Engine rattle at startup - Toyota REFUSES to fix

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
That is a good start, but you have one more level available to you and that is the CEO's office in Japan.

Not too long ago my wife told me a story about her boss contacting VW in Germany when VW America said they cannot do anything (or maybe it was Mercedes). She was contacted by her dealer within few days apologizing and booking the appointment to fix the issue.

These guys know that the head office knows nothing of North American day to day operations, that's why they can get away with statements like "dealers are separate entities" [censored]. The main head office, whether it's in Japan and Germany can and will force a solution if approached properly.

I agree with you...it is interesting that you brought up VWoA, because the US distributor of VW products is probably the worst of the bunch around the world.

I could believe that contacting VAG in Germany might result in action that solves a problem. The reason why VW is number 1 around the world but sells very few cars in the US isn't because the products are bad, it is because the US distributor VWoA is HORRIBLE and they have been for decades.

 

[The Critic]

How many dealers have you tried?

 

[Doog]

I have had 4 Toyota vehicles and never had a dealer refuse to repair any issue any time. I would see the rep again and show him the TSB then show him the video or keep the car overnight and replicate the cold start issue. If he refuses repair per the TSB then contact Toyota in California.

 

[VVTinme]

Hokiefyd: Unfortunately Fayetteville is a bit far away to roll the dice on a dealer being more responsive.

I've been to two different dealers. The first dealer told me they would have a SE Toyota rep look at it and I was able to duplicate it right in front of him. He then proceeded to tell me that it was operating normally at that time. That was after maybe one-two months of ownership and around 1500 miles. More recently I went to another Toyota dealership where I was told again that it was normal cold-start noise and that it's operating "within spec." They did not care for any sort of logical argument--I made the case that if my car were a Camry, they would be fixing it since the TSB applies to the Camry. Also, the tC is a relatively low-volume car. My gut feeling is that Toyota doesn't care to be proactive about TSBs, and would only release one for the tC if many more people were to complain. Unfortunately that's not likely to happen since even in full force the number of 2nd-generation tC owners is miniscule.

I understand that the TSB might not be applicable to my car, but I would find that to be quite odd since the Toyota TSB applies to all 2011 MY Toyotas with the 1AR-FE and 2AR-FE. Toyota has a similar TSB out for their 1.8L engine as well as for their 3.5L V6; it seems to be a design flaw in their new VVTi system.

The car actually isn't even due yet for it's first oil change. I changed the oil myself at 6 months (according to the severe service schedule) with a genuine Toyota oil filter and genuine Toyota 0W-20 oil since it's looked upon highly here. I did so to remove any metal from the initial break-in period and because I make many short trips which can be hard on the oil.

The oddest thing of all is how the car was behaving before the rattle came to be. Not too long after buying the car it started jolting violently ever other start or so right when the engine turned over. I unfortunately did not have any opportunity to take the car to the dealership before its behavior changed yet again; now instead of jolting when it started it would take longer to crank and I could feel a little reluctance in the way my car was starting. Instead of turning over almost immediately, it would crank for a second and whilst doing so the car would shake just a little bit. When the Toyota representative was looking at the rattle and other issues (none of which he solved I should add) he supposedly also analyzed the starting problem, finding nothing amiss with the car's behavior. I challenged him to find another tC on the lot that started the same way mine did but he seemed disinterested.

My car still starts a little oddly and seems to rattle more aggressively the worse its starting behavior is. This is actually the main reason why I'm pushing so hard (and so incredibly frustrated) to have my car fixed. It's painfully obvious that it isn't just cold-start clatter and instead something actually defective within my motor. I just want Toyota to fix it and stop wasting my time and gas going back and forth to the dealer to no avail.

To add insult to injury, I recently went to the dealer to have them replace the driver's door panel due to a nasty rattle, and they did so--with a scratched one! Now I *have* to go back just to have them replace it again, and hopefully they won't [censored] me about it since I didn't notice the scratch for ~ 2 weeks. (It's not something I could have caused myself.)

 

[meep]

I have asked a dealer before if they'd like to contact the Better Business Bureau, or shall I, and that worked. of course, I was also ready to write that letter to the BBB... it wasn't a threat, and they could tell. it was not a warranty issue/failure but a design flaw, so they were not obligated to repair it via corporate policy.

they had to ship it off somewhere and have the chassis bent to get the rear wheels in alignment.

 

[Bladecutter]

Sounds like the cam phasing part has completely failed.

You have several choices:

1- Keep taking your car back for hard starting, cold start noise, and defective cam phasing issues while driving (call it a lack of power at higher engine speeds compared to a car with the same engine and transmission model), with the dealers refusing to fix the problem, and then give the Lemon Law a try.

2- Find out the contact information to Scion/Toyota of America, and send them a letter/email/video/whatever of the starting noise, and hard starting issue you are having.

3- Buy the new part number from Toyota/Scion, and pay a local mechanic to replace it, and if that cures the issue, send a bill to Scion/Toyota for reimbursement, which they will have to pay.

4- Create a video about the issues you are having, post it on YouTube, then post your issue and the video link on Scion and Toyota's Facebook pages. Other people will reply that they are having similar issues, and Toyota/Scion will contact you to try and control the damage. Make sure you outline how many times you have taken it to your local dealer, and had the regional rep tell you its perfectly fine, yet you have a copy of the TSB, and have all these issues with your brand new car.

Good luck, persistence is going to be your only way to win this issue.

BC.

 

[Nick R]

Sounds like Toyota is having the same cam phaser problem that GM had in the Equinox/Terrain 2.4L.

 

[VVTinme]

I've gone ahead and filed a BBB complaint against Toyota USA. We'll see where this takes me. I'll also be writing a formal complaint to Toyota very shortly.

 

[91344George]

What's stunning about this situation is that my belief is that the OP is being completely up front and honest and not playing any games asking for anything he is not deserving of and most importantly, he did not cause the problem. Yet Toyota and the dealers are blowing him off totally, in the most dismissive way .

Does Toyota not think treatment like this of the customer will not come back to bite them. The internet is a great way to get back at a big company, you can tell everybody about your treatment.

That being said..I would have ALREADY sent the CEO of Toyota Motor USA a snail mail return receipt requested letter stating what the problem is or are recounting the poor handling of them by the dealer and the zone reps and make sure to add that if the problem is not taken care of you will have to use legal recourse to obtain satisfaction.

 

[dkrivosheyev]

I guess it depends a big deal on the regional rep / specific dealer you have to deal with. I had a very faint transmission whine while accelerating between 55 and 60 mph in my 2010 Corolla, and at first my dealer said it was "normal". We even test drove another corolla and it was doing the same thing. I was not satisfied and I called Toyota USA. Within a few days I got a call from my dealer asking to bring the car in for tranny replacement. They did not even send the regional rep down, just replaced the tranny. Unfortunately the new tranny also has this whine, but not as loud, so at this point I am OK. Engine rattle must me a lot more annoying, and I am very suprised that they won't do something for you. Stay on them like others said and you will have the results!

 

[Nick R]

Must be the same kind of problem. Apparently, GM fixed the problem with a combination of replacing the Camshaft Actuators along with a PCM reprogram. But they sound almost identical.

 

[VVTinme]

Originally Posted By: dkrivosheyev
I guess it depends a big deal on the regional rep / specific dealer you have to deal with. I had a very faint transmission whine while accelerating between 55 and 60 mph in my 2010 Corolla, and at first my dealer said it was "normal". We even test drove another corolla and it was doing the same thing. I was not satisfied and I called Toyota USA. Within a few days I got a call from my dealer asking to bring the car in for tranny replacement. They did not even send the regional rep down, just replaced the tranny. Unfortunately the new tranny also has this whine, but not as loud, so at this point I am OK. Engine rattle must me a lot more annoying, and I am very suprised that they won't do something for you. Stay on them like others said and you will have the results!

My transmission makes noise, too, but at this point I'm trying to tackle issues 1-by-1 in order of how long they've existed. My suspension also clunks (!) going over speed bumps. From past experience it seems that bringing up too many issues at once results in nothing being done at all unfortunately.

 

[PRND3L]

Originally Posted By: VVTinme

I understand that the TSB might not be applicable to my car...


Key point. As long as there's no TSB for the Scion, you're just peeing into the wind with the Toyota TSB. If I were you, I'd just keep driving it until/if a more serious failure occurs.


Originally Posted By: VVTinme
The oddest thing of all is how the car was behaving before the rattle came to be. Not too long after buying the car it started jolting violently ever other start or so right when the engine turned over. I unfortunately did not have any opportunity to take the car to the dealership before its behavior changed yet again;


Another key, and most unfortunate point to your story, since you have no proof/documentation of the jolting and cannot now replicate it.

Originally Posted By: VVTinme
It's painfully obvious that it isn't just cold-start clatter and instead something actually defective within my motor.


It may be painfully obvious to you, but not so much to others. Making your own recording is crucial, because like hatterasguy posted above, that sample video really doesn't sound bad or like much at all.

And if in fact is isn't cold-start clatter, and is something entirely different, as hokiefyd suggested above, then the TSB is irrelevant.

Originally Posted By: VVTinme
To add insult to injury, I recently went to the dealer to have them replace the driver's door panel due to a nasty rattle, and they did so--with a scratched one! Now I *have* to go back just to have them replace it again, and hopefully they won't [censored] me about it since I didn't notice the scratch for ~ 2 weeks. (It's not something I could have caused myself.)


Good luck proving that the replaced panel was already scratched when they installed it. While you may not have caused it, not noticing it for ~2 weeks doesn't bode well for you. Anybody could have caused it via a door ding, etc.

IMO you've got a long uphill battle to get the results you're after. Some of the other posts above seem entirely too optimistic.

It sucks you got an apparent lemon. Try to maintain a cool head and not let it get the best of you.

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: PRND3L


that sample video really doesn't sound bad or like much at all.


Huh? It sounds horribly BROKEN !

 

[VVTinme]

PRND3L: I appreciate your candor. About the door panel: The plastics Toyota is using on the new tC and (others) are somewhat unique. If you simply run your finger along them it leaves a whitish streak. That's why I didn't realize the panel was scratched: I've stopped paying any attention to white blemishes on the door panels because typically they come right off with a little water. I was standing next to my car showing it to a friend when it caught my eye that the door panel was actually scratched. Also, it's an interior door panel. No door ding would cause it to be scratched inside the car the way it is, and when I get in and out of the car I don't rub up against the panel either. It's definitely damage from the dealership.

 

[91344George]

@VVTinme:

I almost get the impression that this dealer is deliberately causing other issues to get you to "go away" , this wouldn't be the first time I have seen this happen, again you need to contact the CEO of Toyota Motor USA and nip this situation in the bud. Yeah I'm a yankee, and I wouldn't be allowing this kind of ineptitude as long as you have.

DO NOT CALL Toyota Motor USA, send a receipt requested snail mail state your issues as concisely as you can and tell them what you want them actually correct to YOUR SATISFACTION.

 

[PRND3L]

Originally Posted By: VVTinme
it's an interior door panel.


10-4, I misunderstood thinking it was an exterior panel.

 

[PRND3L]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: PRND3L


that sample video really doesn't sound bad or like much at all.


Huh? It sounds horribly BROKEN !

link OP provided


If you can tell that it's horribly broken from the 2 seconds of actual engine audio, I salute you.

 

[CBR.worm]

Hmmm.. I should post how my engines sound at a cold start. My timing chains make more noise for the first few seconds at start than anything in that TSB video.

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: Nick R




This I'm sure is what VVTinme is actually hearing.

That is BROKEN.