I figure if the French are in Afghanistan, they're hiding from the Germans.
European View of the U.S.
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Imperialism is not defined solely by direct territorial acquisition. Imperialism also includes the process of gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas, or simply the extension or imposition of power, authority or influence. This has been the basis of US foreign policy since WWII.
When you suggest that the US should have a role to play in keeping the world safe, you are in fact advocating a form of imperialism. The US has military bases in countries all over the world. Ask yourself how you would feel if another country (for the sake of argument, let's say France) put a French military base near your hometown? Wouldn't you consider that to be an imperialist act? Oh, and by the way, Ethiopia is not in Europe.
When you suggest that the US should have a role to play in keeping the world safe, you are in fact advocating a form of imperialism. The US has military bases in countries all over the world. Ask yourself how you would feel if another country (for the sake of argument, let's say France) put a French military base near your hometown? Wouldn't you consider that to be an imperialist act? Oh, and by the way, Ethiopia is not in Europe.
Did you learn this nonsense at Berkley??
I've been saying the same thing about the military bases all over the world. these countries might see us as Imperialists just because of that. like we are monitoring them. I know we would be highly pissed if for say Russia or China had a military base here in the US.
Most people in the world, think of the U.S., the same way americans think of police officers. Noone wants em around, until the crap hits the fan...........and then they're the second coming.
I have absolutely no problems with staying out of the rest of the world's crap......but exactly how long do you think that would last, until they start bitching about the selfish americans that won't help out countries in need.
I am so tired of people stating that the rest of the world hates the us. That is just not true. Sure, the French are not crazy about Americans, but, then again, who likes the French? Ask anyone from England, they typically can't stand the French.
The Muslim Zealots have issues with the entire Western world, not just teh US. Al Queida had even planned on killing the pope! Why? Because Western values are a threat to their goals and control over their poeple. Also, the Muslim dislike the US because of the support of Isreal.
The Muslim Zealots have issues with the entire Western world, not just teh US. Al Queida had even planned on killing the pope! Why? Because Western values are a threat to their goals and control over their poeple. Also, the Muslim dislike the US because of the support of Isreal.
It is true that most of the world resents us for being too pushy and selfish, and trying to tell everybody else how they should run their countries.
Sure, they'll accept our money and aid, who, wouldn't?
But why does the price for our help have to be allowing us to have some degree of control over them?
Many feel that we give with one hand(but selectively)and take with the other.
Sure, they'll accept our money and aid, who, wouldn't?
But why does the price for our help have to be allowing us to have some degree of control over them?
Many feel that we give with one hand(but selectively)and take with the other.
Dock,
I hear you!
It must be noted that much of this hate has been taught to people throughtout the world.....it's no secret Muslim countries teach their people about the "horrors" of the American lifestyle
, so even without experiencing our culture and values, they are already hating us.
I hear you!
It must be noted that much of this hate has been taught to people throughtout the world.....it's no secret Muslim countries teach their people about the "horrors" of the American lifestyle
Imperiums are a funny thing. Within them is an opposition between nationalism and supra-nationalism. The Western imperium contains a further opposition in that it is contrapuntal (bi-polar), with a European component on the one hand and an American on the other.
If we may say the modern corporation is but the Viking longboat writ large, than the American form of imperium is the American whaler writ large. The key to the potential power of the American form of imperium is the deep seated antipathy towards Darwinism-Marxism. That is, where the ruling morality within the British Empire was Darwin's "Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life", with this morality becoming dominent in all of Europe along with it's corollary Marxism (it is no coincidence both are buried in London), the best of the American experience (where it has rejected this idiotic dogma) is different.
At the core of the American experience is a propensity to not pre-judge a man based upon Darwinist-Marxist principles, rather a wait and see attitude, a "Show me what you've got".
As for the European view of Americans, as a close relative put it to me who was a co-owner of a medical imagining company and who did extensive deals with Europeans, (just yesterday this person recounted how at a very high level meeting a Frenchman and a German **** near came to blows over the past), it's not so much the Europeans like or dislike Americans, it is that they hate two or three nationalities more and the one thing they do agree on is that the Americans are not at the top of anyones hate list
This person also has indirect dealings with the royal families in the Middle East and has some quite interesting views in that regards.
If we may say the modern corporation is but the Viking longboat writ large, than the American form of imperium is the American whaler writ large. The key to the potential power of the American form of imperium is the deep seated antipathy towards Darwinism-Marxism. That is, where the ruling morality within the British Empire was Darwin's "Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life", with this morality becoming dominent in all of Europe along with it's corollary Marxism (it is no coincidence both are buried in London), the best of the American experience (where it has rejected this idiotic dogma) is different.
At the core of the American experience is a propensity to not pre-judge a man based upon Darwinist-Marxist principles, rather a wait and see attitude, a "Show me what you've got".
As for the European view of Americans, as a close relative put it to me who was a co-owner of a medical imagining company and who did extensive deals with Europeans, (just yesterday this person recounted how at a very high level meeting a Frenchman and a German **** near came to blows over the past), it's not so much the Europeans like or dislike Americans, it is that they hate two or three nationalities more and the one thing they do agree on is that the Americans are not at the top of anyones hate list
This person also has indirect dealings with the royal families in the Middle East and has some quite interesting views in that regards.
What, when the U.N. says "we need more time", and the U.S. says "time is run out, here are the pictures of the WMD !!!! the U.N. are incompetent !!".quote:
Originally posted by Last_Z:
GM,
Your simple approach/answer is 100% correct, IMO.
Look at the French.....after we saved their hairy arses TWICE, you'd think they'd be willing to take some heat and help us out in Iraq. They are helping us in Afghanistan, but since I haven't heard of any French casualties, makes me wonder what they are doing there......serving chow.....cleaning services....moral support?
I believe 15-20 years down the road, Iraq will be a rich or fast developing country, thanks to the US. The minute we need their help for some serious and dangerous situation, they will turn their backs on us....just like the French and Germans and Japan.
How can you predict and friend or ally stabbing you in the back in the future????
No-one needed to help anyone out in Iraq, just let the U.N. do their job.
Some good (and FUNNY) points here.
One thing comes to mind from child raising -basically kids need to learn there is a balance - on abiding by rules, norms, doing things as judged by others...VS. just sometimes it doesn't matter what the other kids think of your green back pack, your eyeglasses, or what you have to do....
In the last 3+ years it really doesn't matter what some other countries think. We were attacked and we have threats - some big, some small. We need to take care of each one in the manner appropriate to eliminate the threat. A lot of the world may not like it, most of the world doesn't see it as "fair" or even appropriate to the task.....and without getting it specifics about every country, we need to deal with each threat country on a one by one basis, because it is OUR business. We can't just sit and hope and wish anymore. I thought this was clear on Sept 11, 2001. Still clear to me now.
Buster, just be very friendly to your Ethiopian co-worker. I mean love on the dude, and gently explain the above to him, then gently begin to explain to him why America works. Then get to the how. No need to tell him most African countries are festering holes (he knows this) - yet quite beautiful, with greatest and some of the friendliest, polite people on earth.
One thing comes to mind from child raising -basically kids need to learn there is a balance - on abiding by rules, norms, doing things as judged by others...VS. just sometimes it doesn't matter what the other kids think of your green back pack, your eyeglasses, or what you have to do....
In the last 3+ years it really doesn't matter what some other countries think. We were attacked and we have threats - some big, some small. We need to take care of each one in the manner appropriate to eliminate the threat. A lot of the world may not like it, most of the world doesn't see it as "fair" or even appropriate to the task.....and without getting it specifics about every country, we need to deal with each threat country on a one by one basis, because it is OUR business. We can't just sit and hope and wish anymore. I thought this was clear on Sept 11, 2001. Still clear to me now.
Buster, just be very friendly to your Ethiopian co-worker. I mean love on the dude, and gently explain the above to him, then gently begin to explain to him why America works. Then get to the how. No need to tell him most African countries are festering holes (he knows this) - yet quite beautiful, with greatest and some of the friendliest, polite people on earth.
Buster -
As one who is a naturalized American but lived under the site of falling B52 bombs, may I suggest this notion: The best way to understand people of different nationalities is to live where they're from and see their history and culture as they themselves do. Only then can you grasp their POV.
The U.S. is a superpower and as such her actions carry sizeable consequences, whether for better or worse. Though not an empire in the old definition where one nation invades and enslaves another, we have a significant amount of influence on the larger part of the world through the shear size/power of our economy and our business/financial interests around the world. Like all previous superpowers, we make and break ties/agreements to benefit ourselves as an entity. Our government branding its actions as "good" is for the most part - propaganda. Our government's previous suppport of Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war was beneficial to us. Our occupation of Iraq now is VIEWED by many as a safe measure to our security, though its outcome isn't yet conclusive. Our support to the Russians/Reds during WWII was beneficial to us. Our support of Ho Chi Minh before we broke our agreement (Geneva Accord) and fought him later on was thought to be beneficial to us. Our friendship and support to Mao when he was fighting Japan (WWII) was beneficial to us. Later, our decades long attempt to break up China into smaller nations is thought to be beneficial to us. The list goes on if you look into other resources of infomation other than the news media and American history books.
The problem in the Middle East is not the product of a few years but closer to 300 years of interaction with Europe (mainly England) and then with Europe and the U.S. The English pretty much messed up that region by supporting individuals beneficial to the British empire, not their own people. The U.S. then followed suit with support to Israel, the Shah, Hussein and one extremist after another. One generation of extremists followed another as they annihilated the moderate components of their societies. Just imagine if some foreign powers were to support only the left and rightwing extremists in the U.S. How long do you think we can last?
America is unique in the sense that her democratic foundation was unique. Her proposition to equality was unique. The regular change of blood in the political arena was unique and conducive to stability as well as progress. However, as an entity our methods and path to greater wealth and power aren't all that different to the superpowers that came before us... just different because we're in a different time. Why control a nation by force when you can control its economy, finance and industries?
It would be interesting to see the our nation 200 years from today. Will we be like Rome at the time of Nero (who made his favorite horse a senator)? Or would our leaders still have the Constitution at heart? Will we fall into our own tyranny (of the mass)?
[ January 25, 2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Bugzii ]
As one who is a naturalized American but lived under the site of falling B52 bombs, may I suggest this notion: The best way to understand people of different nationalities is to live where they're from and see their history and culture as they themselves do. Only then can you grasp their POV.
The U.S. is a superpower and as such her actions carry sizeable consequences, whether for better or worse. Though not an empire in the old definition where one nation invades and enslaves another, we have a significant amount of influence on the larger part of the world through the shear size/power of our economy and our business/financial interests around the world. Like all previous superpowers, we make and break ties/agreements to benefit ourselves as an entity. Our government branding its actions as "good" is for the most part - propaganda. Our government's previous suppport of Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war was beneficial to us. Our occupation of Iraq now is VIEWED by many as a safe measure to our security, though its outcome isn't yet conclusive. Our support to the Russians/Reds during WWII was beneficial to us. Our support of Ho Chi Minh before we broke our agreement (Geneva Accord) and fought him later on was thought to be beneficial to us. Our friendship and support to Mao when he was fighting Japan (WWII) was beneficial to us. Later, our decades long attempt to break up China into smaller nations is thought to be beneficial to us. The list goes on if you look into other resources of infomation other than the news media and American history books.
The problem in the Middle East is not the product of a few years but closer to 300 years of interaction with Europe (mainly England) and then with Europe and the U.S. The English pretty much messed up that region by supporting individuals beneficial to the British empire, not their own people. The U.S. then followed suit with support to Israel, the Shah, Hussein and one extremist after another. One generation of extremists followed another as they annihilated the moderate components of their societies. Just imagine if some foreign powers were to support only the left and rightwing extremists in the U.S. How long do you think we can last?
America is unique in the sense that her democratic foundation was unique. Her proposition to equality was unique. The regular change of blood in the political arena was unique and conducive to stability as well as progress. However, as an entity our methods and path to greater wealth and power aren't all that different to the superpowers that came before us... just different because we're in a different time. Why control a nation by force when you can control its economy, finance and industries?
It would be interesting to see the our nation 200 years from today. Will we be like Rome at the time of Nero (who made his favorite horse a senator)? Or would our leaders still have the Constitution at heart? Will we fall into our own tyranny (of the mass)?
[ January 25, 2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Bugzii ]
Although frankly I also come down on the side of not getting involved in other countries affairs so much, but IMHO going into Iraq was clearly the right thing to do. Shoulda done it 12 years ago but that's what happens when you listen to the U.N.
It certainly wouldn't be recognizable to Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison...,et.al.
This is absolutely true. I think we must remember that what is good for us, isn't always good for everyone.
Regarding the Middle East: Many people believe that the goal of UBL (OBL?) is to drive a wedge between the US and the Saudi Royal Family. These Zealots want all Middle Eastern countries to be ruled by Muslim govts, similar to the Taliban, and oppose the Saudi Royal Family. They are also trying to assisinate Pakistan's President (Musharif).
Also keep in mind that India is constanly battling terrorism. The Muslim Extremists want the Kashmir region of India to be part of Pakistan. Why? Because the majority of the people there are Muslim.
Also, please keep in mind that Russia, Germany, and France were violating the UN sanctions on Irag by selling them arms and other goods and services. One of the reasons that these countries opposed the US invasion is that Sadam owned them billions, which they can't collect on now. Clearly, these countries acted in the same fashion as the US has in other instances (such as Iran in the 70s).
[ January 25, 2004, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: DockHoliday ]
Also keep in mind that India is constanly battling terrorism. The Muslim Extremists want the Kashmir region of India to be part of Pakistan. Why? Because the majority of the people there are Muslim.
Also, please keep in mind that Russia, Germany, and France were violating the UN sanctions on Irag by selling them arms and other goods and services. One of the reasons that these countries opposed the US invasion is that Sadam owned them billions, which they can't collect on now. Clearly, these countries acted in the same fashion as the US has in other instances (such as Iran in the 70s).
[ January 25, 2004, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: DockHoliday ]
It appears to me that ther is a fundamental difference between US and most European taxes. The US govt wants people to spend their paycheck to drive the economy. This generates sales tax, payroll taxes, and income taxes. Good for tax revenue. Euro countries put much more emphasis on income taxes, which puts a damper on business investing (i.e. why bother taking the risk of a business venture if the profits are taxed so heavily).
I guarantee that you live better than someone making twice that in the DC area, Boston, LA, San Fran, NYC, etc...
I think you are generalizing.
I have a friend who used to live in Manhattan in a rent controlled 1 bedroom apartment for $2500/month, 500/month parking, 500/month car insurance. Do you think he could live there on only 72k/year? How about raise a family?
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