Drain Filter If I Reuse It?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Some people here are so A/R they claim to let the sump drain for hours, or even overnight, to get the very last possible drop of old oil out, so leaving a filter with 0.25 of a quart of old oil in it would be unthinkable.



Exactly, now imagine a filter that holds close to a qt. of oil. No thanks.

Talking about A/R lets not forget people who pour a qt. or two of clean oil in after the overnight drain and let it drain out hoping to wash the trapped dirty oil that doesn't come out when you pull the drain plug. I seriously doubt they're using a filter twice.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
New filter every oil change for me. This is like the guys who pull spark plugs to look them and reinstall. The labor to remove means new part put back on for me be it an oil filter or spark plug.

It makes sense if each plug is $15 and it's an inline engine with easy access. Periodically checking the plugs will also reduce the chance of the threads seizing.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: raytseng
don't unscrew. You're more likely to mess something up with the seal.

There's also more than another 1/4quart of oil hiding around in the other galleys and parts of your engine.

Plus, if the oil is so "bad" then you've already been using "bad" oil in your car for the last portion of your interval. You should be changing the oil before it gets that bad.

1/4 quart? Usually more than that. My wife's Civic owners manual says a 4.4 quart total capacity with 3.2 quarts change w/o a new filter and 3.4 quarts change with a new filter. Apparently there's a lot of space in that engine for the oil to hide, even with a tiny overall capacity.


That's a 0.2 qt delta, which is essentially 1/4 quart.

I was responding to the comment about 1/4 quart in the galleys, etc.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
A new filter every 7500 miles is not exactly wasteful. Id rather have clean oil and a new filter than worry about the negligable increase in efficiency of reusing an old one.


That's the way I feel. Some filters hold close to a qt. of oil like my E-150. That's almost 1 qt. of dirty oil mixing with the oil that doesn't come out of the engine because of the design. That could be 20% or more of dirty oil mixing in with fresh clean oil as soon as I turn the key. I'd rather just change the oil and the filter and call it a day. Obviously opinions vary, that's mine FWIW.

That's the traditional belief that used motor oil is "dirty" and that the oil is degrading as soon as it's driven off from an oil change. Unless it's depleted, the oil is fine. You just added new oil that's most of the total capacity, and that's enough to replenish the additives and restart the cycle.

I'd note that there's testing that indicates that metal wear is highest right after an oil change, and it levels out as the oil ages. As long as the anti wear additives aren't depleted or the oil isn't subject to severe conditions like excessive dust contamination, you're golden.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w



I'd note that there's testing that indicates that metal wear is highest right after an oil change, and it levels out as the oil ages.


I read that study. I also read that fresh oil might be doing a lot of cleaning when its first added and could be the reason why metal wear is the highest right after an oil change. Some believe it is cleaning up what the "dirty" oil left behind. Both are interesting topics for sure.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: y_p_w



I'd note that there's testing that indicates that metal wear is highest right after an oil change, and it levels out as the oil ages.


I read that study. I also read that fresh oil might be doing a lot of cleaning when its first added and could be the reason why metal wear is the highest right after an oil change. Some believe it is cleaning up what the "dirty" oil left behind. Both are interesting topics for sure.


I remember reading Usenet posts by Edward Kollin, who used to run Exxon's Advanced Fuels and Lubricants testing lab. He noted that wear tended to be higher in maybe the first 1000 miles after an oil change, and he attributed this to the required time for the ZDDP antiwear additives to heat activate.

Quote:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.autos.makers.saturn/matfrqy9psM/GbLFOkQZ9U4J

As for this discussion on oil change intervals, I have seen good oils
fail at 1500 miles and average oils run to 12,000 miles before failing.
It is certainly equipment and duty cycle related. I recommend 5-7k mile
oil change intervals for most people. If towing or high idle time this
can be reduced. One interesting point is that fresh oil will have a
higher wear rate until the ZDDP antiwear is activated(oxidized). The
wear rates of some 60-70 oils that I have tested improves over the first
1000 miles or so.

Edward B. Kollin
exxon Research and Engineering Advanced Fuels and Lubes Group

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: LotI
I vote 2 filters per OCI! And keep it to 3,000 miles
Blasphemy!

Or is that "heresy"? I never remember which is which...


Blasphemously heretical covers it all

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: y_p_w



I'd note that there's testing that indicates that metal wear is highest right after an oil change, and it levels out as the oil ages.


I read that study. I also read that fresh oil might be doing a lot of cleaning when its first added and could be the reason why metal wear is the highest right after an oil change. Some believe it is cleaning up what the "dirty" oil left behind. Both are interesting topics for sure.


I remember reading Usenet posts by Edward Kollin, who used to run Exxon's Advanced Fuels and Lubricants testing lab. He noted that wear tended to be higher in maybe the first 1000 miles after an oil change, and he attributed this to the required time for the ZDDP antiwear additives to heat activate.

Quote:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.autos.makers.saturn/matfrqy9psM/GbLFOkQZ9U4J

As for this discussion on oil change intervals, I have seen good oils
fail at 1500 miles and average oils run to 12,000 miles before failing.
It is certainly equipment and duty cycle related. I recommend 5-7k mile
oil change intervals for most people. If towing or high idle time this
can be reduced. One interesting point is that fresh oil will have a
higher wear rate until the ZDDP antiwear is activated(oxidized). The
wear rates of some 60-70 oils that I have tested improves over the first
1000 miles or so.

Edward B. Kollin
exxon Research and Engineering Advanced Fuels and Lubes Group


I read that too. After all the reading I did, and processing of information I decided in my applications I'd rather get that extra 15-20% +/- of oil out of the sump when I change the oil. The most compelling information to me was the slight spike in wear is the fresh oil doing some additional cleaning. Again how we process data, and our opinions vary.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: y_p_w



I'd note that there's testing that indicates that metal wear is highest right after an oil change, and it levels out as the oil ages.


I read that study. I also read that fresh oil might be doing a lot of cleaning when its first added and could be the reason why metal wear is the highest right after an oil change. Some believe it is cleaning up what the "dirty" oil left behind. Both are interesting topics for sure.


I remember reading Usenet posts by Edward Kollin, who used to run Exxon's Advanced Fuels and Lubricants testing lab. He noted that wear tended to be higher in maybe the first 1000 miles after an oil change, and he attributed this to the required time for the ZDDP antiwear additives to heat activate.

Quote:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.autos.makers.saturn/matfrqy9psM/GbLFOkQZ9U4J

As for this discussion on oil change intervals, I have seen good oils
fail at 1500 miles and average oils run to 12,000 miles before failing.
It is certainly equipment and duty cycle related. I recommend 5-7k mile
oil change intervals for most people. If towing or high idle time this
can be reduced. One interesting point is that fresh oil will have a
higher wear rate until the ZDDP antiwear is activated(oxidized). The
wear rates of some 60-70 oils that I have tested improves over the first
1000 miles or so.

Edward B. Kollin
exxon Research and Engineering Advanced Fuels and Lubes Group


I read that too. After all the reading I did, and processing of information I decided in my applications I'd rather get that extra 15-20% +/- of oil out of the sump when I change the oil. The most compelling information to me was the slight spike in wear is the fresh oil doing some additional cleaning. Again how we process data, and our opinions vary.

All I'll say is that we've got a guy running the testing lab of a multibillion dollar petrochemical giant with access to all sorts of oil technology. He's not only testing his own company's products, but that of his competitors. I would think his lab would also be testing formulas that may or may not go into production and that they even adjust things like ZDDP, TBN, and detergent levels to see the effect of each contribution. That he attributed the wear to ramping up ZDDP activation tells me that it's not necessarily cleaning going on. It could very well be that reducing the level of activated antiwear additives means the ZDDP that bonds (to replace depleted molecules) to the surfaces is reduced or that the reduced concentration of activated antiwear additives in the oil washes it off the surfaces until it's saturated again.

 

[demarpaint]

Ok. Hasn't ZDDP content in oil been coming down over the years? I'm not totally disputing what he said, I just think there's more to it that's all.

IIRC Mr. Kollin's report dates back to the late 1990's when ZDDP was used a lot more in oil. Some of the articles I read were more recent.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Ok. Hasn't ZDDP content in oil been coming down over the years? I'm not totally disputing what he said, I just think there's more to it that's all.

I just think "increased cleaning" (if it happens) isn't necessarily desirable. There are owners taking motor oil right to the manufacturer's limits and checking for deposits and varnish. While the oil may look darker, it's not necessarily a "dirtier" system provided the detergents aren't depleted. I'd rather be getting a steady cleaning than some sort of increase with fresh oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Ok. Hasn't ZDDP content in oil been coming down over the years? I'm not totally disputing what he said, I just think there's more to it that's all.

I just think "increased cleaning" (if it happens) isn't necessarily desirable. There are owners taking motor oil right to the manufacturer's limits and checking for deposits and varnish. While the oil may look darker, it's not necessarily a "dirtier" system provided the detergents aren't depleted. I'd rather be getting a steady cleaning than some sort of increase with fresh oil.


I agree, although it might be a fact of life. The only thing I have to back it up is what I've read for whatever that's worth. In the perfect world oil is doing its job right up until the end of its useful life. The problem is people push it past that point, have problems, and then complain.

 

[stchman]

To the OP:

Just change the oil filter every time you change the oil unless the oil filter is in a near impossible place to reach. If that's the case, use a Fram Ultra as they are supposed to be able to go 15K miles.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
While I've removed and replaced filters, in one instance four times, it's risky. The tiny fraction of oil left in the filter really isn't an issue weighty enough to risk the entire engine over. If you are going to run a filter two OCIs, IMO, safest to leave the filter in place.

That about covers it. That said, I too admit to removing a BD+ 3323 when I ran it two ocis in a 3.0L Accord. With it's thread end up orientation a decent amount of oil drains from the engine when the filter is removed, it seems to be much more than what is left in the filter itself. Worked out fine. But, a compromised sealing gasket is the biggest risk with removal and reinstall imo.

Best practice if you're going to do a two oci fci is leave the filter as is.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: JerryBob
I have been reading that some filter can do 15k, and get more efficient in that time. However 15k is at least twice the OCI that I want to do.

If I choose to reuse a filter, should I at least unscrew it and drain the old oil out?

On both my vehicles, the filter mounts mouth-up, and probably has at least 1/4 quart of oil in it. I'd like to get rid of that oil if it is advisable.



"One Filter, One OCI!"

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Ok. Hasn't ZDDP content in oil been coming down over the years? I'm not totally disputing what he said, I just think there's more to it that's all.

I just think "increased cleaning" (if it happens) isn't necessarily desirable. There are owners taking motor oil right to the manufacturer's limits and checking for deposits and varnish. While the oil may look darker, it's not necessarily a "dirtier" system provided the detergents aren't depleted. I'd rather be getting a steady cleaning than some sort of increase with fresh oil.


I agree, although it might be a fact of life. The only thing I have to back it up is what I've read for whatever that's worth. In the perfect world oil is doing its job right up until the end of its useful life. The problem is people push it past that point, have problems, and then complain.

I do remember hearing issues about VW "pump duse" cam wear. A lot of owners were changing the oil often because that's what they've always done with their other cars. They were hesitant to go the high oil change intervals, or even half way there. Then they dstarted getting reports of cams wearing prematurely. Some of the thoughts were that the detergent wash down was happening with new oil, but I think it might have had something to do with antiwear additive activation cycle being interrupted too often.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Ok. Hasn't ZDDP content in oil been coming down over the years? I'm not totally disputing what he said, I just think there's more to it that's all.

I just think "increased cleaning" (if it happens) isn't necessarily desirable. There are owners taking motor oil right to the manufacturer's limits and checking for deposits and varnish. While the oil may look darker, it's not necessarily a "dirtier" system provided the detergents aren't depleted. I'd rather be getting a steady cleaning than some sort of increase with fresh oil.


I agree, although it might be a fact of life. The only thing I have to back it up is what I've read for whatever that's worth. In the perfect world oil is doing its job right up until the end of its useful life. The problem is people push it past that point, have problems, and then complain.

I do remember hearing issues about VW "pump duse" cam wear. A lot of owners were changing the oil often because that's what they've always done with their other cars. They were hesitant to go the high oil change intervals, or even half way there. Then they dstarted getting reports of cams wearing prematurely. Some of the thoughts were that the detergent wash down was happening with new oil, but I think it might have had something to do with antiwear additive activation cycle being interrupted too often.


It could have been a bad batch of cams too. I think I read that somewhere, but I won't swear to it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
I have been reading that some filter can do 15k, and get more efficient in that time. However 15k is at least twice the OCI that I want to do.

If I choose to reuse a filter, should I at least unscrew it and drain the old oil out?

On both my vehicles, the filter mounts mouth-up, and probably has at least 1/4 quart of oil in it. I'd like to get rid of that oil if it is advisable.



"One Filter, One OCI!"


What took you so long!?

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
I have been reading that some filter can do 15k, and get more efficient in that time. However 15k is at least twice the OCI that I want to do.

If I choose to reuse a filter, should I at least unscrew it and drain the old oil out?

On both my vehicles, the filter mounts mouth-up, and probably has at least 1/4 quart of oil in it. I'd like to get rid of that oil if it is advisable.



"One Filter, One OCI!"


Your just spamming at this point with your wasteful ideology.

Enjoy the extra wear from fresh filter pores letting stuff roam free in your engine.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: JerryBob
I have been reading that some filter can do 15k, and get more efficient in that time. However 15k is at least twice the OCI that I want to do.

If I choose to reuse a filter, should I at least unscrew it and drain the old oil out?

On both my vehicles, the filter mounts mouth-up, and probably has at least 1/4 quart of oil in it. I'd like to get rid of that oil if it is advisable.



"One Filter, One OCI!"


Your just spamming at this point with your wasteful ideology.

Enjoy the extra wear from fresh filter pores letting stuff roam free in your engine.

I don't care for Spam. Too many filler meats.

If it bothers you that much why not just skip over my comments and use your "wasteful ideology" else where?

I would think there are millions of engines out there in the world that have and will continue to last just as long or longer by changing the oil filter every OCI.
Just for you, "One Filter, One OCI!"