Couple of Questions..

[Unleashedbeast]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dave07
Straight from my owners manual: "Use of synthetic or synthetic blend motor oil is not mandatory. Engine oil need only meet the requirements of Ford specification WSS-M2C945-A and display the API Certification Mark.

Amsoil meets this spec and is of the right viscosity.

Read again what Trav posted. Amsoil does not meet this spec. It is only "recommended for." Amsoil SS 5w-20 oil also does not display API Certification Mark.


If the API would treat all base lubricants fairly, Amsoil Signature Series would be API SN certified just like their XL and OE formulations. However, the API is heavily biased on group II and group III base oil formulations, allowing base stock swapping with minimal re-certification documentation.

We all know this rule does not apply to group IV and V base oil formulation, requiring a complete redo (money as well) of the entire certification process. Therefore, if one supplier is not able to meet demand, Amsoil can't go to another suppler of the exact same quality of material to continue production without a new certification process.

Until base oils are treated equal and fairly, Amsoil will never pay for the certification process from the API, despite exceeding the quality and formulation requirements to pass. Besides, the API is a minimum certification benchmark and hardly insures top tier quality.

 

[Unleashedbeast]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: dave07
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dave07
Straight from my owners manual: "Use of synthetic or synthetic blend motor oil is not mandatory. Engine oil need only meet the requirements of Ford specification WSS-M2C945-A and display the API Certification Mark.

Amsoil meets this spec and is of the right viscosity.

Read again what Trav posted. Amsoil does not meet this spec. It is only "recommended for." Amsoil SS 5w-20 oil also does not display API Certification Mark.

Wow. I feel like I got duped by Amsoil. I just saw the specification and figured the 5w-20 was approved and met the ford specs. Didn't read the paragraph above, shame on me. I'll definitely be returning it.

Maybe I'll just stick with Mobil 1 synthetic. It at least gives me peace of mind while still be relatively cheap.


No. These guys are NOT giving you good advice at ALL. Using Amsoil ALM 5W-20 will NOT void your warranty. They just don't understand - they try to come off as warranty experts, but they are not. Amsoil did not dupe you. Make the guys here show you the Ford list. You are correct, you would have some warranty difficulties if you used the wrong viscosity and had an engine problem related to the oil.


Dave, you better listen to Pablo. He is the only person here who knows Amsoil quality here better than I do. Amsoil even has their own in house warranty to cover you. If the OEM fails to comply, their legal team will handle the situation immediately.

Amsoil Warranty

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Unleashedbeast
Amsoil even has their own in house warranty to cover you. If the OEM fails to comply, their legal team will handle the situation immediately.

Amsoil Warranty


Yes, I can easily see a situation where Ford will blame the issue on Amsoil's lubricant, and Amsoil will try to blame the issue on a manufacturing defect by Ford. I know it'll eventually get squred away, but in the meantime the poor customer will be stuck in the middle, while Amsoil and Ford play ping-pong, and the vehicle is just sitting and waiting on repairs.

Is a failure unlikely? Yes. But why even take the risk in this case, no matter how small, when you can buy an approved product for less than what Amsoil SS costs?

With that said, I too think that Amsoil makes great products. But that is completely unrelated to corporate politics that one might get thrown in the middle of.

And I do value Pablo's input on BITOG. He is not a pushy salesman, but at the end of the day he's got a business to run.

 

[Trav]

Are you saying Amsoil tested these oils and got official certifications or licenses?
Why don't you show us the Ford list? I will show you GM's list.

Amsoil also has this under their "official recommendations"
Quote:
GM dexos1™ (supersedes 6094M)

It is NOT approved by GM.

http://www.centerforqa.com/gm/dexos1-brands

Are you also saying that for 5K a year there is any benefit using this expensive oil.

Originally Posted By: pablo
They just don't understand - they try to come off as warranty experts, but they are not


I might not be a warranty expert but i have seen enough to know working in the business all my life and know for a fact the manufacturers will try and get out of paying if they can.
Just show the approvals and licenses i for one am interested in their documentation.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Unleashedbeast
Amsoil even has their own in house warranty to cover you. If the OEM fails to comply, their legal team will handle the situation immediately.

Amsoil Warranty


Yes, I can easily see a situation where Ford will blame the issue on Amsoil's lubricant, and Amsoil will try to blame the issue on a manufacturing defect by Ford. I know it'll eventually get squred away, but in the meantime the poor customer will be stuck in the middle, while Amsoil and Ford play ping-pong, and the vehicle is just sitting and waiting on repairs.

Is a failure unlikely? Yes. But why even take the risk in this case, no matter how small, when you can buy an approved product for less than what Amsoil SS costs?

With that said, I too think that Amsoil makes great products. But that is completely unrelated to corporate politics that one might get thrown in the middle of.

And I do value Pablo's input on BITOG. He is not a pushy salesman, but at the end of the day he's got a business to run.


You hit the nail on the head. I don't think anyone in this thread is an Amsoil hater or has against Pablo, i know don't.
It also has nothing to do with the product quality, we all know it will pass any of the approvals with ease. Your point is exactly the scenario one has to avoid at all cost under warranty.

I just ask this question to anyone relying on Amsoil to back the warranty.
Are you willing to forgo the manufacturers warranty and let Amsoil assume your engine warranty in case of a lubrication failure?
If yes then have a nice day if not then use a spec oil.

 

[dave07]

Quote:

I just ask this question to anyone relying on Amsoil to back the warranty.
Are you willing to forgo the manufacturers warranty and let Amsoil assume your engine warranty in case of a lubrication failure?
If yes then have a nice day if not then use a spec oil.


I wasn't willing to do that. I apologize for doubting you. Sent the Amsoil back tonight!

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: dave07
Quote:

I just ask this question to anyone relying on Amsoil to back the warranty.
Are you willing to forgo the manufacturers warranty and let Amsoil assume your engine warranty in case of a lubrication failure?
If yes then have a nice day if not then use a spec oil.


I wasn't willing to do that. I apologize for doubting you. Sent the Amsoil back tonight!


To give you that question above is a specious argument. Amsoil meets the API requirements and does not "forgo the manufacturers warranty".

Ford does not have a list and the oil meets the requirements. Using ALM in no WAY violates the engine warranty.

https://www.amsoil.com/mygarage/vehiclelookuppage.aspx?url2=2013+FORD+MUSTANG+F

http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx

Scroll to the bottom of the page for API questions.

 

[Trav]

They admit it is not licensed only their claim that it meets or exceeds manufacturers specs.
Pablo i can whiz in a bottle and claim it meets or exceeds anything i want it to, prove otherwise. I didn't submit any samples for certification or licensing.

Amsoil admits they do no certify..
Quote:
If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers,

Forget the fluff statements and stick to the facts.

Does the ALM have Ford licensing? NO
Does it have API license? NO
They also claim..
Quote:
A federal law called the Magnuson-Moss Act (1975) prevents original equipment manufacturers from putting conditions on vehicle warranties attached to any product or service identified by brand, trade or corporate name, unless the manufacturer provides that product or service free of charge.


This true but the act does not say you can put anything you want in the crankcase including trav whiz and hold the manufacturer responsible for damages. That is ludicrous.

Quote:
Extending oil change intervals will not void new vehicle warranties. To affect the vehicle warranty, it must be determined that the lubricant was directly responsible for the failure; if the oil didn’t cause the problem


Go ahead to the dealer with 25k on the oil when the manual says OLM or whatever miles with a rod knock and see how far you get with that one.
Listen i am all for providing information but these statements are nothing but fluff bordering on bald faced lies IMO.

 

[Unleashedbeast]

You know, the car in reference from the original post is a 2013 Mustang GT. I post heavily in Mustang forums, which makes it easy to state this as fact.

Not once, and I mean once, have I read one case of any Ford dealership denying an engine warranty for the owner's engine lubricant choice. Not one post remotely suggesting it in all the years I have been on these forums. What dealers do use to deny warranty, engine/exhaust modifications and aftermarket tuning.

Never have I read ONE thread of a failed engine where Ford performed a used oil analysis, finding something astray, and voiding the warranty. Please, find one thread for me of a Mustang GT 5.0

What I do find odd, Motorcraft 5W-50. It shears, rapidly. Within 1500 miles, it sheared from 20.0 cSt @ 100*C down to the 13.x range. That's a very light 40 grade lubricant. Hope they are not looking for a 50 grade viscosity in your Boss 302, Track Pack GT, or GT500 engine. If so, instant VOID! *See what I did there.*

 

[Trav]

Quote:
you know, the car in reference from the original post is a 2013 Mustang GT. I post heavily in Mustang forums, which makes it easy to state this as fact.

You visit forums and use that as a source for "facts". LOL
Listen, unless you are privy to Fords warranty database you can state nothing as "fact"!

If you use an oil that is not licensed by either the manufacturer or API the manufacturer can void the lubrication part of the engines warranty. End of story.
Same thing with long drain intervals, if the failure is related to lubrication and you didn't follow the OLM or manufacturers interval they can deny warranty on the parts affected by the lubrication system.

They will of course repair other parts of the car and engine not affected by the oil, but if a turbo failure occurs you might be in real trouble.
The FI, electrics, emission system, etc will still be covered. You are basically trusting a third party to cover the lubricated parts of the engine.

Whether or not the manufacturer will go to the trouble to deny the claim is another story but they might ask for receipts for the oil and filter if you come in with a bad rod, main, cam chain, lifter or other lubricated parts that appears to have suffered a lube failure.

Quote:
What I do find odd, Motorcraft 5W-50. It shears, rapidly. Within 1500 miles, it sheared from 20.0 cSt @ 100*C down to the 13.x range. That's a very light 40 grade lubricant. Hope they are not looking for a 50 grade viscosity in your Boss 302, Track Pack GT, or GT500 engine. If so, instant VOID! *See what I did there.*


Yes i see what you did there and it makes no sense.
Ford has a spec for the oil they use, don't you think the engineers at Ford are aware of the shearing?
Its more than possible this was taken into account to arrive at a desired viscosity after xxx number of miles or hours.
Knowing this they eliminate the possibility of having to provide free oil changes for a special high spec oil of a lighter grade that wont shear. Just a thought.

You want facts? Call the manufacturer or read the warranty inc the small print.
Amsoils statements in the Q&A are ambiguous at best, but keep things legal and provide enough smoke and mirrors to baffle the average consumer.

Like i said i am no Amsoil hater, i am an Amsoil user but lets keep this honest.
Amsoil is charging premium prices for their product and not putting money to licensing them.
There could be a few reasons for this but those would be just my opinion as i don't know for a fact so why bother kiting them. See what i did there. LOL

 

[kschachn]

Do you happen to still have that analysis?

Originally Posted By: Unleashedbeast
What I do find odd, Motorcraft 5W-50. It shears, rapidly. Within 1500 miles, it sheared from 20.0 cSt @ 100*C down to the 13.x range. That's a very light 40 grade lubricant. Hope they are not looking for a 50 grade viscosity in your Boss 302, Track Pack GT, or GT500 engine. If so, instant VOID! *See what I did there.*

 

[bdcardinal]

Just going to come in with some experience from the dealer side of things. Make sure anything you use is approved by the manufacturer. We had an Escape towed in that was under Powertrain Warranty with an obvious engine failure. The customer provided receipts from an independent shop for oil changes. Per the new laws regarding stating what type of oil is used be printed on the receipt, all of the oil used was not approved by Ford. I guess some of the receipts indicated that a dino oil was used, and that did not help the claim since the owners manual stated synthetic blend was required. I was not privy to the info, but there have been cases of denial. My only involvement was selling parts to an independent shop that is doing the work since the customer pulled the car after warranty was denied.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Ford does not have a list and the oil meets the requirements.


We know previous posts that Amsoil explained that they review all of the tests that are due for a particular certification, then reviewing all of the tests for the specs that they are claiming, choose the "toughest" in any band of tests, and can therefore therefore state with confidence that they comply to all lesser specs.

What's the particular test that Amsoil use to demonstrate that they meet or exceed the Ford spec ?

Would put the OPs mind at rest one would think.

 

[crazyoildude]

you must use the oil spec and weight they tell you to use if amsoil has that spec listed than it's ok to use. If the owners manual says to use this WSS-M2C945-A with API Certification Mark. Then that is what you have to use or else there can be warranty issues along with some drama..

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Unleashedbeast
If the API would treat all base lubricants fairly, Amsoil Signature Series would be API SN certified just like their XL and OE formulations. However, the API is heavily biased on group II and group III base oil formulations, allowing base stock swapping with minimal re-certification documentation.

We all know this rule does not apply to group IV and V base oil formulation, requiring a complete redo (money as well) of the entire certification process. Therefore, if one supplier is not able to meet demand, Amsoil can't go to another suppler of the exact same quality of material to continue production without a new certification process.

Until base oils are treated equal and fairly, Amsoil will never pay for the certification process from the API, despite exceeding the quality and formulation requirements to pass. Besides, the API is a minimum certification benchmark and hardly insures top tier quality.


You are talking utter rubbish...

As per the Appendix E interchange guidelines, group IV get the following

Quote:
Not Required provided the interchange Group IV meets the original manufacturer’s specifications in all physical and chemical properties


What's not fair about that ?

It's a lot tougher for the 1 and 2s, which you are claiming get preferential treatment from API...unless you've got another source of information.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3542819/API_Base_oil_interchange_guide

 

[Pablo]

AMSOIL WSS-M2C945-A and API compliant fluids will not void the manufacturer’s warranty. It simply won't. And yes Magnuson Moss act does play a role. If Amsoil claims WSS-M2C945-A and API, then they have run and exceeded ALL the tests. Amsoil cannot legally claim WSS-M2C945-A and API without passing the proper testing. Again, some folks here claim they know warranty law and they simply do not.

Ford does not keep a WSS-M2C945-A list.

Ford knows this and will not challenge. If the dealer somehow challenges, then quickly contact Amsoil, Amsoil will prove to the dealer the oil meets all the requirements. These "hassles" that people speak of here on BITOG do NOT happen in real life with Amsoil. You would think selling Amsoil for 15+ years, I would have 1 case - but not even one I know of peripherally. Guys, it doesn't happen. I don't think the posters saying these things are against Amsoil. I know because some have bought from me. It's more of an internet thing. Everyone wants to show they are better informed, smarter than the average bear I guess.

 

[Shannow]

Back to the test selection that proves they meet or exceed...which are they ?

The actual Ford tests, or the ones that AMSOIL has chosen to prove the worst case ?

Which means that they can be elucidated...

 

[Pablo]

All the tests required by Ford for WSS-M2C945-A.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
AMSOIL Dexos compliant fluids will not void the manufacturer’s warranty. It simply won't. And yes Magnuson Moss act does play a role. If Amsoil claims Dexos, then they have run and exceeded ALL the tests. Amsoil cannot legally claim Dexos without passing the proper testing. Again, some folks here claim they know warranty law and they simply do not.

Being Dexos “certified” means paying General Motors to be on a special list. Amsoil currently chooses not to participate in that scheme.

GM knows this and will not challenge. If the dealer somehow challenges, then quickly contact Amsoil, Amsoil will prove to the dealer the oil meets all the Dexos requirements.


Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V

 

[Oily_hair]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave07
I bought Amsoil SS 5w-20 for it to stay warranty friendly.


It is not approved by Ford for warranty. So thats out the window if you have a lubrication related failure, even if its manufacturing defect you will have to deal with Amsoil directly not Ford.

Quote:
APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil is excellent for use
in all types of gasoline-fueled vehicles. It is recommended for all
domestic and foreign vehicles requiring any of the listed performance specifications:
Recommended does not = Approved.

Under warranty i would only use an approved oil and follow the OLM in any case. Never open yourself up for a warranty claim denial, they will jump through a small hole if they find one.
The Fumoto is another story, it doesn't allow a good flushing out flow of oil, its good for UOA but so is taking a small sample when you open the drain plug.


I'm a little late to respond to this but I don't see how you interpret "It is recommended" as not meeting the Ford standards (Ford WSS-M2C945-A, WSS-M2C930-A)? Signature Series I'm guessing is Amzoil's top oil and most expensive so it makes sense for the them to recommend that product to a customer. It's no different than when I visit the Pennzoil's website and they recommend that I use Pennzoil Platinum when clearly the conventional oil is what will meet my vehicles needs. So now that Pennzoil recommend an oil that is probably considered overkill by Dodge will somehow cause friction with my warranty? "It is recommended" in no way comes close to insinuating that the product doesn't meet the standard. The dealers lawyer will have a tough time in court proving that especially if Amzoil can produce proof...which I am positive they can especially in the litigious society we live in now where people are sued for every little thing....as Pablo mentioned they will not go their. If they used terms like "it may" meet Ford's WSS-M2C945-A, WSS-M2C930-A or "this oil could also benefit cars with Ford standards WSS-M2C945-A, WSS-M2C930-A" then yes that would be a definite red flag. A manufactures recommendation of which oil to use in a certain applications doesn't seem to harm the warranty in this situation. I have never used Amzoil (nor will I ever) so I am reading this thread with a total unbiased attitude and I think you guys are picking at things that are not there.

BTW I always think it is best what the car maker recommends and in this case it is Motorcraft but Ford does include "or equivalent" so the OP is alright to use the oil if it makes them sleep better at nights.