not work. The link you gave shows the operation, but I'm not sure what the problem is. It looks like a leaf spring sealing metal to metal. Doesn't sound any worse than a coil spring sealing plastic to plastic. Although metal would be easier to hold tolerance on.

-T

ZiTS · May 12, 2004

T-Keith,

Please give the specifics of your experience with the FRAM ADBV failure. Would it be safe to assume that this was with a regular FRAM filter (black, nitrile ADBV) and not the X2 (orange, silicone ADBV)? Nitrile is known to breakdown over time, which is why many filters use silicone. How do you know the failure wasn't caused by the ADBV being nitrile? I admit, the FRAM ADBV's do feel thinner than other ADBV's, but that's all I'll agree with you on. I certainly don't have the proof to show this matters or not. It seems to me that the only way an ADBV would be "pushed in" like you're eluding to would be by oil going into the filter. How can this be a bad thing? It is very hard to believe oil pressure alone was able to push the ADBV through the tiny holes in the endcap outwards, unless it had broken down. This may have been due to the fact the ADBV was nitrile. Again, the X2 uses silicone.

As far as the ADBV not fitting around the endcap like the Champion design, the FRAM design has the ADBV sitting down into the center tube. Again, a different design, but hardly one that means it can't work. I see no way the ADBV could come loose and not stay where it is supposed to.

FRAM does use plastic for their bypass valve design. But it is mated into a metal leaf spring. Seems to me that plastic-metal could actually seal better than metal-metal. Again, a different design, but not necessarily junk.

Look, I'm not trying to single you out, but you obviously have it in for FRAM as a whole, which can be seen from negative comments you've made in the Air Filter section as well. Anytime someone says something positive about FRAM, you jump right back with a negative comment to counter. You don't like FRAM, and that is your choice. I'm not saying you haven't had bad experiences with FRAM in the past, nor am I saying they are the end-all-be-all in filter technology. However, we are talking solely of the X2 in this Topic, and many of your comments just don't seem to hold up to that point.

Regards,

[ May 12, 2004, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: ZiTS ]

ZR2RANDO · May 12, 2004

Just an additional Fram comment,
Standard Fram filters (TG and EG) always were empty when I took them off of my old truck (mounted about 45 deg with holes down). I never thought anything of it at the time. I have since learned how oil filters are designed and how the componants are supposed to work, and I have cut up several to compare construction,,,,I also used to have plenty of valve train rattle in that truck until the oil really warmed up. I learned about Frams, changed brands of filters, and now the noise is gone and the filters (any other brand) have more oil in them when they get removed.
X2 filters may be better than the older designs (better be for $10!)....but I still will not use them. There are other filters intended for extended drain applications that I would use if I needed them ( I don't do extended drains so it doesn't matter in my case regardless).
Fram has built a reputation (mostly marketing)over the years, some folks have seen the insides and others have just seen the marketing/advertising.
The X2 filters may do the intended job adequately enough, but folks that have seen the performance of the older design for all these years will probably give their money to someone else.

69 Riv GS · May 12, 2004

quote:

Nitrile is known to breakdown over time

OFF TOPIC:
I've never had a ADBV fail because of its' material, poor design yes. Nitrile is rated for 250F & 300 intermittent. It does eventually become brittle in valve stem applications; thats after a much longer time, at higher temps than an oil filter could ever be subjected to.

T-Keith · May 12, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by ZiTS:
T-Keith,

Please give the specifics of your experience with the FRAM ADBV failure. Would it be safe to assume that this was with a regular FRAM filter (black, nitrile ADBV) and not the X2 (orange, silicone ADBV)? Nitrile is known to breakdown over time, which is why many filters use silicone. How do you know the failure wasn't caused by the ADBV being nitrile? I admit, the FRAM ADBV's do feel thinner than other ADBV's, but that's all I'll agree with you on. I certainly don't have the proof to show this matters or not. It seems to me that the only way an ADBV would be "pushed in" like you're eluding to would be by oil going into the filter. How can this be a bad thing? It is very hard to believe oil pressure alone was able to push the ADBV through the tiny holes in the endcap outwards, unless it had broken down. This may have been due to the fact the ADBV was nitrile. Again, the X2 uses silicone.

As far as the ADBV not fitting around the endcap like the Champion design, the FRAM design has the ADBV sitting down into the center tube. Again, a different design, but hardly one that means it can't work. I see no way the ADBV could come loose and not stay where it is supposed to.

FRAM does use plastic for their bypass valve design. But it is mated into a metal leaf spring. Seems to me that plastic-metal could actually seal better than metal-metal. Again, a different design, but not necessarily junk.

Look, I'm not trying to single you out, but you obviously have it in for FRAM as a whole, which can be seen from negative comments you've made in the Air Filter section as well. Anytime someone says something positive about FRAM, you jump right back with a negative comment to counter. You don't like FRAM, and that is your choice. I'm not saying you haven't had bad experiences with FRAM in the past, nor am I saying they are the end-all-be-all in filter technology. However, we are talking solely of the X2 in this Topic, and many of your comments just don't seem to hold up to that point.

Regards,

Unfortunately my site is down right now. On my filter site, I have a picture of a Fram with an ADBV failure. I've mentioned it here before. Yes it was a black nitrile valve, but that does not mean it has no relevance here. The design is the same and that is the problem. With no inner support, how is a thin piece of rubber going to withstand 50+ psi of oil pressure? I don't know how I can explain it more, but the picture shows the failure. Since other filter designs are reinforced either by metal(champion, purolator, wix) or a double layer of thick rubber(Delphi). The reason you can see this on the nitrile ADBV and will never see it on the silicone one is simple. After the engine is turned off, the valve will want to pop back into place. After tearing apart a used filter, you'd never no that your oil was bypassing your filter element. However, a nitrile ADBV will tend to harden over time, in this case hardening with part pushed in, revealing the ADBV problem. The silicone, won't harden, instead always popping back into place. I see no reason to think that the silicone valve won't behave in the same way as the nitrile one, seeing as they are the same design. The only difference being you will never see it.

As for your last comment, I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't "have it in for Fram" as you say. I think if you've really read my posts, including the one above, I've always tried to post the facts. If someone posts something that I think is incorrect, I will try and correct with actual fact and observation. Perhaps people who post positive things about Fram tend to post opinions and incomplete information contradictory to my observations? You seem to be very defensive of Fram. Why do you go out of your way to defend them so much? Do you work for Fram or own stock in Honeywell?

But enough of the accusations, back to the original question. Ironduke4 I will have my website back up soon. I will look into buying a new X2 filter for testing.

-T

gerhardb · May 12, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by T-Keith:
The Fram and Supertech ADBV are completely different in design, construction and thickness. The Fram simply sits against the endcap and base plate. The Champion(ST) fits around the endcap and part of the base plate, giving it support and keeping the element centered. It's also noticably thicker than the Fram's.

I've seen the Fram ADBVs fail first hand. The oil simply pushes in the thin valve, since it has no inner support.

I'm not sure how you've determined that the "clicker" style bypass does not work. The link you gave shows the operation, but I'm not sure what the problem is. It looks like a leaf spring sealing metal to metal. Doesn't sound any worse than a coil spring sealing plastic to plastic. Although metal would be easier to hold tolerance on.

-T

I'll go home an take a micrometer to the two ADBV's from the SuperTech and the Fram x2.

(The x2 ADBV is not exactly the same as other Fram ABDV's.)

The SuperTech filters I've disassembled do not have a noticably superior design to the X2 series of filters.

The clicker style by-pass valve DOES NOT OPEN sufficiently for complete oil flow to continue.

In high RPM environments, such as Honda VTEC performance applications, the clicker style valve will not deiver the appripriate oil flow.

By-pass valves do no just work when the filter is clogged, but more specifically, when the pressure reaches a certain point.

The manufacturer of your vehicle has determined what oil pressure must be maintained under all engine conditions.

The convention coil spring type by-pass valve allows for consistant feed of oil to the engine, a sort of flow control that can be gradual or wide open.

The functioning of the clicker style valve is either open or closed.

However, you need to consider the surface area of the open valve. The vavles I've tested don't open at all... I suspect they are designed to open about .5mm... based on the amount of surface area that would be insufficent for proper oil flow at any RPM in a Honda 2.2L H22A series engine.

My suspicion is that it would be a problem in ANY engine.

In so far as oil by-passing the filter element... well, my UOA show that that's not a problem.

[ May 13, 2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: gerhardb ]

T-Keith · May 12, 2004

The bypass is designed to open when there is a preset pressure difference between the two sides of the filter element. Total oil pressure has nothing to do with it. The only two factors would be filter restriction and oil flow. The bypass pressure is specific to the filter, not the car.

I agree the total area of the bypass is not alot, do you have an approximations of the bypass area of any other filters? Also remember unless the filter is completely clogged, oil can still flow through the filter element. So your not relying on the bypass valve alone for all your oil flow. The purpose of the bypass is to reduce the resistance of the filter so it doesn't impeded flow. This can happen if the filter is clogged or at high oil flow. The clicker bypass isn't the best, but neither is any in-filter bypass. I'll take a precision machined bypass completely seperated from the filter any day.

-T

gerhardb · May 12, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:

The X2 filters may do the intended job adequately enough, but folks that have seen the performance of the older design for all these years will probably give their money to someone else.

The X2 filter DO the intended job quite well.

My UOA's show that they work as well at the Mobil 1, A/C Delco, Wix, AMSOIL, older Bosch filters.

ZR2RANDO · May 12, 2004

"The X2 filter DO the intended job quite well"

Maybe competition, and the fact that people are more aware of product details these days (thanks to the net and pages like these here at BITOG) has made Fram step up to the plate and make a product that works. I still don't like a bypass valve on the closed end of a filter though (on those models that have one) It is about time they came around. It is a $10 filter nevertheless, and there are other filters that also do the job for the same or less.
If you want to use them go ahead, I don't have much brand loyalty these days...I know things can change without much publicity. I just keep track of things and if something changes I check it out. If Fram ever makes it to the top of the oil filter food chain I'll give them a look, but they are not there at the moment.
I am not just Fram bashing here, just saying that there are better products available at the moment.

gerhardb · May 12, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by T-Keith:
The bypass is designed to open when there is a preset pressure difference between the two sides of the filter element. Total oil pressure has nothing to do with it. The only two factors would be filter restriction and oil flow. The bypass pressure is specific to the filter, not the car.

I agree the total area of the bypass is not alot, do you have an approximations of the bypass area of any other filters? Also remember unless the filter is completely clogged, oil can still flow through the filter element. So your not relying on the bypass valve alone for all your oil flow. The purpose of the bypass is to reduce the resistance of the filter so it doesn't impeded flow. This can happen if the filter is clogged or at high oil flow. The clicker bypass isn't the best, but neither is any in-filter bypass. I'll take a precision machined bypass completely seperated from the filter any day.

-T

Yeah, but that's a whole separate story... we're talking about the difference between the SuperTech filter and the Fram x2 filter (and ONLY the x2 filter - for anyone else thinking of interjecting).

The surface area is only one facet of the click-by-pass story... the other is that it doesn't appear to be opening in the two applications above.

So, the whole premise of the one individual above that a SuperTech is a better filter really doesn't seem to be true.

In fact: Fram has made a very good filter with the X2 series, and Champion Labs has screwed the pooch with their cheaper WalMart SuperTech brand.

You get what you pay for most of the time.

$1.00 a filter gets you a cheap filter.

$8.00 a filter gets you a heavy duty filter.

(In THIS comparison.)

Propflux01 · May 13, 2004

Seems to me if your filter is going into bypass mode you have more problems going on to be worried about a clicker vs spring type. Most all cars have a pump or block machined bypass valve anyhow, do they not?

ZR2RANDO · May 13, 2004

There is a pressure relief at the pump, then there is a bypass at the filter, some vehicles have a bypass built in to the filter mount- Chevrolets do that, not sure who all else does. Some mfgrs choose to use a bypass built into the filter itself...they assume that whoever makes a filter for that motor will make a good enough bypass, and you know what we say about making assumptions right..
My Nissan truck uses a filter with a internal bypass as an example of that method.
It would be normal for cold thick oil to bypass (like a morning crank, cold morning etc), and also high rpms can cause bypass as well, so yes- bypass is an action that happens in normal engines. It is a good thing to bypass as little as possible however.

T-Keith · May 13, 2004

All GM filters have the bypass in the engine(or filter mount). Most other engines do not. Although the new "cartridge" style filters are changing this. I only own GM cars, and I have no problems with Supertech filters. I would use them over the X2 reguardless of price.

-T

sbc350gearhead · May 13, 2004

Some GM engines use an oil filter with a bypass in the filter (saturns for one). Most do have contain the bypass in the block.

ZiTS · May 13, 2004

quote:

As for your last comment, I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't "have it in for Fram" as you say. I think if you've really read my posts, including the one above, I've always tried to post the facts. If someone posts something that I think is incorrect, I will try and correct with actual fact and observation. Perhaps people who post positive things about Fram tend to post opinions and incomplete information contradictory to my observations? You seem to be very defensive of Fram. Why do you go out of your way to defend them so much? Do you work for Fram or own stock in Honeywell?

I have absolutely NO affiliation with FRAM, Honeywell, or anyone/anything associated with oil filters. Sorry, nice try though. I understand that simply because someone tries to give a reasonable, objective opposing view of FRAM that that would mean they must be on the payroll.

I am doing the exact same thing that you stated you're doing, just from the other side of the coin. I've never accused you of being on the payroll for AC Delco, have I? And the reason I'm "very defensive", as you put it, has been stated by myself several times. I'm tired of reading people badmouthing FRAM as a whole with stories from the past, legends of 3rd party failurs, etc., that have nothing to do with the actual topic at hand. They seek merely to badmouth a company as a whole, which leads to rumors and conjectures.

I'm sure you can tell me why no one has a problem paying $10 for a Mobil 1 oil filter, even though it has been stated on here time and time again that Mobil 1 filters have less than perfect flow rates and really aren't anything extraordinary? Why is it that, even though Mobil Drive Clean dino oil is not acknowledged as being one of the "best" oils, Mobil 1 is one of the "best" oils? Same company, different product. {BTW: I love Exxon/Mobil, so I'm not trying to attack them. I'm simply using these products as an example.} However, it seems that because the FRAM Extra Guard may not be one of the "best" oil filters, NO filter (read: X2) from FRAM will ever be acceptable. You're calling that fair? Next time someone says something good about Mobil 1, I guess I'll need to jump right in and badmouth Mobil because of their Mobil Drive Clean.

The original poster inquired about the X2, and that is what I have been focusing on. I've bought them, I've used them, and I've cut them open. Until the time where proof is shown that the X2 does not do its' job, I will continue to stick by my belief that THE FRAM X2 IS A VERY GOOD, WELL BUILT OIL FILTER. Nothing more, nothing less.

quote:

I only own GM cars, and I have no problems with Supertech filters. I would use them over the X2 reguardless of price.

So, if the SuperTech and FRAM X2 were each being sold for $1, you would select the SuperTech, right? That's interesting, and I'll leave it at that.

[ May 13, 2004, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: ZiTS ]

gerhardb · May 13, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Tim H.:
Seems to me if your filter is going into bypass mode you have more problems going on to be worried about a clicker vs spring type. Most all cars have a pump or block machined bypass valve anyhow, do they not?

Untrue.

In the case of Honda H22 series motors that filter is intended to by-pass at higher RPMs. This is by design and what the engineers intended.

Most filters do not filter all of the oil passing through them 100% of the time...

Oh, and something else about the by-pass design on the Fram x2 filer (which appears to have a slightly stiffer spring than the rest of the Fram Designs... and I've taken them all apart!):

If the filter is filled with a liquid...which is nearly uncompressable... how is it that the by-pass valve is failing? How is the filter assembly being shocked enough to cause the by-pass valve to fail? Does ANYONE have 1st hand experience with this happening??

(Click Here to see pictures of all of the filters I've dissembled. )

[ May 13, 2004, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: gerhardb ]

gerhardb · May 13, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by sbc350gearhead:
Some GM engines use an oil filter with a bypass in the filter (saturns for one). Most do have contain the bypass in the block.

Yeah, but isn't Saturn using engines from Honda now?

ZR2RANDO · May 13, 2004

"So, if the SuperTech and FRAM X2 were each being sold for $1, you would select the SuperTech, right? That's interesting, and I'll leave it at that. "

They actually did put the ST filters that I use on sale one time for $1, I bought about 10 of them...if the ST and the X2 were both $1, I would buy about 10 more of the ST's and leave the X2's for the next guy....I like the black paint

Really, I would get the ST's. For an application that uses a bypass in the filter (my Nissan truck) though I would go with Wix or Purolator/Motorcraft though because of the bypass location.

T-Keith · May 13, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by ZiTS:
]I have absolutely NO affiliation with FRAM, Honeywell, or anyone/anything associated with oil filters. Sorry, nice try though. I understand that simply because someone tries to give a reasonable, objective opposing view of FRAM that that would mean they must be on the payroll.

I am doing the exact same thing that you stated you're doing, just from the other side of the coin. I've never accused you of being on the payroll for AC Delco, have I?

No you haven't, glad to see we are on the same page.

quote:

And the reason I'm "very defensive", as you put it, has been stated by myself several times. I'm tired of reading people badmouthing FRAM as a whole with stories from the past, legends of 3rd party failurs, etc., that have nothing to do with the actual topic at hand. They seek merely to badmouth a company as a whole, which leads to rumors and conjectures.

Something I have never done. My complaints of Fram all come from filter "disection" and first hand experience.

quote:

I'm sure you can tell me why no one has a problem paying $10 for a Mobil 1 oil filter, even though it has been stated on here time and time again that Mobil 1 filters have less than perfect flow rates and really aren't anything extraordinary?

I've never recomended a M1 filter unless someone has stated they didn't care about price or were already spending close to $10.

quote:

Why is it that, even though Mobil Drive Clean dino oil is not acknowledged as being one of the "best" oils, Mobil 1 is one of the "best" oils? Same company, different product. {BTW: I love Exxon/Mobil, so I'm not trying to attack them. I'm simply using these products as an example.} However, it seems that because the FRAM Extra Guard may not be one of the "best" oil filters, NO filter (read: X2) from FRAM will ever be acceptable. You're calling that fair? Next time someone says something good about Mobil 1, I guess I'll need to jump right in and badmouth Mobil because of their Mobil Drive Clean.

I've never said that all fram's must be bad, or that the X2 is bad because of the Extra guard. The X2's faults are the design elements it shares with the Extra guard.(ADBV, ect.)

quote:

The original poster inquired about the X2, and that is what I have been focusing on. I've bought them, I've used them, and I've cut them open. Until the time where proof is shown that the X2 does not do its' job, I will continue to stick by my belief that THE FRAM X2 IS A VERY GOOD, WELL BUILT OIL FILTER. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is your opinion. My opinion is that the design components that the X2 shares with the Extra guard are reason enough not to buy it. You can't argue over opinion, only state your own.

quote:

So, if the SuperTech and FRAM X2 were each being sold for $1, you would select the SuperTech, right? That's interesting, and I'll leave it at that.

Without a doubt! Grease's study has shown that the SuperTech filter has a good comprimise of filtering and flow. Their construction is good and their ADBV is one of the best designs IMO. Interesting that a $2 filter would be chosen over a $10 one? I agree, but that is the case here.

I think that in reguards to the X2 filter, all that can be said of it has been. Thanks for the discussion, I hope it has helped people decided whether or not to buy a X2 filter. It's always nice to hear both sides of an argument.

Grease is the word, I eagerly await your study, hope you've got the M1 and Purolator in this time too.

-T

Fram X2 oil filter

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