Ford 5.4l 3v design /5w20

[modularv8]

Good information. I found some more information on the functioning of the VCT phaser from Motorcraft. The following is what I found,

The basics of VCT operation are:
• A hydraulic timing mechanism (VCT phaser) rotates the camshafts in relation to their drive sprockets.
– Provides performance that is precisely tailored to the engine speed and load.
– VCT is electronically controlled (PCM duty cycled) and hydraulically operated.
• The VCT solenoid moves a spool valve to control the flow of oil through the VCT system.
– Oil flows from the head into the VCT valve body.
– Oil flows through the advance or retard passages as directed by the spool valve.
• Oil flows through the VCT valve body:
– To the chain tensioner.
– Through a metered orifice back into the head.
• Major sensor inputs:
– CMP
– Oil temperature sensor
The VCT system uses a replaceable oil temperature sensor, located on the oil pan.
• Engine oil temperature has a direct effect on VCT operation.
– Cold engine oil has high viscosity and slower flow characteristics.
– The VCT system is disabled at oil temperatures below -7°C (18°F).
– The PCM uses time-since-start, engine oil temperature and engine rpm to calculate VCT solenoid operation.
– Time-since-start ranges from 60 seconds when cold to 10 seconds when hot.
• Engine oil recommended drain intervals must be followed to ensure integrity of VCT system.
3-10

Also saw many pictures of the VCT that have "metered orifices".

So I would say the VCT modulars should be run on 5w20.

 

[Jason2007]

As good as the 20wt oils have gotten, is there really a need to experiment with other weights? Especially if you are driving a stock or mildly modded car?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Gary - You are correct. In fact low viscosity (0W-20 IIRC) lubricants were first used seriously in Europe - especially by the Germans - in the early 1970s. They caused huge problems and were quickly discontinued. Later ACEA took the reins and drove the real world of engine lubricants a quantum leap forward IMO


I would have expected them to be there first. It obviously got in the way of too many other directions that they tend to go in.

..and I have to agree that ACEA creates its own little (big, actually) circus to provide hoops and hurdles that are pretty impressive. My Yankee draconian origins tend to look at them as features/qualifications that create more distinction in exclusivity than they do in true outright performance ..but that's just my crude opinion. I mean, why a scalpel when a butcher house clever will work?

Quote:
I think modern low viscosity lubricants and engines designed for low friction are a very happy combination. However as Ford have acknowledged previously - in markets where similar engines are marketed - the use of other recommended (higher) viscosities have had no measurable impact on longevity!


I'd have a hard time finding anywhere that a high(er) visc oil shortened the life of an engine outside of some really narrow set of conditions ..like near either of the poles. Otherwise, it's a matter of sensible usage. Grandmum in Oz won't be served well by 40-70 going to church 1-10kms away. Nor will Großmutter by 0w-40/5w-40.

There will surely be limits to where lower visc lubes are going to function adequately, but there are terms and conditions that apply here too. We have M1 5w-30 spec'd Corvettes that see 290F+ oil temps while at the track ..and the owners nor GM see a whole lot wrong with it. I haven't kept up ..but even if they're now spec'd for 0w-40 ..that ends up being a 30 grade in short enough time.

The point being "light" is a relative term. I'd also have a difficult time thinking that every car driven in Europe ..even by our teutonic heroes.. is some ultra-high powered large sump'd supercar. Yet that's just about the number one cited example of the virtues of heavier lubes. They've also got to have some retirement policy there that would stifle really determining longevity. I imagine it's just a different model than ours. We retire our cars due to lack of market value and the out of whack ratio that repair to retail produces over a 15 year lifespan. I imagine that there's a different obsolescence model employed there. Either it's mandated by emissions standards or just outright technological evolution. I don't know.

Quote:
In heavy high speed diesel engines the disparity between (generally) Euro and NA sump sizes and OCIs always intrigued me. Again, early on, Euro lubricant specs were much better than NA's API proffered. It was common to see a Euro 25lt sumped 400hp engine have 40kkms OCIs. The NA equivalent has 38ltrs and an OCI of 15kkms! Price of lubricants will always play a role too but the main reasons were combustion principles and general engine design and application philosophy variances!


We tend to default to some consumption model. Cubic inches is the cheapest way to horsepower ...etc..etc ..so this doesn't really surprise me. We never said that we were efficient in anything we do. Efficiency is merely an enabler for more unnecessary consumption.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Easy:

Most of the engines from those Euro manufacturers make significantly more power per cubic inch.


As I said, they tend to make (a) different kind of car.

Quote:
Note that we do NOT have the 425HP version of the 5.4L here.


Nor would it be worth producing it in the NA market at any sensible production level. Meanwhile millions of 4.6 and 5.4 tool along on 5w-20 and do so forever. These engines have yet to succumb to the liabilities of thin oils. This clearly indicates that there is little benefit (as these engines are configured) to using heavier fluids.

I don't think too many NA engines would make sense in Euro markets. They would tend to reduce displacement and increase power density ...or ...as you point out, crank up the power density to its maximum reliable level, and wrap around it in how to manage its needs ...like thicker oil.

 

[Big Jim]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
...

Ford Australia specs 5w30/10w30 for the 3V engines. So that in itself is proof that it is obviously not "necessary" to run 5w20, this would then lead one to believe the North American spec to at least in part be a function of CAFE.......


Or North America is more technologically advanced and has superior goods at the customer's disposal.

Using the "everyone else...." argument is a fallacy and a fool's errand. It makes for a lazy and silly argument.


That of course is why Ford of Australia has a 425HP version of the 5.4L DOHC, and we don't. Because we are so much more technologically advanced........

That is utterly ridiculous.

The Modular engines are setup no differently over there (with the exception of coming in variants offering higher power output) than they are here.

Australia has no CAFE, and subsequently there has never been a push to use lighter oil.

If 20-weight oils were the Holy Grail, companies like Mercedes Benz, Porsche, BMW and the like would be using them in their high output engines. But that is not the case, is it?

And in engines that ARE spec'd for lighter oil, like what is specifically mentioned in this article, sump size is increased, a higher volume oil pump is fitted and oil coolers are added to CONTROL SUMP TEMPERATURE. Why? Because when oil gets hot it gets THIN. And if you think a 20w oil is going to offer the same buffer of protection at high oil temperatures that a 40-weight will, I've got some land to sell you.

The "everyone else..." argument is only a fallacy when one does not want to look beyond the end of their own nose and feels that everything they do is "the best". Obviously ignorance is bliss in this case.


And so the 450, 500, 540, and 550 HP variants sold here in the US don't count?

 

[Jim Allen]

Note that all the big power modulars (to the best of my knowledge) do not use VCT.

VCT is really the only delineator that would pose a major viscosity choice problem to a modular V8.

ModularV8: Major kudos for finding that great description of VCT ops!

What I have been trying to find (I have an '05 F-150 5.4L V8) is what exactly happens when you make a big jump in viscosity. Such as a grade 40. There were some folks bragging about running 15W40 grade in the 3V engines and reporting no problems. I kinda doubt that, but I am still really curious as to how that heavy oil effected VCT operation.

Last year I had a great source on the Modular Engine engineering team at FoMoCo that was sharing lot of in depth stuff off the record. We were getting into VCT when he got his wee-wee whacked for speaking out of turn so I never did get the answers to my deep questions. Sigh!

Like you, I am sticking to 5W20 until I satisfy my informational needs. I wouldn't be afraid to use a 5W30, though. One day, when I catch up on other work, I may run 40 grade and Datalog VCT ops just to see.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Big Jim
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
...

Ford Australia specs 5w30/10w30 for the 3V engines. So that in itself is proof that it is obviously not "necessary" to run 5w20, this would then lead one to believe the North American spec to at least in part be a function of CAFE.......


Or North America is more technologically advanced and has superior goods at the customer's disposal.

Using the "everyone else...." argument is a fallacy and a fool's errand. It makes for a lazy and silly argument.


That of course is why Ford of Australia has a 425HP version of the 5.4L DOHC, and we don't. Because we are so much more technologically advanced........

That is utterly ridiculous.

The Modular engines are setup no differently over there (with the exception of coming in variants offering higher power output) than they are here.

Australia has no CAFE, and subsequently there has never been a push to use lighter oil.

If 20-weight oils were the Holy Grail, companies like Mercedes Benz, Porsche, BMW and the like would be using them in their high output engines. But that is not the case, is it?

And in engines that ARE spec'd for lighter oil, like what is specifically mentioned in this article, sump size is increased, a higher volume oil pump is fitted and oil coolers are added to CONTROL SUMP TEMPERATURE. Why? Because when oil gets hot it gets THIN. And if you think a 20w oil is going to offer the same buffer of protection at high oil temperatures that a 40-weight will, I've got some land to sell you.

The "everyone else..." argument is only a fallacy when one does not want to look beyond the end of their own nose and feels that everything they do is "the best". Obviously ignorance is bliss in this case.


And so the 450, 500, 540, and 550 HP variants sold here in the US don't count?


They all spec 5w50.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Easy:

Most of the engines from those Euro manufacturers make significantly more power per cubic inch.


As I said, they tend to make (a) different kind of car.

Quote:
Note that we do NOT have the 425HP version of the 5.4L here.


Nor would it be worth producing it in the NA market at any sensible production level. Meanwhile millions of 4.6 and 5.4 tool along on 5w-20 and do so forever. These engines have yet to succumb to the liabilities of thin oils. This clearly indicates that there is little benefit (as these engines are configured) to using heavier fluids.

I don't think too many NA engines would make sense in Euro markets. They would tend to reduce displacement and increase power density ...or ...as you point out, crank up the power density to its maximum reliable level, and wrap around it in how to manage its needs ...like thicker oil.


Gary:

At the power levels the current North American incarnations of the 4.6L and 5.4L currently produce, there is no liability with the thin oil. That was part of the point I was making. Ford has gone to a great deal of trouble to control sump temperature by way of a larger pan and large oil cooler. For the power levels of these engines, even during periods of sustained full load, the viscosity won't become an issue with this setup. They have engineered it that way.

The higher output variants, like those from the Shelby line, with the same sumps and same (or similar) oil coolers get a heavier oil. So obviously Ford has put some thought into this and weighted what they can and cannot do in regards to their 5w20 implementation. It isn't like they are spec'ing the whole family for 5w20 and saying "here ya go".

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Ah America...We get better lubes for lower prices.

 

[Gary Allan]

Sure. Now take that to Chevy and tell me the same things about 5w-30. They surely didn't just put the Vette out there with 5w-30 and say "Here you go boyz." without thinking it through.

Same with the truck line.

Again, thin is a relative thing and shaving +/- 1.2 cSt is kinda silly in establishing the high ground. Now the difference between 5w-20 and 20w-50, sure. BIG DEAL.

You need to make the same concessions for 5w-20 that you do for ultra high power. The 0w-40 that MB and all the Euro's drool over (with sterile napkins, surely) are absolutely reduced in visc at maximum sustainable output. They make those things as complete packages that DO have a sustainable output that is very close to MAXIMUM output.

So are they STUPID for using "virtual" sub 20 weight oils at high output? (see what I mean?).

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Sure. Now take that to Chevy and tell me the same things about 5w-30. They surely didn't just put the Vette out there with 5w-30 and say "Here you go boyz." without thinking it through.

Same with the truck line.

Again, thin is a relative thing and shaving +/- 1.2 cSt is kinda silly in establishing the high ground. Now the difference between 5w-20 and 20w-50, sure. BIG DEAL.

You need to make the same concessions for 5w-20 that you do for ultra high power. The 0w-40 that MB and all the Euro's drool over (with sterile napkins, surely) are absolutely reduced in visc at maximum sustainable output. They make those things as complete packages that DO have a sustainable output that is very close to MAXIMUM output.

So are they STUPID for using "virtual" sub 20 weight oils at high output? (see what I mean?).


The ZL1 has a massive dry sump setup on it and spec's 5w30.... And GM has ensured that the correct oil is used by suppling their own oil specs that must be met....

Just like Doug was talking about with the manufacturer specific approvals.

The GM engine is also of much higher displacement, meaning it has a lower power density. And it too has a large oil cooler.

Unless you know what the sump temps are of the engines you reference that are running 0w40, we really have no way to know if it is a "virtual" 20 weight or not. They have huge sumps, at least the high output ones.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Unless you know what the sump temps are of the engines you reference that are running 0w40, we really have no way to know if it is a "virtual" 20 weight or not. They have huge sumps, at least the high output ones.


Well, I can reason that if they don't ..then the need for an HTHS of >3.5 is a total waste, wouldn't you say?


..and for a 4.6 and/or 5.4 of our pathetic output, using heavier weight oil is pretty much a waste too. You can do it, but I doubt you could challenge the limits of the 5w-20.

It's gotta cut both ways, pal

There is no one way street on these formed triangles.

That is, IF you INSIST that high output in a like engine DEMANDS higher visc fluid, you MUST CONCEDE that lower power density out of the same engine ...does NOT. That's just a balanced equation.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Mobil here in OZ spec M1 0W-40 for most of these engines. M1 5W-50 is an alternative for the 4.0 turbo engine

M1 10W-30 is also variously recommended

Ambient temps here range for around -20C to 50C+ - take your pick! Typical spring cold start where I live is 20-26C!


10W-30 is also the recommended grade for the entire Ford product range in the Middle East - including those with Modular V8 engines.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Unless you know what the sump temps are of the engines you reference that are running 0w40, we really have no way to know if it is a "virtual" 20 weight or not. They have huge sumps, at least the high output ones.


Well, I can reason that if they don't ..then the need for an HTHS of >3.5 is a total waste, wouldn't you say?


..and for a 4.6 and/or 5.4 of our pathetic output, using heavier weight oil is pretty much a waste too. You can do it, but I doubt you could challenge the limits of the 5w-20.

It's gotta cut both ways, pal

There is no one way street on these formed triangles.

That is, IF you INSIST that high output in a like engine DEMANDS higher visc fluid, you MUST CONCEDE that lower power density out of the same engine ...does NOT. That's just a balanced equation.


I agree completely with that statement. I never stated that the 4.6L or 5.4L of North American origin require anything heavier than 5w30 for adequate protection. Since that is what the 2V Modular engines were designed around originally, my version included, even though it is new enough to be spec'd for 5w20. It also has an oil cooler that would make a Honda rad jealous (joking, but it is big).

And in regards to it being a waste? Yep probably. But I'm going to do it anyways because I like the results I'm seeing. Primarily a quieter running engine with zero consumption. And since I've run this engine on both grades, that was my call to make.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, it's a requirement for some. A preference for others.

I didn't think the 4.6 came standard with the Laminova® oil cooler or the BIG Long® sandwich. The CVPI came with it, but I wasn't aware all had them. I think there was some oddball cast engine piece at one point too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, it's a requirement for some. A preference for others.

I didn't think the 4.6 came standard with the Laminova® oil cooler or the BIG Long® sandwich. The CVPI came with it, but I wasn't aware all had them. I think there was some oddball cast engine piece at one point too.


I don't know about ALL the trucks, but I know a lot of them do. And ALL of them with the tow package do. Cars, I don't see the temperature being the same kind of issue, except for law enforcement and taxi use, which, coincidentally, come with the cooler stock.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Mobil here in OZ spec M1 0W-40 for most of these engines. M1 5W-50 is an alternative for the 4.0 turbo engine

M1 10W-30 is also variously recommended

Ambient temps here range for around -20C to 50C+ - take your pick! Typical spring cold start where I live is 20-26C!


10W-30 is also the recommended grade for the entire Ford product range in the Middle East - including those with Modular V8 engines.


Doesn't that include the Duratech 4 cyl engines like mine?

 

[Falcon_LS]

It does. Unless it's a diesel, 10W-30 is the recommended viscosity. For diesels, it's 15W-40.

 

[modularv8]

Not sure if anything would be noticeable in how it runs with 40 wt.(regarding VCT operation), but its the long-term gradual effect of running something out of spec that concerns me. But I do know the oil has to make its way through several passages and metered orifices in the VCT to other parts of the engine, most importantly the timing chain. I learned as a kid helping my dad in his refigeration business, is that "metered" orifice meant a fluid must pass through a pre-determined opening of given size in order to control(measure) the quantity of flow through it.

Another thing about these modulars is that they have no cam bearings and ride directly on the aluminum head with small clearances, therefore thinner lubricants 5w20/5w30 are needed to insure lubrication. Also these modulars use a "misting" lubrication system as opposed to port holes for lubricating cylinder walls and wrist pins. So using 5w20 is OPTIMAL for FUEL ECONOMY and DURABILITY in these engines.

I've read numerous tribology research papers regarding oil viscosities/additives/bearings/tests/etc. And from I found, all multigrade oils shear toward a 20 wt. Some resist it better than others. Some take longer to get there. Europeans have very long drain intervals/larger sumps/higher viscosity oil. The spec higher viscosity mostly to accommodate the shearing that takes place over the long drain interval.

Another thing that was apparent was that unless you find a way to drive your oil temperature up (racing/drag)to over 300F or accelerate thermal breakdown, you are not going to be in the red zone for causing engine damage/excessive wear. Going from a 40wt to 20wt is only 1 cSt of HTHSV difference (3.6 - 2.6). The bare minimum before you start to see wear is HTHS of 1.6 cSt. To see these conditions, something catastrophic has to occur(busted radiator hose/ over 360F). A 10w40 will only give another 30F more of protection from a 20wt in this dire situation. But you wouldn't be driving your car if these things happen, mine shuts down by the PCM. Never seen oil temperature over 195F here in Texas (108F day).

Our everyday wear mostly comes from ingested dirt/soot/other contaminants and depleted oil (additives) not from running a lower viscosity. But using a viscosity not a manufacturers spec may hurt your engine.

As an aside, some studies(Exxon/Paramins; A.I. Taylor -Shell Oil)mention the 4.6 modular as having an "appetite" for thin viscosities, just the way they are made.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
Another thing about these modulars is that they have no cam bearings and ride directly on the aluminum head with small clearances, therefore thinner lubricants 5w20/5w30 are needed to insure lubrication.


The GT500 factory recommends 5W-50 with the exact same cam journal clearances (and in fact the same cam part number as the 03/04 Cobra/Mach 1) as the 5W-20/5W-30 recommended Mod motors. A 5W-20/5W-30 is not needed to ensure lubrication.