Former Allison Transmission Fluids Engineer

[MR_TRANSYND]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
I agree. I worked as a research technologist for a large corporation, my work was in materials characterization. We used all sorts of fluorinated polymers, never did I see anything that would cause Viton to harden or crack.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I do know what chemical compounds will cause Viton swelling but harden and crack seals?


To all concerned,
First of all, I am not a chemist. But, I'll tell you what I remember about this subject.

Not all Vitons will harden and crack when exposed to transmission fluids. The problem was related to older (Type I and II) "non-base resistant" fluoroelastomers (Vitons). Hardening and cracking was related to amine based additives. Interestingly, amine type chemistries were, at one time, used to cure these older Type I and II Vitons. With regard to the particular additive components responsible for the hardening and cracking, no one really knows except the additive companies and that information is strictly proprietary to the additive company. For this reason, Allison developed a test (refer to TES-389) that was capable of sorting through licensed DEXRON-IIIH formulations to check compatibility with the particular Viton seal material in use in older Allison products (I won't divulge either the reference fluids used in the test or the particular Viton material designation).

Suffice it to say that the TES-389 specification allowed older DEXRON-IIIH fluids to pass if they did not have a significant affect on the older Allison Viton seal material. In other words, they didn't act like DEXRON-VI in the test. The fluids that did pass were approved and added to the TES-389 list of approved products shown on the Allison website. The fluids that failed the test did not make the list.

Note: As stated, not all DEXRON-IIIH fluids were shown to be compatible; however, those fluids are still on the market today. This is why it's not a good idea to put anything into your Allison transmission except TES-389 or TES-295 approved fluids if you have the older seals in your transmission as determined by serial number.

 

[Trav]

I use Viton exclusively in my fuel injection business. These O rings have to withstand pressure and temperature living in gasoline environment.

OEM O rings are Viton so i feel comfortable using them. They seem to be resistant to most chemicals and oils.
I am wondering though. Maybe something on this list is in Dex VI?

Could you look into this for us Molakule? It would be very much appreciated.

http://www.allorings.com/compatibility.htm

Edit: I just found this from Valvoline. I don't know what to make of it.

THOMAS R. SMITH
Technical Director, Valvoline Brand

February 14, 2006


To Whom It May Concern:

Valvoline has received several inquiries regarding the topic of MaxLife ATF and its use in various vehicles beyond those requiring DEXRON-III or MERCON approved products. In response to these questions, Valvoline has issued the following statements: Valvoline supports the use of MaxLife ATF in a broad range of transmissions beyond those requiring DEXRON III and MERCON fluids including those in most North American and Asian manufactured vehicles and those applications listed below:

•Allison C-4 •Allison TranSynd (TES-295) •Audi G-052-025-A2 •BMW LT71141 or LA2634 fluids •Ford MERCON V •GM 9986195 •GM DEXRON II •Honda/Acura ATF-Z1 (except in CVTs) •Hyundai •JWS 3309 •KIA SP-II and SP-III Fluids •MAN 339 Type F •MB Sheet 236.x •Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II or SP-III •Nissan Matic-D, Matic-J, and Matic-K •Toyota / Lexus Type T, T-III or T-IV •Voith H55.6335.33 (G607) •Voith H55.6336.33 (G1363) •Volvo 1161521 and 1161540 •VW TL52162 •ZF TE-ML-14B, 16L and 17C

Valvoline has conducted in-house testing to support MaxLife ATF performance in these transmissions. However, it is important to note that these vehicle manufacturers have neither evaluated nor approved MaxLife ATF. Valvoline stands behind all of its products, including MaxLife ATF. Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle’s warranty. In the unlikely event that you or your customer experiences any transmission damage while using MaxLifeATF, please contact Valvoline at 1-800-Team-VAL for assistance. While MaxLife ATF is designed to meet the special needs of higher mileage transmissions, new transmission scan also benefit from its enhanced oxidation protection, shear stability, seal compatibility, and anti-shudder protection and many consumers have chosen to take advantage of this level of performance. MaxLife ATF is recommended for the new 5 and 6 speed transmissions, except the Ford 5R110 and Ford6RXX (MERCON SP), the Toyota/Lexus 6-speed (Toyota WS), and the Mercedes Benz W7A700 (7G-Tronic) which all require a low viscosity ATF fluid. Valvoline does not recommend MaxLife ATF for use in continuously variable transmissions (CVT’s) or in automatic transmissions where Ford Type F fluids are recommended.


Sincerely,

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Could you look into this for us Molakule? It would be very much appreciated.

http://www.allorings.com/compatibility.htm


I see what you're getting at Trav and have this list, and others, as well.

Columns 1,2, and 4 are the important ones and I saw nothing in that list that would be a component in any ATF, including DexVI. And I know what components are in the PI package as I deal with the additive supplier almost monthly.

As to your second comment, Valvoline has tested its MaxLife in TES-295 apps and found no problems.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I use Viton exclusively in my fuel injection business. These O rings have to withstand pressure and temperature living in gasoline environment.


Interestingly, about the only chems that causes swelling issues in Vitons are the Ketones and Ketones are a component in fuels, and fuel systems use Viton sealing almost exclusively.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Could you look into this for us Molakule? It would be very much appreciated.

http://www.allorings.com/compatibility.htm


I see what you're getting at Trav and have this list, and others, as well.

Columns 1,2, and 4 are the important ones and I saw nothing in that list that would be a component in any ATF, including DexVI. And I know what components are in the PI package as I deal with the additive supplier almost monthly.

As to your second comment, Valvoline has tested its MaxLife in TES-295 apps and found no problems.


Thanks Molakule thats reassuring.

 

[kschachn]

And of course swelling is not always a problem, it depends on the amount of swelling and the design of the joint. In some applications it can be a good thing.

I'm just still stuck on the whole "harden and crack" claim, and that it is related to some unknown component of Dex VI, and that this issue isn't plastered on every container of Dex VI.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Interestingly, about the only chems that causes swelling issues in Vitons are the Ketones and Ketones are a component in fuels, and fuel systems use Viton sealing almost exclusively.

 

[Trav]

It is strange the fuel contains compounds that can attack Viton.
I talked to the manufacturer today. They use different grades and types of Viton for fuel systems.
The ones i am using are resistant to these chemicals, methanol and bio fuels. The original Viton formula apparently is not.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
And of course swelling is not always a problem, it depends on the amount of swelling and the design of the joint. In some applications it can be a good thing.

I'm just still stuck on the whole "harden and crack" claim, and that it is related to some unknown component of Dex VI, and that this issue isn't plastered on every container of Dex VI.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Interestingly, about the only chems that causes swelling issues in Vitons are the Ketones and Ketones are a component in fuels, and fuel systems use Viton sealing almost exclusively.


I do not think it is an issue which is why it isn't "plastered" all over he billboards.

No one has presented any data to show that DexronVI has any components that will harden and crack Viton seals.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Trav
It is strange the fuel contains compounds that can attack Viton.
I talked to the manufacturer today. They use different grades and types of Viton for fuel systems.
The ones i am using are resistant to these chemicals, methanol and bio fuels. The original Viton formula apparently is not.



There are many different formulas and shades of Viton for a myriad of applications.

I don't know why a transmission manufacturer would use a certain type of seal, say DexronVI was ok, and then turn around only to find he has a seal problem and then says use only TES-295.

On a historical note, amines have been used in ATF formulations since the DexII era. Amines are found primarily in anti-oxidants and friction modifiers.

To design a transmission with seals sensitive to amines does not make a lot of sense.

 

[Trav]

Would it in your opinion be wise to use caution using these modern fluids in something like older pre Dex II units?

Your right i just doesn't seem like the thing to do using seals not compatible with amines in a modern transmission.
But neither does BMW using Buna-N for the Vanos seals as long as they did.

Do you think Valvoline addresses the situation well enough though with their answer?
It almost seems like the ML might be better at backward compatibility then Dex VI itself but i have no idea. Thoughts?

TIA

 

[MolaKule]

I went to my two local transmission shops I work with on MTL and ATF formulations and came back with this info:

Only the front seal on Allison transmissions are Viton. None of the internal seals (such as piston seals) that they were aware of are made of Viton.

Now this front seal is subject to a lot of mechanical rubbing forces and TC heat, which can wear down this seal and cause it to crack, respectively. They could not correlate this front seal failure with the fluid being used.

I asked about which fluid they use and both said they use a (bulk tank) DexronIII/Mercon fluid made by one of our local blenders, because they get it at low cost. They said when their supplier is able to offer a DexronVI type fluid for the same price as a DexIII, they will be using it in GM, Allison, and other transmissions. They will use OEM and other fluids if specifically requested by the customer.

We discussed the supposed incompatibility issue of DexronVI in certain Allison transmissions. They have not encountered any Allison transmission problems with owners running DexronVI, MaxLife or DexronIII fluids.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Do you think Valvoline addresses the situation well enough though with their answer?


I am not sure what response you are referring to but if it was along the lines of another poster's thread and comments in a recent thread, I will not rehash the topic here.


Quote:
It almost seems like the ML might be better at backward compatibility then Dex VI itself but i have no idea. Thoughts?


In speaking with one of the licensed additive supplier's, the MAxLIfe PI chemistry is essentially a DexVI with slightly tweaked friction modification.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Would it in your opinion be wise to use caution using these modern fluids in something like older pre Dex II units?


If this were an older, never before rebuilt orserviced transmission that speced only DexronII fluids I would only recommend a mineral based fluid with such examples as:

MAG1

Dex/Merc

Brad Penn

CAM2

or the such like.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Would it in your opinion be wise to use caution using these modern fluids in something like older pre Dex II units?


If this were an older, never before rebuilt orserviced transmission that speced only DexronII fluids I would only recommend a mineral based fluid with such examples as:

MAG1

Dex/Merc

Brad Penn

CAM2

or the such like.


Am I to conclude that a full synthetic TES 295 approved fluid in my 1993 Volvo 245 AW70 transmission is not advised? Transmission has had one drain and fill with a mineral D/M ATF plus internal filter change in 77k. Gently driven.

 

[Trav]

No not the other poster thread i wont go there either, i meant this answer..

Quote:
Valvoline has received several inquiries regarding the topic of MaxLife ATF and its use in various vehicles beyond those requiring DEXRON-III or MERCON approved products. In response to these questions, Valvoline has issued the following statements: Valvoline supports the use of MaxLife ATF in a broad range of transmissions beyond those requiring DEXRON III and MERCON fluids including those in most North American and Asian manufactured vehicles and those applications listed below:

•Allison C-4 •Allison TranSynd (TES-295) •Audi G-052-025-A2 •BMW LT71141 or LA2634 fluids •Ford MERCON V •GM 9986195 •GM DEXRON II •Honda/Acura ATF-Z1 (except in CVTs) •Hyundai •JWS 3309 •KIA SP-II and SP-III Fluids •MAN 339 Type F •MB Sheet 236.x •Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II or SP-III •Nissan Matic-D, Matic-J, and Matic-K •Toyota / Lexus Type T, T-III or T-IV •Voith H55.6335.33 (G607) •Voith H55.6336.33 (G1363) •Volvo 1161521 and 1161540 •VW TL52162 •ZF TE-ML-14B, 16L and 17C


Do you think their in house testing tested specifically for this issue?
Thanks very much for the legwork, this has had a few folks worried that they may have put some seal damaging sauce in their transmissions.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
If this were an older, never before rebuilt orserviced transmission that speced only DexronII fluids I would only recommend a mineral based fluid with such examples as:

MAG1

Dex/Merc

Brad Penn

CAM2

or the such like.


Quote:
Am I to conclude that a full synthetic TES 295 approved fluid in my 1993 Volvo 245 AW70 transmission is not advised? Transmission has had one drain and fill with a mineral D/M ATF plus internal filter change in 77k. Gently driven.



I would not conclude that at all.

Valvoline says it is suitable for Allison C4 and TES-389 applications, it does not say it is approved or licensed by Allison.

 

[MR_TRANSYND]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Trav
It is strange the fuel contains compounds that can attack Viton.
I talked to the manufacturer today. They use different grades and types of Viton for fuel systems.
The ones i am using are resistant to these chemicals, methanol and bio fuels. The original Viton formula apparently is not.



There are many different formulas and shades of Viton for a myriad of applications.

I don't know why a transmission manufacturer would use a certain type of seal, say DexronVI was ok, and then turn around only to find he has a seal problem and then says use only TES-295.

On a historical note, amines have been used in ATF formulations since the DexII era. Amines are found primarily in anti-oxidants and friction modifiers.

To design a transmission with seals sensitive to amines does not make a lot of sense.


To All Concerned,
I'm not sure you guys are understanding this issue. Allison originally designed the 1000/2000 and 3000/4000 Series transmissions back in the late 1980s and early 1990s which was years before DEXRON-VI was released by GM. Once DEXRON-VI was available to us for testing, we ran it in a 1000 hour durability test in our test department and found that it caused the Viton seals to harden and crack. It's not like Allison knew about DEXRON-VI and intentionally used seal materials that reacted badly to DEXRON_VI. On the contrary, it was the other way around. DEXRON-VI came along years after these transmissions were being produced.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Do you think their in house testing tested specifically for this issue?


I assume you are speaking to the Viton seal issue.

I can't say for sure they have.

I do know the additive developer ran this formula in many transmissions as they have an extensive set of lab facilities. Did they run the formula on older Allison transmissions (series 1000 etc) or the more modern models? I cannot answer that.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Only the front seal on Allison transmissions are Viton. None of the internal seals (such as piston seals) that they were aware of are made of Viton.


Do we know what the typical GM 60 and 80 series transmissions do use for internal seals?

How many transmission fluids have a seal conditioner or sweller?

 

[T-Stick]

Mr Transynd,
Do you have any opinion of using the Mercon vs.Mercon V in an older transmission like the Ford 4R100. Ford initially said the Mercon and Mercon V were incompatible specs and then they reformulated to make Mercon V backwards compatible. However some transmission shops still say the original DexIII/Mercon spec is best for the 4R100 since it has less friction modifiers. So in your opinion is it better to stay with a Mercon only fluid in these transmissions such as the Valvoline DexronIII/Mercon ATF rather than using a Valvoline Maxlife Mercon/Mercon V compatible ATF?