Delvac 1300 Q for George
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Dragboat,
George will have to answer on the virgin oil numbers, but I have some numbers on used Delvac 1300S 15W40.
Oil Analysis done by both AvLube and Blackstone. Both sets were so close, I'm only giving AvLube's numbers.
8K miles on oil, 66K on truck (from memory) Ford PSD with Motorcraft filter. The following are the only numbers I copied down. Owner-unknown to me.
Boron---33
Moly----38
Mag-----387
Phos----1500
Zinc----1591
Calcium-2437
Hope this helps your curiosity until George answers.
George will have to answer on the virgin oil numbers, but I have some numbers on used Delvac 1300S 15W40.
Oil Analysis done by both AvLube and Blackstone. Both sets were so close, I'm only giving AvLube's numbers.
8K miles on oil, 66K on truck (from memory) Ford PSD with Motorcraft filter. The following are the only numbers I copied down. Owner-unknown to me.
Boron---33
Moly----38
Mag-----387
Phos----1500
Zinc----1591
Calcium-2437
Hope this helps your curiosity until George answers.
Delvac1300s was just reformulated in the last few months so if the sample is from earlier it is not indicative of the new ci formulation.
Ben,
Sample taken 10/02, so it is iffy as they were shipping the new CI prior as I understand it. Still looks like a good OTC oil. Sorry, not my truck or I could give better details.
I spent over 2 hours looking at oil analysis results on PSD's. The 15W40 oils were Motorcraft, Shell Rotella T, Shell Synthetic, Delo 400, LE 8800 (Lubrication Engineers) and Amsoil. Also 5W30 HDD Amsoil and 5W40 Delvac I. The only oil that had moly was the Delvac 1300S. Now they have 2 with moly as my Schaeffer's 15W40 will be added by the Admin.
[ November 24, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
Sample taken 10/02, so it is iffy as they were shipping the new CI prior as I understand it. Still looks like a good OTC oil. Sorry, not my truck or I could give better details.
I spent over 2 hours looking at oil analysis results on PSD's. The 15W40 oils were Motorcraft, Shell Rotella T, Shell Synthetic, Delo 400, LE 8800 (Lubrication Engineers) and Amsoil. Also 5W30 HDD Amsoil and 5W40 Delvac I. The only oil that had moly was the Delvac 1300S. Now they have 2 with moly as my Schaeffer's 15W40 will be added by the Admin.
[ November 24, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
I see on the Mobil site where it too pumps like a API 10wt but always wondered about metallic detergents in a gas motor. Will they polish the bore over time? I can see where the diesel ring package would make up for a polished bore over a gas ring but am I way off on this? Is a metallic detergent friendly to gas motors ?
[ December 06, 2002, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
[ December 06, 2002, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Dragboat, metallic detergent and antiwear additives prevent bore polishing, not cause it.
We have used some Exotics in the past for Racing motors and something was said about the metalic adds polishing the bore.
I see differences in ring tension between gas motors and large diesels and I think the diesel rings are much higher tension than a gas motor and could handle a polished bore better.Plus if a big diesel used a few quarts of oil it would still not be low on oil.
When I think polished bore I think carbon type and dirt abrasives in contaminated oil that polishes these cylinders. When I think metalic adds used in a gas motor designed for diesels even though it might have a sj or sl classification I see these as fleet oils,,not really street gas motor oil intended for the average consumer and car engine.
Yep I saw where Mobil states this additive helps prevent bore polishing but is not a metallic blowing around in a crankcase a potential abrasive? Any conventional detergent/dispersant will help reduce bore polishing by function of design but are the metalics friendly to a gas motor over the course of say 150k?
Can anyone else describe the pros and cons on this metalic additive used in a gas passenger car over the long haul,not just a fleet oil used to reduce inventory ?
[ November 26, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
I see differences in ring tension between gas motors and large diesels and I think the diesel rings are much higher tension than a gas motor and could handle a polished bore better.Plus if a big diesel used a few quarts of oil it would still not be low on oil.
When I think polished bore I think carbon type and dirt abrasives in contaminated oil that polishes these cylinders. When I think metalic adds used in a gas motor designed for diesels even though it might have a sj or sl classification I see these as fleet oils,,not really street gas motor oil intended for the average consumer and car engine.
Yep I saw where Mobil states this additive helps prevent bore polishing but is not a metallic blowing around in a crankcase a potential abrasive? Any conventional detergent/dispersant will help reduce bore polishing by function of design but are the metalics friendly to a gas motor over the course of say 150k?
Can anyone else describe the pros and cons on this metalic additive used in a gas passenger car over the long haul,not just a fleet oil used to reduce inventory ?
[ November 26, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Piston rings are made for combustion pressure to get behind the rings and make them seal tighter. That's one of the reasons diesels that are idled for long periods have such dirty oil so soon--excessive blowby during those idle periods. Carbon in the compression ring groove also causes the additional blowby. If Neutra 131 or Auto-Rx actually removes this carbon, they're really worth using.
Ken
Ken
Dragboat, keep on mind the same additives used in gas spark engines are used in diesel oil as well. Calcium, magnesium, zinc, moly, phosphorus are all metalic additives.
Quote:
"Piston rings are made for combustion pressure to get behind the rings and make them seal tighter."
Actually a gas motor rely's on ring tension to seal.Some have more tension than others. Now a race piston ie a NHRA Pro Stock class motor uses a gas ported piston design which helps ring seal on those 14.1 and up compression motors.
Does Diesel engines use a gas ported piston ? Talking about the big rig motors not the engines used in pick up trucks
"Piston rings are made for combustion pressure to get behind the rings and make them seal tighter."
Actually a gas motor rely's on ring tension to seal.Some have more tension than others. Now a race piston ie a NHRA Pro Stock class motor uses a gas ported piston design which helps ring seal on those 14.1 and up compression motors.
Does Diesel engines use a gas ported piston ? Talking about the big rig motors not the engines used in pick up trucks
dragboat, I thought some newer gas designs were using compression to assist ring seal? (diff pressures between top and 2nd ring) Pretty sure the LS1 was one of these along with some Japanese designs?
David
I have been led to believe through reading Calcium Phenates and Calcium Sulphonates are organics which are not Metallics like the inorganic ZDDP's and Moly Disulphides/Disulphates.
I now tend to believe in a perfect motor with no blowby " like there is one
Molakule, any thoughts, corrections on this ?
[ December 05, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Uhh, Look on a periodic table. Calcium is a metal. Once again. ZINC does not lead to bore polishing. It is a AW additive that prevents it. Otherwise engines ran on any diesel oil or amsoil, schaeffers etc would be burning oil like crazy from mirror like bores.
Ben a couple things here,,when I post I don't tend to write a small NOVEL and when I reply I take time to read a post I am replying to,,,,now to explain my post I beleive that over the course of 100k miles a oil with 500 thousand PPM of ZDDP would tend to polish a bore before a Calcium Sulphonate or a Calcium Phenate would/ can you now see the jest of this ?
Periodic table ? Post something from one about those two Ca's,,a current table please
A polished bore although undesireable does NOT depict a oil burner all times,,seen too many motors pulled down in my life.If any motor is ran long enough the bore will polish from wear and debris in suspension from blowby and ingested through the induction,,some motors from reversion
No one has yet to post signifigant information on these so called metallic detergents.
I will get some off forum help for my question and post the answers
[ December 06, 2002, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Periodic table ? Post something from one about those two Ca's,,a current table please
A polished bore although undesireable does NOT depict a oil burner all times,,seen too many motors pulled down in my life.If any motor is ran long enough the bore will polish from wear and debris in suspension from blowby and ingested through the induction,,some motors from reversion
No one has yet to post signifigant information on these so called metallic detergents.
I will get some off forum help for my question and post the answers
[ December 06, 2002, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Ok indeed it looks as if some detergents are made from salt metallics but Lubrizol thinks these detergents acts more like dispersents
Quote:
" Although these compounds are commonly called detergents their functions appears to be the dispersing of the particulate matter cleaning up existing dirt and debri. Therefore it is more appropriate to catagorize them as dispersents.
Then they continue
Dispersants:
A major development in the additive field was the discovery and use of ashless dispersants. These materials may be categorized into two broad types: high-molecular weight polymeric dispersants used to formulate multigrade oils and lower molecular weight additives for use where viscosity modification is not necessary. These additives are much more effective than the metallic types in controlling sludge and varnish deposits that result from intermittent and low-temperature gasoline engine operation)))))
Now I still stand "although possibly wrong about some metallics" a fleet oil is not best for a gasoline motor.
Use a HD oil in a diesel,a PCMO in a gas motor is still my opinion and it appears Lubrizol backs this claim up with the above
[ December 06, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Quote:
" Although these compounds are commonly called detergents their functions appears to be the dispersing of the particulate matter cleaning up existing dirt and debri. Therefore it is more appropriate to catagorize them as dispersents.
Then they continue
Dispersants:
A major development in the additive field was the discovery and use of ashless dispersants. These materials may be categorized into two broad types: high-molecular weight polymeric dispersants used to formulate multigrade oils and lower molecular weight additives for use where viscosity modification is not necessary. These additives are much more effective than the metallic types in controlling sludge and varnish deposits that result from intermittent and low-temperature gasoline engine operation)))))
Now I still stand "although possibly wrong about some metallics" a fleet oil is not best for a gasoline motor.
Use a HD oil in a diesel,a PCMO in a gas motor is still my opinion and it appears Lubrizol backs this claim up with the above
[ December 06, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Then dont use amsoil or any other premium oil for that matter as they all have high levels of mettalic additives. I really dont see how you equate bore polishing with metallic additives. Zinc would have avery hard time polishing anything as it is a very soft metal.
[ December 09, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: ben walker ]
[ December 09, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: ben walker ]
They might be using a gas acummulator groove in the piston like this ?
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/page12.htm
I have not seen the newer factory pistons but the factories don't make them anyway .Probable many differences in whats used these days,so it's a who knows type thing for be but I still don't think all the Si shown in analysis comes from dirt and anti foaming agents and especially the seals in newer engines
[ December 08, 2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
But we're not talking about the metal, zinc. We're talking about zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate or zinc diaryl dithiophosphate. That is NOT zinc.
We're not talking about molybdenum. We're talking about Molybdenum Trialkyldithiocarbamate (or molybdenum disulfide in gear oil and grease). This is not molybdenum, the metal.
The same thing for the salts of calcium, and antimony, and whatever else is used. They are not metals. Sure, a chemist will call them metallic salts, some organic, some inorganic, but they are not metals.
Sodium is a metal. Sodium chloride is not a metal. Sodium chloride is harmful inside an engine, while zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate is very beneficial in ways. Both are metallic salts which means a lot but only in context. This is my point.
Ken
[ December 08, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
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