Former Allison Transmission Fluids Engineer

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Only the front seal on Allison transmissions are Viton. None of the internal seals (such as piston seals) that they were aware of are made of Viton.


Do we know what the typical GM 60 and 80 series transmissions do use for internal seals?

How many transmission fluids have a seal conditioner or sweller?



All ATFs have seal conditioners.

The stated Allison problem according to Transynd was not seal swelling, but hardening and cracking of Viton seals. Which seals had these problems were not stated.

 

[T-Stick]

I know your specialty is the Allison transmissions, but I thought perhaps your familiarity with the Dex/Merc/TES-389 fluid specification might cause you to have an opinion as to whether a Mercon V fluid is as good the original Mercon in an older Mecon specified tranny.

 

[MR_TRANSYND]

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
I know your specialty is the Allison transmissions, but I thought perhaps your familiarity with the Dex/Merc/TES-389 fluid specification might cause you to have an opinion as to whether a Mercon V fluid is as good the original Mercon in an older Mecon specified tranny.


Sorry,
I'm not an expert on Ford transmissions. What does your Owner's Manual call for in the transmission (Type F, MERCON or MERCON V)?

 

[DWC28]

Can you explain what chemical constituent actually hardens and cracks a Viton seal? I realize the polymer is not as highly fluorinated as Kalrez, but what hydrocarbon component will cause it to deteriorate?

If you can view US patents, 5,466,387 assigned to AGIP discusses this in detail. The following is lifted directly from the patent with some editing. Fluorinated elastomers are commonly used as gaskets.... to prevent lubricant leakage... On this respect, fluorinated elastomers possess a virtually unique combination of excellent thermal stability and resistance to various types of fluids. Such fluorinated gaskets can however be attacked...by nitrogen components contained in lubricating oils, in particular by amines of basic character. In this respect it seems certain that said attack consists of the base catalyzed elimination of hydrofluoric acid, with the consequent formation of unsaturations. With regard to its mechanical properties, the thus deteriorated fluorelastomer loses elasticity and elongation until it no longer possesses sealing capacity. Of the nitrogenated components normally used in lubricants, disuccinimides with dispersant action have proved particularly critical toward fluorinated elastomers....

 

[T-Stick]

The owner's manual calls for mercon--which Ford does not make anymore. Ford at first said do not use mercon v, but then they reformulated their mercon v and published a bulletin which states that mercon v replaces mercon--which means that now mercon v is a multi-spec fluid. Some companies such as Valvoline still formulate the for the old spec and some tranny shops still say the old spec is better then the multi-spec mercon v and has given them better longevity.

 

[MolaKule]

I would recommend the VV360 page 2, left, second down.

Quote:
Valvoline ATF Recommended for
MERCON®V Applications
• Recommended for most Ford vehhicles

Valvoline ATF


or the Amsoil

UATF


or the Redline D4

Redline D4

 

[MolaKule]

I would recommend the VV360 page 2, left, second down.

Quote:
Valvoline ATF Recommended for
MERCON®V Applications
• Recommended for most Ford vehhicles

Valvoline ATF


or the Amsoil

UATF


or the Redline D4

Redline D4


Here is what ConocoPhillips says about Mercon vs. MerconV, etc:


Quote:
MERCON®V ATF is a premium quality, synthetic blend
transmission fluid approved for use in passenger car and light
truck automatic transmissions that require a Ford MERCON®V
fluid. It is back serviceable for use in 2006 and earlier model-year Ford vehicles where the OEM previously specified MERCON® fluid, and also may be used in most 2005 and earlier model-year GM automatic transmissions.

MERCON®V ATF is formulated to provide improved antiwear and anti-shudder performance compared with previous-generation
fluids, as well as better low-temperature properties.

It is highly shear stable and has excellent oxidation resistance for long fluid life.

 

[T-Stick]

I chose the VV 353 because of some cautions still given by tranny shops which say the mercon V has too many friction modifiers for longevity with the 4R100 when towing. I use a magnefine on the return line and plan to change the 6 quarts of pan oil every 15k.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
I chose the VV 353 because of some cautions still given by tranny shops which say the mercon V has too many friction modifiers for longevity with the 4R100 when towing. I use a magnefine on the return line and plan to change the 6 quarts of pan oil every 15k.


If towing changing 6 quarts of ATF every 15k is a good idea.

I work with a tech school and three tranny shops here and most transmission shops will tell you that neither they nor their customers can tell you what fluid was used in the transmissions. The exceptions are the fleet customers in which the tranny shops have serviced the transmission and know what fill fluid has been put in the trannys.

What or which transmission shops are telling you that MerconV has too many friction modifiers?

From a 2006 Lube Report:

Quote:
All transmissions recommending Mercon ATF can now be serviced with Mercon V,” Ved later told Lube Report. “Mercon V is a tighter specification, requiring better anti-oxidation, antiwear and anti-shudder properties from service-fill ATFs. We are doing this because we want to ensure our customers get the better fluid.


Mercon and MerconV discussion from Lube Report

 

[T-Stick]

I personally have not polled the tranny shops as i have not had tranny issues, but on 7.3 powerstroke forums there are a fair number of drivers that have reported that some of the tranny shops they are familiar with are reporting more failures with the 4R100 when they started using mercon v than when they were servicing with straight mercon.

Ford initially said mercon v could not be used as it had too many friction modifiers and then they reformulated the mercon v and issued a bulletin saying to use the new mercon v and motorcraft quit making mercon. Mercon spec fluid is only available through other brands now.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Ford initially said mercon v could not be used as it had too many friction modifiers and then they reformulated the mercon v and issued a bulletin saying to use the new mercon v and motorcraft quit making mercon. Mercon spec fluid is only available through other brands now.



There was some serious discussion regarding Mercon LV verses Mercon SP but I have never heard of the above.


Ford finally came out with this message reagarding LV vs SP:


Quote:
MESSAGE TITLE: REPLACEMENT TRANSMISSION FLUID FOR SERVICING TORQSHIFT TRANSMISSIONS

APPLICABLE VEHICLES :
2003 - 2005 TRUCK : 00126 EXCURSION
2003 - 2008 TRUCK : 00028 F-SERIES
2004 - 2008 TRUCK : 00016 E-SERIES
2006 - 2008 TRUCK : 00175 F-SERIES MOTORHOME
2006 - 2008 HEAVY TRUCK : 00168 LOW CAB FORWARD

OASIS MESSAGE :
ALL 2003-2008 F-SUPER DUTY, 2003-2005 EXCURSION, 2004-2008 E-SERIES AND 2006-2008 LCF VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A TORQSHIFT AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS SHOULD BE SERVICED WITH MERCON LV AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID IN PLACE OF MERCON SP.

THIS INCLUDES TOP OFF AS WELL AS FLUID REPLACEMENT. MIXING MERCON LV AND MERCON SP IN THE TORQSHIFT TRANSMISSION IS ACCEPTABLE. USE MERCON LV TRANSMISSION FLUID

TO SERVICE VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH TORQSHIFT TRANSMISSIONS. WHEN ADDING OR REPLACING TRANSMISSION FLUID IN A VEHICLE EQUIPPED WITH A TORQSHIFT TRANSMISSION, USE MERCON LV TRANSMISSION FLUID.

 

[T-Stick]

one example here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2202741

 

[T-Stick]

and here

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f24/effects-mercon-v-4r100-70024/

 

[MR_TRANSYND]

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
The owner's manual calls for mercon--which Ford does not make anymore. Ford at first said do not use mercon v, but then they reformulated their mercon v and published a bulletin which states that mercon v replaces mercon--which means that now mercon v is a multi-spec fluid. Some companies such as Valvoline still formulate the for the old spec and some tranny shops still say the old spec is better then the multi-spec mercon v and has given them better longevity.


T-Stick,
MERCON V should give you improved friction stability and improved oxidation performance over the older MERCON fluids. Both equate to improved performance over a longer period of time. I'd use oil analysis to check the fluid once a year after changing over to MERCON V.

 

[kschachn]

But not the cracking of the seals, right? It wouldn't have some distinctive analysis signature that would show that, would it?

Originally Posted By: MR_TRANSYND
If you've got a 2003, then you cannot use DEXRON-VI. It will harden and crack the Viton seals. Use the Mobil DELVAC Synthetic (TES-295) product. Do an oil analysis once a year using my Advanced Oil Analysis Kit (JGOA22). That will keep your baby running smoothly and will detect anything going on inside that you might want to know about.

 

[MR_TRANSYND]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
But not the cracking of the seals, right? It wouldn't have some distinctive analysis signature that would show that, would it?

Originally Posted By: MR_TRANSYND
If you've got a 2003, then you cannot use DEXRON-VI. It will harden and crack the Viton seals. Use the Mobil DELVAC Synthetic (TES-295) product. Do an oil analysis once a year using my Advanced Oil Analysis Kit (JGOA22). That will keep your baby running smoothly and will detect anything going on inside that you might want to know about.


Kschachn,
You are correct. An oil analysis would not detect had hardened or cracked seals. Only a tear down inspection would reveal that which you'd only do if you had a visible and excessive transmission fluid leak at either the input or output of the transmission.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: DWC28

Can you explain what chemical constituent actually hardens and cracks a Viton seal? I realize the polymer is not as highly fluorinated as Kalrez, but what hydrocarbon component will cause it to deteriorate?

If you can view US patents, 5,466,387 assigned to AGIP discusses this in detail. The following is lifted directly from the patent with some editing. Fluorinated elastomers are commonly used as gaskets.... to prevent lubricant leakage... On this respect, fluorinated elastomers possess a virtually unique combination of excellent thermal stability and resistance to various types of fluids. Such fluorinated gaskets can however be attacked...by nitrogen components contained in lubricating oils, in particular by amines of basic character. In this respect it seems certain that said attack consists of the base catalyzed elimination of hydrofluoric acid, with the consequent formation of unsaturations. With regard to its mechanical properties, the thus deteriorated fluorelastomer loses elasticity and elongation until it no longer possesses sealing capacity. Of the nitrogenated components normally used in lubricants, disuccinimides with dispersant action have proved particularly critical toward fluorinated elastomers....


Interesting find. Aligns to what is being said about the seals. Trav has also mentioned older types of Viton that were more prone to degradation. It could be a possibility that an amine isn't an amine, ie various chemistries differ in terms of their interactions, or that other components of the base fluid facilitate a reaction and attack.

There could also be inconsistencies in the 1000hr test regimen that cause seal issues from some other reason that get blamed on the chemistry(?).

 

[901Memphis]

Is Transynd appropriate for a 4T65E?

 

[Papa Bear]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Is Transynd appropriate for a 4T65E?


Good question, and if it is appropriate why would one choose Transynd over Dex VI in a 4T65E ?

 

[MR_TRANSYND]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Is Transynd appropriate for a 4T65E?


901Memphis,

Yes. No problem at all with TranSynd in a GM 4T65E.