Cummins ISL High Iron Advice

I

ISL9er

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Sep 1, 2021
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Looking at purchasing a used motorhome with a 2009 Cummins ISL 425 that has right at 52,000 miles and is in what I would call above average shape. Not perfect but much nicer than anything else we've looked at in that vintage. Kept in an insulated garage, always connected to shore power, all "house" systems are in excellent shape and there's a stack of maintenance records for everything pertaining to the RV side of this thing. They’ve always had a warranty on it so as something broke, they had it repaired or replaced.

Curiously, there are relatively few chassis maintenance records. In the 5” thick folder of receipts, etc., I can only find 3 chassis maintenance records.

June 2014 – No Mileage Listed on the work order but based on other service records from that time frame, I believe it was around 30K miles.
Sept. 2016 – No Mileage Listed and I don’t see any other records to indicate what it would have been around that time.
July 2017 – 43,500
Present – 52,000

If that information is complete and accurate, it’s been 4 years since the last oil change but only 8,500 miles. Suboptimal for sure. Given the condition of the rest of the RV, I'm not inclined to think they were intentionally neglectful of the chassis maintenance but in the spirit of trust but verify, I had an oil analysis done.

The big red flag is Iron but given it’s possibly 4 years and very limited use, I’m not sure if that’s just a result of not changing the oil or if there’s a significant issue brewing. I’m hoping someone can help interpret some of the rest of the results as they might relate to high iron. I’d like to think that the Iron reading being so high is an anomaly and there would be other markers to be concerned with. Perhaps that's wishful thinking based on the emotional and financial investment thus far.

Below are the results. The analysis report from JG lubricant suggests that a fluid/filter change is the only recommended action.

Anyone have any words of wisdom?

Wear Metals
Iron – 190
Chromium – 5
Nickel – 1
Aluminum – 42
Copper – 60
Lead – 2
Tin – 1
Cadmium, Silver, & Vanadium – 0

Contaminant Metals
Silicon – 9
Sodium – 5
Potassium – 38

Multi-Source Metals
Titanium – 1
Molybdenum – 56
Antimony – 0
Manganese – 3
Lithium – 0
Boron – 18

Additive Metals
Magnesium – 831
Calcium – 1258
Barium – 0
Phosphorus – 1000
Zinc – 1216

Contaminants
Fuel Dilution - Soot - Water
Fluid Properties:

Viscosity (100* C) – 13.0
Base #D4739 – 5.80
Oxidation – 15
Nitration – 12
 
I would check the EGR cooler for a leak, and make sure any liner seals are not leaking.

those metals are all pointing to cylinder/piston wear and bearing wear.
 
If the engine really sat for four years without running or without running much, you could be seeing rust being wiped off internals and corroded internals throwing off Fe.

Another thought about this vintage Cummins engine. 2009 was in the first couple years they required DPFs. Cummins had a bad reputation back then for problems with the particulate filters and after treatment systems in general. Has this engine had any recall work done on the aftertreatment system? Any updates to the system? If not, I would run. My $0.02
 
Thanks for the feedback. If I were to have an "expert" look at it, would some sort of compression or leakdown test help gauge the health of the engine? I'm more familiar with gas engines so I'm a little lost at next steps (other than just walking away)....
 
A compression test would be very costly. Fuel injectors would have to be removed and that requires a fair amount of disassembly. Not worth it as long as it runs OK.
 
Thanks Matt. How involved is testing the liner seals and EGR cooler? Given it's apparently a common issue, would it be wise to just budget for replacement soon?
 
Liner seals you’d be overhauling the engine in frame. EGR cooler would be easier. Pull he cooler inlet or outlet port for exhaust gas and look for moisture/coolant
 
Thanks Matt. Sounds like the EGR cooler check is the most prudent course of action.

I spoke with the owner of JG and he ran some reports against other ISLs they have data on. While it’s well above what they consider normal, it’s nowhere near their worst sample and based on the rest of the readings, he’s sure it’s nothing on the lower end so most likely is just lack of use combined with many cold starts and short idle/trip time over the last 4 years.

He also thinks there may be some leaking from the EGR cooler but said if it were him, he wouldn’t consider it a show stopper.

For what it’s worth, I emailed them this afternoon and got a call with 2 hours and he spent about 15 minutes discussing it with me. Don’t often see service like that!
 
You’re right, it’s not a “show stopper” yet. But when they go, they go. They can put coolant into the oil, overpressurize the cooling system, or ingest it through the EGR valve. We have a fleet of 11 of these from 2008-2021 MY engines. All of the ones 2015 and older have blown the coolers.
 
I’m going to call around for quotes on egr cooler replacement tomorrow and take it from there. Anything this old is going to need something fixed and it sounds like this was caught in time. Appreciate your guidance here!
 
I agree with the above posts, high iron is likely do to some rust and contaminants from sitting for a long period of time. Can't remember the last time I've seen a spun bearing in an ISL, even with a chewed cam or cracked piston. A compression check would also be a ton of money. But depending on the configuration of the RV most engine work, if needed, will be expensive. Rear mounted radiator setups are the worst to work on.

I would recommend having a reputable shop do a good pre-purchase inspection. You can have them check the amount of blowby (air getting into the crankcase) the engine has. Which gives you a good idea of the condition of the rings, turbo, and air compressor. And if they have a chassis dyno, they can check the power level. See if it's in the expected range and if there's any boost leaks. Blown exhaust gaskets and warped manifolds are pretty common in RV's, as it can be hard hear any boost leaks. I'd have to charge air piping checked for dust/debris as well. The head gaskets like to leak oil externally on the intake side, not going to hurt anything, just annoying if it starts dripping on the ground. Also belts and hoses obviously. It's going to be several hundred bucks, but worth it in the long run.

With that service history I would also highly recommend checking the coolant condition for freeze point and more importantly DCA levels. You can buy test strips for pretty cheap and it's a quick test. Then I would put in fresh coolant, made for diesels that already has DCA/SCA added. We've seen too many RV's that this goes unchecked and neglected. Or they had an issue and they went to a shop that didn't know what they were doing and just put in regular coolant. Result is coolant loss, pitted liners, and overhaul. Not trying to scare you away or anything, those are extreme cases, but much better to catch early on and so easy to check. Can't remember off hand if that engine has a Coolant Filter or not, but that does need to be changed periodically as well.

I'd personally just monitor it for coolant loss first, to see if it even has any coolant issues. As testing/checking these things could be several hundred bucks easy in an RV. Agreed EGR cooler is the weakest link on that engine, old horizontal plate style. We've had much better luck with the upgraded vertical plate coolers, but they need additional updated parts changed over. A quick check on it can be done on it by checking the inlet and outlet for coolant. But the only way to know for 100% is to have it pressure tested with correct tooling. Liner o-rings can be checked by dropping the oil pan and pressure testing the cooling system and watch for drips. But I'd just monitor coolant levels first and go from there.

Overall ISL's are very good engines, their fuel injectors are much better than ISC's, and it honestly takes a lot to kill them. Having said that, a good aftermarket warranty on an RV of that vintage would not be a bad idea at all. Lots of random little issues pop up, with slide outs, power steps, etc. Also would be a good to get the generator checked out too.
 
CumminsMech said:
I agree with the above posts, high iron is likely do to some rust and contaminants from sitting for a long period of time. Can't remember the last time I've seen a spun bearing in an ISL, even with a chewed cam or cracked piston. A compression check would also be a ton of money. But depending on the configuration of the RV most engine work, if needed, will be expensive. Rear mounted radiator setups are the worst to work on.

I would recommend having a reputable shop do a good pre-purchase inspection. You can have them check the amount of blowby (air getting into the crankcase) the engine has. Which gives you a good idea of the condition of the rings, turbo, and air compressor. And if they have a chassis dyno, they can check the power level. See if it's in the expected range and if there's any boost leaks. Blown exhaust gaskets and warped manifolds are pretty common in RV's, as it can be hard hear any boost leaks. I'd have to charge air piping checked for dust/debris as well. The head gaskets like to leak oil externally on the intake side, not going to hurt anything, just annoying if it starts dripping on the ground. Also belts and hoses obviously. It's going to be several hundred bucks, but worth it in the long run.

With that service history I would also highly recommend checking the coolant condition for freeze point and more importantly DCA levels. You can buy test strips for pretty cheap and it's a quick test. Then I would put in fresh coolant, made for diesels that already has DCA/SCA added. We've seen too many RV's that this goes unchecked and neglected. Or they had an issue and they went to a shop that didn't know what they were doing and just put in regular coolant. Result is coolant loss, pitted liners, and overhaul. Not trying to scare you away or anything, those are extreme cases, but much better to catch early on and so easy to check. Can't remember off hand if that engine has a Coolant Filter or not, but that does need to be changed periodically as well.

I'd personally just monitor it for coolant loss first, to see if it even has any coolant issues. As testing/checking these things could be several hundred bucks easy in an RV. Agreed EGR cooler is the weakest link on that engine, old horizontal plate style. We've had much better luck with the upgraded vertical plate coolers, but they need additional updated parts changed over. A quick check on it can be done on it by checking the inlet and outlet for coolant. But the only way to know for 100% is to have it pressure tested with correct tooling. Liner o-rings can be checked by dropping the oil pan and pressure testing the cooling system and watch for drips. But I'd just monitor coolant levels first and go from there.

Overall ISL's are very good engines, their fuel injectors are much better than ISC's, and it honestly takes a lot to kill them. Having said that, a good aftermarket warranty on an RV of that vintage would not be a bad idea at all. Lots of random little issues pop up, with slide outs, power steps, etc. Also would be a good to get the generator checked out too.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I did pull coolant, transmission, & generator oil as well.

Coolant definitely needs to be changed. Transmission was perfect and gen was also fine, although due for an oil change.

So I'm not treating as a show stopper, just as a flag to do some more diligence before proceeding. There is a warranty that can transfer as well but absent good maintenance records, I'm concerned they wouldn't cover something related to the engine so it would really be more for piece of mind on the house side.
 
It sounds like a potential problem . See what an engine rebuild costs and deduct it from the price. If you can't live with out that particular M/H
 
ISL9er said:
Looking at purchasing a used motorhome with a 2009 Cummins ISL 425 that has right at 52,000 miles and is in what I would call above average shape. Not perfect but much nicer than anything else we've looked at in that vintage. Kept in an insulated garage, always connected to shore power, all "house" systems are in excellent shape and there's a stack of maintenance records for everything pertaining to the RV side of this thing. They’ve always had a warranty on it so as something broke, they had it repaired or replaced.

Curiously, there are relatively few chassis maintenance records. In the 5” thick folder of receipts, etc., I can only find 3 chassis maintenance records.

June 2014 – No Mileage Listed on the work order but based on other service records from that time frame, I believe it was around 30K miles.
Sept. 2016 – No Mileage Listed and I don’t see any other records to indicate what it would have been around that time.
July 2017 – 43,500
Present – 52,000

If that information is complete and accurate, it’s been 4 years since the last oil change but only 8,500 miles. Suboptimal for sure. Given the condition of the rest of the RV, I'm not inclined to think they were intentionally neglectful of the chassis maintenance but in the spirit of trust but verify, I had an oil analysis done.

The big red flag is Iron but given it’s possibly 4 years and very limited use, I’m not sure if that’s just a result of not changing the oil or if there’s a significant issue brewing. I’m hoping someone can help interpret some of the rest of the results as they might relate to high iron. I’d like to think that the Iron reading being so high is an anomaly and there would be other markers to be concerned with. Perhaps that's wishful thinking based on the emotional and financial investment thus far.

Below are the results. The analysis report from JG lubricant suggests that a fluid/filter change is the only recommended action.

Anyone have any words of wisdom?

Wear Metals
Iron – 190
Chromium – 5
Nickel – 1
Aluminum – 42
Copper – 60
Lead – 2
Tin – 1
Cadmium, Silver, & Vanadium – 0

Contaminant Metals
Silicon – 9
Sodium – 5
Potassium – 38

Multi-Source Metals
Titanium – 1
Molybdenum – 56
Antimony – 0
Manganese – 3
Lithium – 0
Boron – 18

Additive Metals
Magnesium – 831
Calcium – 1258
Barium – 0
Phosphorus – 1000
Zinc – 1216

Contaminants
Fuel Dilution - Soot - Water
Fluid Properties:

Viscosity (100* C) – 13.0
Base #D4739 – 5.80
Oxidation – 15
Nitration – 12
Click to expand...

it sounds like this beast sits for a very long time and then gets started. This is essential a dry start every time it starts probably leading to these numbers especially if the oil hasn’t been changed in 4 years. I would also say that the numbers are high but my 6.7L Cummins shed iron for 35k at a high enough level Blackstone flagged it. I also had aluminum flagged a couple times.

If you are dead set on buying the motor home change the oil and monitor with follow up samples. One oil sample is a reference but not a trend. As far as the EGR ask the owner if they add coolant. If not I can’t imagine that’s the problem.

just my $0.02
 
tnt_motorsports said:
it sounds like this beast sits for a very long time and then gets started. This is essential a dry start every time it starts probably leading to these numbers especially if the oil hasn’t been changed in 4 years. I would also say that the numbers are high but my 6.7L Cummins shed iron for 35k at a high enough level Blackstone flagged it. I also had aluminum flagged a couple times.

If you are dead set on buying the motor home change the oil and monitor with follow up samples. One oil sample is a reference but not a trend. As far as the EGR ask the owner if they add coolant. If not I can’t imagine that’s the problem.

just my $0.02
Click to expand...
Did your iron come down on the Cummins? I had my first UOA done at 10000. It was the second change. Dealer did first at 5k. Blackstone flagged Iron on mine as well. I chalked it up to an almost new engine.
 
Curiousgb said:
Did your iron come down on the Cummins? I had my first UOA done at 10000. It was the second change. Dealer did first at 5k. Blackstone flagged Iron on mine as well. I chalked it up to an almost new engine.
Click to expand...
Yes eventually after about ~35k miles it dropped off. I just sent another sample in so we’ll see what that one says. That will be over 45k miles on the lower end. I’ve posted most of my samples in the diesel UOA forum.

Just my $0.02
 
I went through with the purchase and changed all the fluids. It’s a bit of a dice roll but JG didn’t feel it was a show stopper (of course it’s not their money!) based on other samples they had access to. Engine doesn’t smoke and seems to make full power. Silicon was low so if the Iron is related to dirty air, that’s not a recent thing.

I have about 1000 miles on the new oil change with a longer ~3000 mile trip coming up so I need to decide if I’m going to treat the initial oil change as a flush and change it before I take the longer trip or if I should run it a bit longer and change it after the long trip which would still be a pretty short interval of ~4000 miles.

Regarding the potential EGR leak, previous owner said they weren’t adding coolant/water so if that’s accurate, I’m in good shape. I flushed the coolant because that was past due as well. Fortunately it originally came with OAT from Spartan so it’s not as bad as letting the traditional antifreeze/SCA package run past the maintenance window. Anyhow, I used a vacuum deal when I refilled the coolant and it held 26PSI for over a minute with no loss of pressure so the cooling system seems to be OK in that respect. I’ll just have to keep en eye on it but the first 1000 miles have been fine.
 
ISL9er said:
I went through with the purchase and changed all the fluids. It’s a bit of a dice roll but JG didn’t feel it was a show stopper (of course it’s not their money!) based on other samples they had access to. Engine doesn’t smoke and seems to make full power. Silicon was low so if the Iron is related to dirty air, that’s not a recent thing.

I have about 1000 miles on the new oil change with a longer ~3000 mile trip coming up so I need to decide if I’m going to treat the initial oil change as a flush and change it before I take the longer trip or if I should run it a bit longer and change it after the long trip which would still be a pretty short interval of ~4000 miles.

Regarding the potential EGR leak, previous owner said they weren’t adding coolant/water so if that’s accurate, I’m in good shape. I flushed the coolant because that was past due as well. Fortunately it originally came with OAT from Spartan so it’s not as bad as letting the traditional antifreeze/SCA package run past the maintenance window. Anyhow, I used a vacuum deal when I refilled the coolant and it held 26PSI for over a minute with no loss of pressure so the cooling system seems to be OK in that respect. I’ll just have to keep en eye on it but the first 1000 miles have been fine.
Click to expand...
If you are concerned about the oil and have the time, you could run a sample before your trip to see if that indicates to change now or later. Keep in mind you never get all the oil out from the previous fill so some elevated iron might still be a thing but hopefully better.

I agree that 4,000 miles is short but until you get this figured out you might want to consider shorter OCI's. I've just started to push my truck to ~7,500 mile OCI's. I'm waiting on my second one to come back from Blackstone and will post it. IMO oil and filters are cheap compared to dealing with engine issues.

just my $0.02
 
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