Coolant misinformation from a bitter grease-monkey

[onion]

Folks, I have a confession to make. As many of you know, I LOATHE Dexcool. We all know the horror stories: sludge, rust, gasket deterioriation, more sludge, etc. I've made more than my share of rants on the matter- and I still stand by MOST of them.

But in my rage against corrosion and crud, I've strayed from the straight and narrow... worse yet, I've led others astray. My only excuses are youth and ignorance (at the time), and just plain ignorance up until yesterday.

On several occasions, I included in my anti-Dexcool rants a sub-rant regarding problems that I personally witnessed with Cummins N14 head gaskets... problems that I loudly and repeatedly attributed to Dexcool. But yesterday during some tangentially related googling (looking up info on Detroit Diesel Power Cool Plus, incidentally), I came across information indicating that I've been wrong all these years- and have attributed these Cummins gasket failures to the WRONG coolant.

See rants here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1466971

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post941360

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post847011

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post846998

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post846988

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post832636

These gasket failures occurred in the mid-late 90's, back when Dexcool was a newfangled product... and most folks assumed that red coolant = dexcool. That was my assumption... which I held onto WAY too long. Now, I wasn't entirely wrong. The coolant was red. And it was made by Texaco. It MAY have even used 2eha at the time (I haven't been able to confirm or falsify this). But I learned yesterday that the coolant in question is in fact Texaco Extended Life: a 'NOAT' coolant.

Specific info on the incompatibility between Texaco ELC and certain Cummins and GM gaskets- and how this has been addressed- is available at the following links:

http://www.radiatorreporter.com/cummtext.htm

http://www.penray.com/images/TechnicalBulletinTexaco.pdf

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cgi-bin/ryderfp/products/srm/oid/125683/erm/product_detail.jsp

This is consistent with my experience with ELC coolants. As I've stated within several of the rants that I linked to- in my 14 years of diesel-mechanicing, with the exception of these Cummins gasket problems, I've Seen very few issues with ELC coolants in diesel applications. Certainly fewer than I've seen with more conventional SCA-type coolants.

And now that I can conclusively separate Texaco ELC problems from those of other NOAT coolants, I can confidently recommend their use. That's not to say that NOBODY has had problems with assorted NOAT coolants- I've heard that Navistar doesn't approve of their use in powerstroke engines. But in my own extensive experience with Cummins, Case, John Deere, and Detroit products, I've seen no reason NOT to use a NOAT coolant in most diesel applications... with the exception of Texaco.

So in conclusion, I still don't like Dexcool. I still will not use it in my own vehicles, nor will I recommend it to others. We all KNOW that it causes sludge, and I think we've done a decent job of establishing when, where, and why this happens. But Dexcool does not attack Cummins head gaskets as far as I know.

 

[Chris142]

I'm with you as Dexcool goes. I won't run it in my stuff or my customers stuff unless they ask for it.

OT: You should come fix my NT Cummins. Headgaskets seap on cold days.

 

[PT1]

I have been using it without incident for years...the Dexcool hype is just hype. The gaskets that go bad are the gaskets and a development made by the gsaket supplier who didn't test them correctly. NOT the Dexcool. If you leave your radiator cap off or it is bad and doesn't pressurize the system OR if you don't change out coolant as part of a PM program...you will have problems with ANY coolant.

 

[mechanicx]

I will look through those links. But hey, it takes a bigger man to admit he changed his mind or might have even been wrong than one who doesn't

. And if I should I find out Dexcool really is the devil, I'll eat my words too lol.

 

[defektes]

Yeah I agree and the people that dont hate dexcool most of the time havent suffered repeated IMG failures, but I admit its not that bad in every application.

+1

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

Originally Posted By: defektes
Yeah I agree and the people that dont hate dexcool most of the time havent suffered repeated IMG failures, but I admit its not that bad in every application.

+1


Words to live by, sir!

 

[Pablo]

It is interesting what materials some of the new age/new theme coolants attacked....and the chemists didn't "predict" these chemical incompatibilities. I can see them soaking the material......but not under heat/pressure perhaps. So it was silicone head gaskets in this case. Interesting.

 

[Coolant_Man]

Dex-Cool = Deathcool

 

[PeteTheFarmer]

I believe Texaco ELC has been a 2EHA product since its inception, although I haven't found a MSDS earlier than 2002

http://www.koldkatcher.com/Coolant.pdf

Peak takes a jab at Texaco by mentioning that Final Charge requires no silicate additive to prevent gasket degradation

http://www.finalcharge.com/questions.html#l12

If you have access to SAE documents, a paper published around the time period mentioned discusses the compatibility of various organic acids with different elastomers

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2000-01-1095

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: PeteTheFarmer
I believe Texaco ELC has been a 2EHA product since its inception, although I haven't found a MSDS earlier than 2002

http://www.koldkatcher.com/Coolant.pdf


I'm of the belief that all brands of Dexcool/dexclones contain 2-EHA. What other OATs that they might contain and vary by might make a difference, but how would anyone know for sure?

Quote:
Peak takes a jab at Texaco by mentioning that Final Charge requires no silicate additive to prevent gasket degradation

http://www.finalcharge.com/questions.html#l12


I'm really thinking Final Charge is Peak GL. And so that makes PGL much more proven than it otherwise would be.


Quote:
If you have access to SAE documents, a paper published around the time period mentioned discusses the compatibility of various organic acids with different elastomers

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2000-01-1095


that sounds like a very interesting reading. The only problem is it would be nice to know what your applications headgasket and other gasket were composed of exactly.

 

[Dan55]

I agree that FC is PGL and have just been waiting for the proof.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
onion - Thanks for your interesting Thread

When the Detroit Diesel Series 60 engines were introduced into OZ (around 1988-9) the Importer did not insist on correct coolant maintenance - including using the correct coolant. Subsequently some of my clients experienced serious coolant related issues including cavitaion holes through the blocks let alone the liners - no head gasket problems though!

On investigation I found they were using incorrect coolant and water having high mineral levels (partiicularly in rural areas). The water alone was enough to cause sludge

This covered tens of engines - some were "mysteriously" replaced under Warranty as a goodwill gesture - most were not
In one Fleet alone I saw a dozen trashed blocks with hole through the side!

Simply using the correct coolant (premixed where water quality was suspect) and following monthly coolant strip/test kit analysis of nitrite levels (and etc) quickly solved the problems - for many it was too late!. DD's Distributor was sold to Penske about 1990 and a much stricter regime on fluids and lubricants emerged

In my own case monthly coolant analysis was always part of the regime. The results and any corrective action taken were always documented by the Service Provider and faxed to me for obvious reasons (and added to y Database)

Each driver had a five liter container of concentrate to be used in an emergency (rare if ever) and details of any topups were added to his weekly time sheet-trip record. Action could be taken on this data

Drivers were told never to take the caps off except to add coolant as introducing oxygen to a closed system is also "unproductive" to say the least

Filters were replaced every twelve months

I always used a Castrol supplied coolant even though Mobil supply to DD as "their" Brand product and mostly I used their lubricants

I can say that in millions of miles and nearly 20 years I never had any coolant issues - and the coolant was NEVER changed during the life of each truck with me (1m kms- 4 years). Some of my "old" engines now have many millions of kms on theme and new owners "rave" about their longevity

Correct and intelligent maintenance is the key IMO

 

[doitmyself]

Doug,

Thank you for sharing with us. It is much appreciated. At my workplace, 2 farm tractor diesel engines were ruined because people used the old high silicate auto coolant (no SCA) in them. A gross example of wrong coolant, and it has fueled my "anal" nature ever since.

When you say "correct coolant", do you think that those here using, lets say, Peak Global Lifetime (unconfirmed chemistry) in a Honda or Toyota is wrong, in reference to your "Correct and intelligent maintenance"?

Thanks.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
doitmyself - You obviously feel like me on these matters after your experience

As for your question I have no knowledge of the coolant you mention or the specific needs of the Toyota & Honda engines concerned

IMO the only way to be sure is to seek the needs (specification) of the engine family concerned and match that to the coolant purchased

My Boxters's Handbook (M96) just provides an anti freeze water ratio! Because I know the block/gasket's stucture I use a specific concentrate which I mix myself. This is the same stuff as 928 Porsches require, which have more specific needs and are the same as BMW. Castrol make a special early alloy (mix) block & gasket formula and I use that - it is very hard to get. I use a four year change cycle

My advice as always is to closely follow the engine Manufacturer's specification at all times!

 

[pavelow]

Originally Posted By: PT1
I have been using it without incident for years...the Dexcool hype is just hype. The gaskets that go bad are the gaskets and a development made by the gsaket supplier who didn't test them correctly. NOT the Dexcool. If you leave your radiator cap off or it is bad and doesn't pressurize the system OR if you don't change out coolant as part of a PM program...you will have problems with ANY coolant.
X2

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Doug,

Thank you for sharing with us. It is much appreciated. At my workplace, 2 farm tractor diesel engines were ruined because people used the old high silicate auto coolant (no SCA) in them. A gross example of wrong coolant, and it has fueled my "anal" nature ever since.

When you say "correct coolant", do you think that those here using, lets say, Peak Global Lifetime (unconfirmed chemistry) in a Honda or Toyota is wrong, in reference to your "Correct and intelligent maintenance"?

Thanks.


I have been using PEAK GL in my Accord for years with no problrms at all. I plan to use it in my Corolla and also in my Buick when its time for a change. The only problem is the difficulty in finding it in the full strength version.

 

[OVERKILL]

Has Texaco since changed the formulation of this product? I ask because I have Texaco red in the Expedition currently.........

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Has Texaco since changed the formulation of this product? I ask because I have Texaco red in the Expedition currently.........


I don't know. Currently, Texaco ELC is advertized as using a carboxylate OAT rather than 2eha. But I have no way of knowing if that's always been the case. Most (if not all) other brands of heavy duty ELC use carboxylate, and none have had the same problems as Texaco ELC: leading me to wonder if Texaco ELC initially used 2eha (years ago), causing the head gasket problems. But it's pure speculation on my part... I've nothing to back it up.



Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Doug,

Thank you for sharing with us. It is much appreciated. At my workplace, 2 farm tractor diesel engines were ruined because people used the old high silicate auto coolant (no SCA) in them. A gross example of wrong coolant, and it has fueled my "anal" nature ever since.

When you say "correct coolant", do you think that those here using, lets say, Peak Global Lifetime (unconfirmed chemistry) in a Honda or Toyota is wrong, in reference to your "Correct and intelligent maintenance"?

Thanks.


I know you didn't ask me, but I'll chime in anyway. No, PGL is not technically the 'correct' coolant chemistry for a Honda or Yota- thought I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't work fine. I use G05 in my GM vehicles- which works fine despite not being the 'correct' chemistry.

The problems that Doug Hillary refers to (cavitation through the cylinder walls and/or engine block) are pretty specific to diesel engines- particularly heavy industrial engines with removable wet cylinder liners. It has no bearing on the coolant choices for a Yota or Honda.

 

[mechanicx]

I tend to think Texaco might have added another OA to their dexcool to improve it. But my understanding is that carboxylate acids include 2-EHA, and I think all Dexcool/Dexclones contain 2-EHA. While I think a Dexcool licenses products is a spec more than a specific formula, still as far as I know they all contain 2-EHA and that's what makes them Dexcool.

Lol Overk1ll you are using a GM type coolant in a Ford

.

 

[mkIIIman089]

I think 2-EHA is the cheapest way to meet the Dexcool spec, going to a different, more expensive chemical could maintain the Dexcool requirements but no company wants to hit their bottom line by doing that when nearly no one else is. Even if it would cure the Dex plasticizer issues.

I don't have a specific alternative to 2-EHA in mind, just remembering some tidbits while researching 2-EHA.