E-85 hurts more than it helps

[Shannow]

Been thinking more about why govts would be so much in favour of grain based ethanol, when there's scarcely a positive energy balance.

Maybe it's economic "busy work"...you know that stuff that Primary School teachers use in the week before Christmas...traces this, cut that out, paste it, and let me get on with end of year paper work.

Rather than drilling, refining, and selling, which employs only (say) 4 people, maybe they want all of the extra hands that ethanol puts into the loop to bolster the money go round.

Beats paying people to dig holes and fill them in to stimulate the money go round.

 

[swalve]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
I think E-85 vehicles hurt more than help the U.S. They not only get worse gas mileage than a gas vehicle, but it is hurting food production and food prices by taking corn out of the food stream. ( Corn is in a unbelievable amount of products )

What is your opinion? Helps or Hurts?
Originally Posted By: RTexasF
It is a political joke at best. Feed the people not the cars.


If the prices of grain are going up, why is the government still paying farmers to not plant grain?

Ethanol has its place. Maybe it's not an ultimate solution, but we gotta try something.

 

[swalve]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Been thinking more about why govts would be so much in favour of grain based ethanol, when there's scarcely a positive energy balance.


Even if it's a little positive, it's still a gain. If you had a machine where you put in $10 and got $11 in return, would you not do it because the gain is only a little positive?

 

[beanoil]

The lone ranger.... Helps. I run my company ride on E85 exclusively. It is an FFV.. 07 Grand Caravan to be exact. The pump at the Mobil station does not have the usual "Minimum 70% Ethanol content" sticker. It says "85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline for use in Flex Fuel vehicles only" . End result... A slight decrease in mileage, about 12% by my calculations, and a savings of 10 to 15 cents over a gallon of regular unleaded. But, 85% of what I'm burning isn't going to OPEC, but staying right here in the states. Drivability is the same. It starts, and runs normally. The oil does not turn black, but stays honey colored over a 6000 mile OCI. Frankly, I'm sold, and am anxious for cellulosic and bio fuel to crank up.

 

[oilyriser]

There's an enormous energy gain renovating old homes to use less energy. But there are no ADM's of insulation to manipulate the politicians into encouraging it. So we get ethanol, soil erosion, and nitrate pollution of the oceans, and dying fish.

 

[wileyE]

Politicians like it because it buys lobby money from the farm states. Your food bill doesn't like it because it competes with fuel for farm land. Some farmers don't like it because the amount of water they use to make eth is now cutting into their irrigation ration. hvaing the eth plant local sounded like a good idea to them at the time.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

E-85 fuel hurts us all. Lower mpg, higher costs at the grocery store, not to mention the farmers and the cattlemen.....

 

[Mustang2008Z]

Everybody could help the situation by writing to companies like Safety-Klean, Evergreen, etc., and ask that they sell their re-refined motor oil to retailers and to the public rather than to the governments like federal,state,county, and city governments. We need to re-use the re-refined motor oil as long as it meets GF-4 and soon, GF-5 ILSAC Rules and has API Approval SM or the next level. We would be able to undercut OPEC even with their decreased production of crude oil. That would end their monopoly and then we could use their oil production to our advantage (USA Advantage). Please think about it........

 

[daleferd]

Ethanol can be made from other sources than just corn, like sugar cane, sugar beets, mesquite tree pods, kelp and many others. The excuse that e-85 is using food for fuel is bunk since the byproducts can be fed back to livestock. Would you rather send your money overseas or keep it in the us economy?
Ethanol isn't a short term fix or long term one either, it's more like a step to another level. If we could harness all the [censored] that comes out of a politician we could power the world for a thousand years.

 

[Rolf]

Originally Posted By: beanoil
.... and a savings of 10 to 15 cents over a gallon of regular unleaded. .....


Only because of government subsidies and tax breaks.



.

 

[Rolf]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
I think E-85 vehicles hurt more than help the U.S. They not only get worse gas mileage than a gas vehicle, but it is hurting food production and food prices by taking corn out of the food stream. ( Corn is in a unbelievable amount of products )

What is your opinion? Helps or Hurts?


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_...ises_tech_stuff

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/col...sumption_column

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/col...must_die_column



.

 

[crinkles]

the only way we can push through the "ethanol barrier" is to push through it, so demand becomes enough to stimulate more economical and better ways of producing it than making it from animal feedstocks.

If no one buys it, it will never progress to a better place due to lack of demand.

 

[dan3952]

Ethanol is a political solution and not a sensible one. The energy required (by burning fossil fuels) is as much or more than is in the ethanol by the time it gets to your gas tank.

Also it's not as simple as the US constraining world food supplies, the type of corn they grow for ethanol is not the same that most people eat. African countries typically use this corn for animal feed (from Pet Bedard at Car and Driver, an ex-farmer)

Originally Posted By: ZZman
I think E-85 vehicles hurt more than help the U.S. They not only get worse gas mileage than a gas vehicle, but it is hurting food production and food prices by taking corn out of the food stream. ( Corn is in a unbelievable amount of products )

What is your opinion? Helps or Hurts?

 

[Shannow]

Taking up land that could grow food is only a tiny step removed from taking up food in the first place.

 

[MC5W20]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Been thinking more about why govts would be so much in favour of grain based ethanol, when there's scarcely a positive energy balance.

Maybe it's economic "busy work"...you know that stuff that Primary School teachers use in the week before Christmas...traces this, cut that out, paste it, and let me get on with end of year paper work.

Rather than drilling, refining, and selling, which employs only (say) 4 people, maybe they want all of the extra hands that ethanol puts into the loop to bolster the money go round.

Beats paying people to dig holes and fill them in to stimulate the money go round.


It all depends on what you believe. There are study's to support both sides of the issue. Some studies are just baloney. Some studies are well detailed and done properly. Some studies are hastily prepared and leave out a lot of the factors that should be included.

It depends on whether you actually read these studies or just believe what is spoon fed to you from the media. I have read a few studies. I have glanced at a few others also.

I think the true strategy is to have:

1) A source of fuel from a renewable resource
2) A source of fuel that is "made in the usa"
3) A source of fuel that keeps money in the usa
4) A source of fuel where the technology can be improved upon and become even more beneficial
5) No matter what a study says, you cannot deny the fact that corn, or any other plant, uses CO2 while growing

A few other things to consider is, engines that are designed to run on ethanol and ethanol only are very efficient. When you have an engine which is "flex fuel" and must run on combinations of gas and ethanol a lot of efficiency is lost.

Also, when transporting ethanol long distances from point of manufacture a lot of efficiency is lost also.

E85 doesn't hurt, it just isn't a magical solution (yet) to a fuel that has been in existence for over a 100 years.

Honestly, what do you all think E85 will be capable of after 100 years of development?

 

[MC5W20]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Taking up land that could grow food is only a tiny step removed from taking up food in the first place.


All the corn that is used in ethanol production comes out at the end of the process as Distillers Grain, which can be fed to cattle, pigs, turkeys, chicken's, etc...

The corn used for ethanol is not used for human consumption. So I think you should know the facts before you make yourself look ignorant.

 

[MC5W20]

Originally Posted By: Rolf
Originally Posted By: beanoil
.... and a savings of 10 to 15 cents over a gallon of regular unleaded. .....


Only because of government subsidies and tax breaks.



.


Yes, Brazil does the same thing also. Except, they are a lot smarter then most in the USA. They developed Ethanol as a fuel in thier country a full 20 years before the USA. They now do not import oil for fuel use. While all economies are struggling now, look at theirs, it is taking a lesser hit then the rest of the world. Why? They don't export money to buy fuel. Plus, the efficency of their ethanol plants put the rest of the world to shame as they have a lot of experience at it.

Way to go USA. Get beat by a third world coutry.

The way I see it. Make as much ethanol as we can, and if some Arab thinks his oil is worth a hundred buck for a barrel, the we'll charge them a hundred buck for a bushel of wheat.

The fuel vs. food debate is lame in my book. If there was a gas shortage next week the first people to cry would be the ones complaining about fuel vs. food.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MC5W20
So I think you should know the facts before you make yourself look ignorant.


Better ignorant than an arrogant git !!!

 

[Shannow]

BTW, I have nothing whatsoever against ethanol, just grain based stuff.

As to where it will be in 100 years, I don't think we will be running IC engines in cars on it (or anything else) in 100 years.

Cellulose based ethanol, ethanol from waste, sugar based (like Brazil have successfully done)...just grain based makes little sense unless you are trying for a particular taste, rather than fuel.

And as to the residue being used for animal food...how of our meat animals are specifically adapted to eating grain/mash ?

Which diet gives them the most healthy (natural) fatty acid profile ?

 

[MC5W20]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
BTW, I have nothing whatsoever against ethanol, just grain based stuff.

As to where it will be in 100 years, I don't think we will be running IC engines in cars on it (or anything else) in 100 years.

Cellulose based ethanol, ethanol from waste, sugar based (like Brazil have successfully done)...just grain based makes little sense unless you are trying for a particular taste, rather than fuel.

And as to the residue being used for animal food...how of our meat animals are specifically adapted to eating grain/mash ?

Which diet gives them the most healthy (natural) fatty acid profile ?


Hence, my comments on knowing the facts. I am not being arrogant, just pointing out you don't know what your talking about. The information is on the internet, it is very easy to find, and is a lot better reading then BITOG.

Grain based ethanol is a great thing. There is a surpluss of grain on the market and ethanol is a result of that.