This horse has been beaten more than once. The minute amount of chlorinated hydrocarbons are in MMO for a reason, and to date I haven't heard of one engine damaged by it when used as directed. Glad to hear you use it Ed, and thanks for the info!
Composition of Marvel Mystery Oil
- Thread starter Boomer
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Originally Posted By: edhackett
A good base oil will contain nothing but pure hydrocarbons, just carbon and hydrogen. Elements such as S, P, O, or any of the halogens are reactive and degrade the oil over time.
So what about PAOs and Esters?
A good base oil will contain nothing but pure hydrocarbons, just carbon and hydrogen. Elements such as S, P, O, or any of the halogens are reactive and degrade the oil over time.
So what about PAOs and Esters?
I use MMO in the oil,,no damaged engine yet,,no smoking, no oil usage, no rattles,,ancient 318 engine,,2002
Dodge,,go figure. getting close to 280k miles on engine now.Will run this engine till she drops. I have quit splitting hairs over oils and such. I have lots of expediter friends that have no clue whats in their engines, they just go to wally world or a fast lube place and go on and some of them are at the 100k, 200k, and yes 600k miles on their engines and they aren't having any problems. we in BITOG may be in the minority on oil education, I think that 90 percent of the public don't care about their oil, just so long as the engine runs and momma can get the kids at school and go to grocery store and back, IMHO...
Dodge,,go figure. getting close to 280k miles on engine now.Will run this engine till she drops. I have quit splitting hairs over oils and such. I have lots of expediter friends that have no clue whats in their engines, they just go to wally world or a fast lube place and go on and some of them are at the 100k, 200k, and yes 600k miles on their engines and they aren't having any problems. we in BITOG may be in the minority on oil education, I think that 90 percent of the public don't care about their oil, just so long as the engine runs and momma can get the kids at school and go to grocery store and back, IMHO...
1,2-dichlorobenzene as an anti-rust agent, degreasing agent, would remove the engine parts carbon and lead, removing the surface coating of metal without metal corrosion
SOURCE: http://www.chemyq.com/en/xz/xz1/7559tgxen.htm
SOURCE: http://www.chemyq.com/en/xz/xz1/7559tgxen.htm
Originally Posted By: edhackett
The harmful acid by-products from chlorinated hydrocarbons are formed in the combustion chamber.
So then MMO in the crankcase would appear to be harmless as an engine oil additive, since hydrochloric acid would not be formed, yes?
Even if you assume MMO does have 10,000 PPM dichlorobenzene, no one is running straight MMO into their combustion chamber. Following the MMO recommendation of 4 oz. to 10 gallons of fuel, the MMO has been diluted 320 times by my division, which would mean about 30 PPM dichlorobenzenes in the fuel/MMO mixture. Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase? Or are the acid neutralizers in a good motor oil enough to render this small amount harmless?
And the original MMO info indicates that the total amount of dichlorobenzenes to be about 3/4%...meaning that the total PPM of dicholorbenzene in MMO diluted in fuel would be even less than 30 PPM, maybe closer to 20-25.
The harmful acid by-products from chlorinated hydrocarbons are formed in the combustion chamber.
So then MMO in the crankcase would appear to be harmless as an engine oil additive, since hydrochloric acid would not be formed, yes?
Even if you assume MMO does have 10,000 PPM dichlorobenzene, no one is running straight MMO into their combustion chamber. Following the MMO recommendation of 4 oz. to 10 gallons of fuel, the MMO has been diluted 320 times by my division, which would mean about 30 PPM dichlorobenzenes in the fuel/MMO mixture. Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase? Or are the acid neutralizers in a good motor oil enough to render this small amount harmless?
And the original MMO info indicates that the total amount of dichlorobenzenes to be about 3/4%...meaning that the total PPM of dicholorbenzene in MMO diluted in fuel would be even less than 30 PPM, maybe closer to 20-25.
The whole argument that because MMO contains a bit of this, that or the other is damaging to engines defies reason IMHO.
AFAIK no class action law suites or even people complaining that it damaged an engine even after using it over long periods have been claimed in over 80 years.
The fact they still produce this product for this long proves to me that at least that it doesn't wreak havoc in the engine.
AFAIK no class action law suites or even people complaining that it damaged an engine even after using it over long periods have been claimed in over 80 years.
The fact they still produce this product for this long proves to me that at least that it doesn't wreak havoc in the engine.
I've said this before, 1988 E-150 fed MMO via an Inverse Oiler since it was about 6 months old. I estimate about a year and a half ago I disconnected it, and fed it MMO mixed into the gas. Cat Converter is still good, passes NY sniffer w/o a problem. It's been in the oil a lot of times and for the full OCI.
1993 Aerostar 193,000 miles original O2 sensor and cat converter. Fed MMO since I bought it with about 50,000 miles on it. I recently switched to TCW3, no issues.
1985 E-150 4.9L MMO since day one in the gas, added to the oil more times than I can count. Sold with about 150,000 miles original CC and 02 sensor IIRC. Come to think about it I added an Inverse oiler to that van when I got the 88 E-150. I bought 2 inverse Oilers, I took that Inverse Oiler off when I sold the van and have it in the garage somewhere. Wow something to look for one of these days.
I can date all the way back to my first car a 1966 Ford Falcon, got that from my father. MMO in the gas and the oil. Car was totaled with well over 100K miles on it. Ran like a top, the engine was clean as a whistle.
No engine problems to report or damage from MMO. I know........I might have had the same results without it, maybe. My point here is nothing was damaged from MMO.
1993 Aerostar 193,000 miles original O2 sensor and cat converter. Fed MMO since I bought it with about 50,000 miles on it. I recently switched to TCW3, no issues.
1985 E-150 4.9L MMO since day one in the gas, added to the oil more times than I can count. Sold with about 150,000 miles original CC and 02 sensor IIRC. Come to think about it I added an Inverse oiler to that van when I got the 88 E-150. I bought 2 inverse Oilers, I took that Inverse Oiler off when I sold the van and have it in the garage somewhere. Wow something to look for one of these days.
I can date all the way back to my first car a 1966 Ford Falcon, got that from my father. MMO in the gas and the oil. Car was totaled with well over 100K miles on it. Ran like a top, the engine was clean as a whistle.
No engine problems to report or damage from MMO. I know........I might have had the same results without it, maybe. My point here is nothing was damaged from MMO.
Quote:
So what about PAOs and Esters?
PAOs are very stable. They are composed of chains of small building blocks containing only C and H. Given a clean feedstock and proper processing they should be totally free of reactive contaminants. A single double bond in the molecule may be the only potential reaction site.
Esters are a different story. They can undergo hydrolysis, which is a reaction with water under weak acidic or alkaline conditions. This reaction breaks the ester down into its parent acid and alcohol. This was a real issue when esters were first tried in internal combustion engines. Specific types of esters are more resistant to hydrolysis and are now used in motor oils. It's not a real issue with today's oils. Esters contain an O and a double bonded O, which gives the molecule its polar nature. Polarity aids solvency, cleaning, and the ability to "cling" to metal surfaces.
Quote:
So then MMO in the crankcase would appear to be harmless as an engine oil additive, since hydrochloric acid would not be formed, yes?
No, not really. Crankcase oil enters the combustion chamber via the rings, valve guides, and PVC system.
I do agree that the amount of HCl formed by MMO is very likely handled by a fully formulated motor oil in the crankcase. The HCl that goes directly out the exhaust is also of such a small amount that the effects on the exhaust valve and exhaust system are likely inconsequential.
The above has been proven to not be the case for additives that are primarily chlorinated paraffins.
Acid is one of those things that less, preferably none, is always better. That's why I will only use a product containing chlorine as a quick flush or fuel system shock treatment.
Ed
So what about PAOs and Esters?
PAOs are very stable. They are composed of chains of small building blocks containing only C and H. Given a clean feedstock and proper processing they should be totally free of reactive contaminants. A single double bond in the molecule may be the only potential reaction site.
Esters are a different story. They can undergo hydrolysis, which is a reaction with water under weak acidic or alkaline conditions. This reaction breaks the ester down into its parent acid and alcohol. This was a real issue when esters were first tried in internal combustion engines. Specific types of esters are more resistant to hydrolysis and are now used in motor oils. It's not a real issue with today's oils. Esters contain an O and a double bonded O, which gives the molecule its polar nature. Polarity aids solvency, cleaning, and the ability to "cling" to metal surfaces.
Quote:
So then MMO in the crankcase would appear to be harmless as an engine oil additive, since hydrochloric acid would not be formed, yes?
No, not really. Crankcase oil enters the combustion chamber via the rings, valve guides, and PVC system.
I do agree that the amount of HCl formed by MMO is very likely handled by a fully formulated motor oil in the crankcase. The HCl that goes directly out the exhaust is also of such a small amount that the effects on the exhaust valve and exhaust system are likely inconsequential.
The above has been proven to not be the case for additives that are primarily chlorinated paraffins.
Acid is one of those things that less, preferably none, is always better. That's why I will only use a product containing chlorine as a quick flush or fuel system shock treatment.
Ed
Hi Ed,
How is it that they make the claim here that it reduces and prevents Acid Formation? Is it something else contained in MMO that does it. The contents are listed somewhere above.
Thanks
ADDED TO ENGINE OIL:
• Prevents valve sticking and clatter.
• Fortifies properties of engine oil, prevents breakdown
caused by extreme temperatures.
• Promotes easier cold weather starts.
• Reduces and prevents acid and sludge formation.
How is it that they make the claim here that it reduces and prevents Acid Formation? Is it something else contained in MMO that does it. The contents are listed somewhere above.
Thanks
ADDED TO ENGINE OIL:
• Prevents valve sticking and clatter.
• Fortifies properties of engine oil, prevents breakdown
caused by extreme temperatures.
• Promotes easier cold weather starts.
• Reduces and prevents acid and sludge formation.
boomer, thats what the napa auto care show local mechcanics said yesterday that mmo is NOT to used in modern day engines!!! they listed several reasons...will post when i find out more..
I'd be interested in seeing your findings boxcar. I take a lot of what these local mechanics say with a grain of salt though. I'd think after 85 or however many years MMO's been around we'd have heard of all the engine failures caused by it by now. Or the FTC would have fined them and/or shut them down. It hasn't happened, yet.
Post what you find though, I'm interested, and always looking for something new or better if it comes along.
Post what you find though, I'm interested, and always looking for something new or better if it comes along.
I don't know about the lower acid claim. Maybe it was true with the oil and fuel 80 years ago.
See this thread showing consistently lower TBN with the use of MMO.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2111494#Post2111494
Ed
See this thread showing consistently lower TBN with the use of MMO.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2111494#Post2111494
Ed
Originally Posted By: ChuckBerry
Following the MMO recommendation of 4 oz. to 10 gallons of fuel, the MMO has been diluted 320 times by my division, which would mean about 30 PPM dichlorobenzenes in the fuel/MMO mixture. Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase?
No to both questions. Contamination between when the oil is refined to when its pumped into the tank could easily account, on any given day, for at least that much as "trace" chemicals.
In the amounts we are talking about, in actual usage of the product, this building a nice dark intimidating house - but when you deconstruct that argument that was made, its built on a house of cards.
If MMO did the harm its being claimed to do here, the product reputation would have been destroyed long ago and nobody would be using it.
Interesting sideshow though.
-Spyder
Following the MMO recommendation of 4 oz. to 10 gallons of fuel, the MMO has been diluted 320 times by my division, which would mean about 30 PPM dichlorobenzenes in the fuel/MMO mixture. Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase?
No to both questions. Contamination between when the oil is refined to when its pumped into the tank could easily account, on any given day, for at least that much as "trace" chemicals.
In the amounts we are talking about, in actual usage of the product, this building a nice dark intimidating house - but when you deconstruct that argument that was made, its built on a house of cards.
If MMO did the harm its being claimed to do here, the product reputation would have been destroyed long ago and nobody would be using it.
Interesting sideshow though.
-Spyder
k i read alot of this thread and im stumped
question:
when your oil gets up to temp doesnt the water burn off??
question:
when your oil gets up to temp doesnt the water burn off??
Originally Posted By: electrolover
k i read alot of this thread and im stumped
question:
when your oil gets up to temp doesnt the water burn off??
Yes. That's partly why winters are harder are on oil than summer months: in winter it takes longer to get to operating temp, and for many people, many trips will be too short for it to get there; so there is more moisture present, and fuel dilution becomes an issue. Both are burned off at operating temp, but the cycles and longer periods operating below operating temp means more contamination from moisture and fuel. This is why it can be a good idea, for many, to change the oil out in Spring even if they're not at the mileage they usually change at. But for those who commute regularly, or don't live in colder climates, this isn't applicable.
This also why its a good idea to take the car out once in a while to get the oil up to operating temp, for short trippers: to burn off the moisture and fuel present.
-Spyder
k i read alot of this thread and im stumped
question:
when your oil gets up to temp doesnt the water burn off??
Yes. That's partly why winters are harder are on oil than summer months: in winter it takes longer to get to operating temp, and for many people, many trips will be too short for it to get there; so there is more moisture present, and fuel dilution becomes an issue. Both are burned off at operating temp, but the cycles and longer periods operating below operating temp means more contamination from moisture and fuel. This is why it can be a good idea, for many, to change the oil out in Spring even if they're not at the mileage they usually change at. But for those who commute regularly, or don't live in colder climates, this isn't applicable.
This also why its a good idea to take the car out once in a while to get the oil up to operating temp, for short trippers: to burn off the moisture and fuel present.
-Spyder
I've never had much use for MMO as a cleaner. But since it seems so inert, I have been adding it a bit lately to my oils in my Hondas since I've been trying to clear out some of my 30 and 40 weight oils. I've been running it full blown Honda maintenance minder intervals, too. 5-12k depending on the car. Maybe a pint at most..probably not that much...
ya know when its cold, like 30 i have condensation on my oil cap and filler tube. since i added mmo i dont have the condensation any more... does it really remove water vapor from oil?
does anyone know exactly how much a 20% fill with mmo will thin?
like will it make a 5/30 into a 5/20? my oil seems really thin now at just a 14% concentration. maybe its just me idk
does anyone know exactly how much a 20% fill with mmo will thin?
like will it make a 5/30 into a 5/20? my oil seems really thin now at just a 14% concentration. maybe its just me idk
Originally Posted By: electrolover
ya know when its cold, like 30 i have condensation on my oil cap and filler tube. since i added mmo i dont have the condensation any more... does it really remove water vapor from oil?
does anyone know exactly how much a 20% fill with mmo will thin?
like will it make a 5/30 into a 5/20? my oil seems really thin now at just a 14% concentration. maybe its just me idk
Short answer: you can calculate it.
Long answer Amount depends on what you add it to. There are viscosity calculators. Plug in 80% cSt@100 for what you're adding it too (you'd have to look this up), and 20% the cSt@100 of MMO (I don't know the value off hand). 5W30s vary somewhat in viscosity to begin with. Ex: cSt@100 for 5W30 Syntec is 9.7 (9.3 is minimum required for 5W30), for QS HM its 11.9.
-Spyder
ya know when its cold, like 30 i have condensation on my oil cap and filler tube. since i added mmo i dont have the condensation any more... does it really remove water vapor from oil?
does anyone know exactly how much a 20% fill with mmo will thin?
like will it make a 5/30 into a 5/20? my oil seems really thin now at just a 14% concentration. maybe its just me idk
Short answer: you can calculate it.
Long answer Amount depends on what you add it to. There are viscosity calculators. Plug in 80% cSt@100 for what you're adding it too (you'd have to look this up), and 20% the cSt@100 of MMO (I don't know the value off hand). 5W30s vary somewhat in viscosity to begin with. Ex: cSt@100 for 5W30 Syntec is 9.7 (9.3 is minimum required for 5W30), for QS HM its 11.9.
-Spyder
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the guys at the mmo site say at 20% it will drop your viscosity roughly one grade. next time i use it i will use a 5/30
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase? Or are the acid neutralizers in a good motor oil enough to render this small amount harmless?
I don't think there are enough chlorine molecules to form an acid, and yes the calcium and other acid neutralizers would take care of what might be there.
The chlorine is used in the chemical process to cause reactions with the benzene to form the solvent.
As far as cutting fluids, a different chlorinated compound is used, and it is being phased out in lieu of Greener friction reducers and EP compounds.
Is this enough to form sufficient hydrochloric acid to do serious harm to an engine in the combustion chamber? Would the small amount of blowby gases laden with hydrochloric acid be enough to cause harm in the crankcase? Or are the acid neutralizers in a good motor oil enough to render this small amount harmless?
I don't think there are enough chlorine molecules to form an acid, and yes the calcium and other acid neutralizers would take care of what might be there.
The chlorine is used in the chemical process to cause reactions with the benzene to form the solvent.
As far as cutting fluids, a different chlorinated compound is used, and it is being phased out in lieu of Greener friction reducers and EP compounds.
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