Ester vs PAO

[HighwayRanger]

Hello All, I'm learning about Ester (V) vs PAO (IV) oils, and would like to know who uses what. Is there a definitive list out there?

All Redline = Ester, group V?
High End Amsoil = Group IV PAO?
All Royal Purple = ?

Any other Esters out there?

Am I wrong in assuming that Ester-based oils keep your engine cleaner than PAOs due to the solvent capability? If they do, wouldn't they be the best?

 

[JAG]

Hi,

The entire formulation (basestocks+additives) is what determines all performance metrics. Because of this, it is NOT true as a rule that ester based oils will keep the engine cleaner than PAO based oils. It is true that on a pure basestock basis that esters have much better solubility than PAO but motor oils obviously aren't just virgin basestocks.

What performance metric are you trying to maximize? Engine cleanliness perhaps?

 

[Bob Woods]

Pure esters will destroy your engine seals as will pure PAO's, synthetic oils area mixture of both.

 

[HighwayRanger]

Jag, I'm just trying to break a tie between two oils, and wondered if the Ester base gives those oils the edge in also keeping the engine cleaner. If the PAO brands compensate with their additives, then it may be moot.

 

[dailydriver]

Pablo, Gary, or anyone;
Which Amsoil engine oils have at least some esters in the base stock mix?? Which one (Amsoil) has the most?
I was always unsure about this (I originally thought they were ONLY upper group 3/PAO basestock mixes). Can you clear up the haze without giving away proprietary info???

 

[Pablo]

They don't give Gary or me proprietary info.

The XL line is the only one that is Group III.

The other synthetic oils are various mixes of Group IV and V. In general the more expensive Amsoil oils contain more esters. And that's the main issue with esters, cost.

 

[buster]

Quote:
In general the more expensive Amsoil oils contain more esters. And that's the main issue with esters, cost.


Very true.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
to keep this very complex Thread in perspective some ExxonMobil lubricants use a significant ester content too.
Delvac 1 5w-40 is but one of them!

Regards
Doug

 

[HighwayRanger]

Pablo, just so I understand. The XL, since it is group III, was made with some petroleum base stock before they monkey with it?

 

[bmwtechguy]

Not sure what you are asking, but a Group III is an ultra-refined and chemically converted petroleum basestock. Is has essentially been so changed chemically from its original state, and it has performance so superior to plain petroleum base oil, that it can now be called synthetic. This is a simplified explanation.
As far as the XL line, I think that it may have started out its life as a mostly group IV, but was later changed to a Group III formulation, probably for several reasons. Still a great oil in my opinion.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: HighwayRanger

Pablo, just so I understand. The XL, since it is group III, was made with some petroleum base stock before they monkey with it?


I'm thinking bmwtechguy answered the question (quite well) not sure I understand the "petroleum base stock before they monkey with it" part. The XL line has no Group I (or Group II) base oil. There really is no motor oil anymore that at least hasn't had the base oil slightly chimpanzeed.

 

[Steve S]

A blend of different bases seems to be the best.

 

[Steve S]

High quality base III oils are incredable with the proper add package . Look at the u.o.a.'s

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Steve S - You are correct. The "new" wave of Group 3 lubricants outperform some of the "old" Group 4 products in some respects

They do this more cost effectively too in the real sense - just simple economics!

I suspect that this is why Amsoil has changed many of their formulations - to keep up!

Regards

 

[HighwayRanger]

You're right Pablo, bmwtechguy did express it better than I did:

"Group III is an ultra-refined and chemically converted petroleum basestock. Is has essentially been so changed chemically from its original state"

I would say that they monkeyed with the petro base, as opposed to laboratory-born molecules......

Thanks!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Steve S - You are correct. The "new" wave of Group 3 lubricants outperform some of the "old" Group 4 products in some respect.


i.e.; Pennzoil Platinum??

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
The other synthetic oils are various mixes of Group IV and V. In general the more expensive Amsoil oils contain more esters. And that's the main issue with esters, cost.


Pablo, do any of them have as high a percentage of esters in the base stock as Red Line, or Motul 300V claim (or are percieved) to have??

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
it is really pertinent to mention that the overall "mix" of the product is more important than a simple ratio of ester v PAO

Pablo's comment that "...the more expensive Amsoil oils contain more esters." can be applied acreoss the board to all Brands

Remember though that the main producer of the various esters is ExxonMobil! Perhaps they keep the best of the best for in-house use!!!

Regards

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Pablo
The other synthetic oils are various mixes of Group IV and V. In general the more expensive Amsoil oils contain more esters. And that's the main issue with esters, cost.


Pablo, do any of them have as high a percentage of esters in the base stock as Red Line, or Motul 300V claim (or are percieved) to have??


NO. Most PAO based. As Doug said so well, it's the balance that creates a good oil. One could have an all ester based oil perform poorly. This is what the chemists do for a living. Play with different ratios of additives and base oils for the best possible product for a specific application.

In Jet engines, only POE's work. So Jet lubes are ester based. Automotive engines are a different story.

 

[Oilgal]

Wow. This thread really answered some questions for me. Now I feel very comfy with my decision to run Valvoline Synpower for my 2nd ARX clean and rinse.

Thank you everybody.