Composition of Marvel Mystery Oil

[ahoier]

The thing is, people are NOT doing "extended" oil change intervals (OCIs) with MMO in the crankcase.....most users of MMO are using the MMO in the crankcase in the range of 1-5k.....I don't think I've heard anyone going any further than that....?

I know Marvel and Turtle Wax keep the product fairly "open ended" and only state "how" to use it on the bottle, they don't give any suggested oil change interval but I'd think the product should be able to hold up for a reasonable OCI.....

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: ahoier
The thing is, people are NOT doing "extended" oil change intervals (OCIs) with MMO in the crankcase.....most users of MMO are using the MMO in the crankcase in the range of 1-5k.....I don't think I've heard anyone going any further than that....?

I know Marvel and Turtle Wax keep the product fairly "open ended" and only state "how" to use it on the bottle, they don't give any suggested oil change interval but I'd think the product should be able to hold up for a reasonable OCI.....


Correct!! Most people using MMO use it for cleaning an engine, and a servere service OCI would probably work best, lets say 3-5000 miles. It would be pointless to do an extended OCI. OTOH people who use MMO on a steady diet in a clean healthy engine could follow the mfg OCI w/o worries. It is not an extended drain product designed to be used for 25,000 mile OCI's. I had a similar conversation about this a while back with Rich Kelly the tech guy over at Turtle Wax.

 

[Mokanic]

It's the smell that sells it. Find me one oil chemist or tribologist that is for using chlorinated hydrocarbons in any crankcase oil. An engine by it's very nature produces water in the oil. Mix that with Chlorinated hydrocarbons and you get a really nice acid. We can argue all day about whether the amount will hurt anything. I don't want anymore acid buildup in my oil than can be helped. If any oil additive on here other than MMO was found out to use chlorine in it there would weeping,wailing,and gnashing of teeth. But since MMO is so cheap and it smells really nice it must be a good product. Yeah right.

 

[panthermike]

Originally Posted By: Mokanic
It's the smell that sells it. Find me one oil chemist or tribologist that is for using chlorinated hydrocarbons in any crankcase oil. An engine by it's very nature produces water in the oil. Mix that with Chlorinated hydrocarbons and you get a really nice acid. We can argue all day about whether the amount will hurt anything. I don't want anymore acid buildup in my oil than can be helped. If any oil additive on here other than MMO was found out to use chlorine in it there would weeping,wailing,and gnashing of teeth. But since MMO is so cheap and it smells really nice it must be a good product. Yeah right.



Smell has nothing to do with it, or at least I'd hope not. BTW, MMO contains 0-1% chlorinated hydrocarbons. I'm no tribologist but 0-1% seems pretty insignificant to me.

 

[demarpaint]

ADDED TO GASOLINE:
• Cleans and lubricates fuel injectors and carburetors.
• Improves gasoline mileage.
• Reduces and prevents varnish and gum build-up.
• Extends spark plug life.
• Safe for catalytic converters and oxygen sensors.
ADDED TO ENGINE OIL:
• Prevents valve sticking and clatter.
• Fortifies properties of engine oil, prevents breakdown
caused by extreme temperatures.
• Promotes easier cold weather starts.
• Reduces and prevents acid and sludge formation.

It reduces acid and sludge formation, it doesn't cause it

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: MONKEYMAN
In a 5,000 mile OCI I am topping off with about 9 quarts of oil. I would think I have plenty of TBN.


Have you thought about installing a drain plug? It keeps the oil inside the engine.

 

[Mokanic]

How can chlorinated hydrocarbons mixed with water reduce acids? Any technical info to support that? So how much Chlorine is acceptable?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mokanic
How can chlorinated hydrocarbons mixed with water reduce acids? Any technical info to support that? So how much Chlorine is acceptable?


Why not ask them? I didn't make it up. Mixing anything in a crankcase with water isn't good. Perhaps that minute amount has a positive effect on combating acids when combined with other chemicals in MMO. Have you actually tried the product? I'm just wondering, it seems you don't like additives very much, it shows up in your comments in the MMO and zMax threads.

 

[Familyguy]

Originally Posted By: Mokanic
How can chlorinated hydrocarbons mixed with water reduce acids? Any technical info to support that? So how much Chlorine is acceptable?


You're ASSUMING that the "chlorinated hydrocarbons" are even miscible with water. If the Chlorine is bound to a hydrocarbon molecule (which generally don't mix with water anyway), I'm all ears about how that tightly bound chlorine frees itself and joins the water commune. Do tell.

Best,

 

[Mokanic]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Mokanic
How can chlorinated hydrocarbons mixed with water reduce acids? Any technical info to support that? So how much Chlorine is acceptable?


Why not ask them? I didn't make it up. Mixing anything in a crankcase with water isn't good. Perhaps that minute amount has a positive effect on combating acids when combined with other chemicals in MMO. Have you actually tried the product? I'm just wondering, it seems you don't like additives very much, it shows up in your comments in the MMO and zMax threads.

I feel that if you read the thread on ZMax you'll see that I have not used it and admitted that I do not know if it works or not. As for MMO, yes, I have used it in the past before I learned what was in it AND befoe I read an independant double-blind study that showed strait dry(no additives) #2 diesel actually had better lubrication properties than the same diesel mixed with MMO. Would I ask MMO whether chlorine is harmful? No. I do not expect them to damage their product. I have read after tribolgists and lube chemists that will tell you that no amount of the stuff is good. If it were, all the major oil blenders would use it. It's far cheaper than some of the tech. they are using. Hey, if Molecule or Bruce381 will chime in and say using a cutting-fluid in engine crankcases is good then I will back up on my statements.
I do not hate additives.I actually have about a dozen bottles of Lubeguard Biotec in my shop now. They use no Chlorine cutting fluids in their additives and they do not market it as a fix-all for stuck rings, lifters,ect. Though I am using the Biotech in two vehicles, the reason for doing so is not to attempt to fix a mechanical issue. I want to see if their claims of extending oil life through less oxidation is valid in my applications. I have about 6 years of UOAs on all my farm equipment as well as two customers cars that will give me an idea whether the prduct truely does help in that regard.

 

[demarpaint]

I read the diesel study, we are talking about gasoline engines here, and the addition of MMO to oil in gas engines. There are UOA reports scattered about with MMO added to the oil and they were quite good. That's if you believe in UOA reports. The only issue I see with adding MMO is it is not good for extended drains. OTOH if you are cleaning up an engine doing an extended drain is not a good idea anyway. In many instances extended drains and neglect could be the cause of why people need to clean engines in the first place.

Here's a thought, since base oil composition is so top secret, for all we know there could be a very small % of Chloronated Hydrocarbons in some of them. Do we know for a fact if they are present or not? I don't, maybe someone here might. It is so minute in MMO, and they listed it themselves for all to see.

 

[Mokanic]

You can ask any of the major players(except EOM) and they will tell you that any amount of chlorine is a bad idea. You'll not even see the stuff too much longer due to health risks associated with it. I know that in the 80s chlorine was big in some magic oil additves but not much anymore. I am all for a guy like Molecule to speak up on the subject.
You know of the study on diesel fuel so you know that study was not biased. Although diesel injectors operate at much higher pressures the principle will still apply(if you could find gas that had no additives in it.) My contention is that MMO gets a free pass because it is cheap and smells good. I say it's a bad product based on the study I read and the fact that it contains chlorine. I am all for a tribolgist or an oil blender to correct me if I am wrong. That's not hate for all oil additives.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm going out on a limb here but I bet there might be a small % of the Chloronated Hydrocarbons in some base oils, a tiny % but some. The product works as advertised when following the directions.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
The product works as advertised when following the directions.


Maybe that's the part he has trouble with.

-Spyder

 

[ChuckBerry]

1,2-DICHLOROBENZENE

MAJOR USES

...formulations for motor oil additives...

SOURCE: http://www.chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/organic/O-DICHLOROBENZENE.htm

 

[demarpaint]

Thanks Chuck, I had a feeling it was used in base oils. I'm sure someone will say it 'was' used or try and cast doubt, but I think it is safe to say it is contained in many base oils or add packs as well. Keep in mind in very small amounts, perhaps to compliment or enhance another chemical or additive.

 

[edhackett]

Huh? Where does it say anything about base oils? It clearly says motor oil additives. Those are things like MMO, Rislone, and any other additive(engine flush)designed to clean.

The harmful acid by-products from chlorinated hydrocarbons are formed in the combustion chamber. HCl is formed, some of which makes it back into the crank-case via blow-by. Small amounts are handled by the TBN, larger amounts can quickly overwhelm the TBN and result in serious corrosion problems. The rest is swept out the exhaust, most likely doing no good for the exhaust valve and exhaust system.

I'm curious as to why MMO as never received FAA certification for its product. It certainly is popular with the aviation crowd despite being illegal to use.

I have my suspicions, one being that it can't pass the "do no harm" when it comes to corrosion. Aviation oils don't have "TBN", which requires ash forming additives. Any HCl that makes it to the crankcase would cause corrosion problems. Corrosion is an issue with piston aircraft already, due to the oil and typical duty cycle, which often involves long periods of inactivity.


Ed

 

[demarpaint]

It says nothing about base oils, I guess I was asking a question of sorts, early on before that link was posted. Since base oils is are big secret in the industry I would think only insiders or people who can reverse engineer oil really know what is going into base oils.

IIRC MMO never looked for FFA approval because it was too expensive, and many people were using it in the aviation community anyway. Sort like certain oil companies not seeking API approvals, but still claiming to meet or beat the specs. Only in this case MMO says nothing about aviation use, probably not worth the risk to them to even mention it. Smart business IMO, it sure keeps their costs down.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: panthermike
BTW, MMO contains 0-1% chlorinated hydrocarbons. I'm no tribologist but 0-1% seems pretty insignificant to me.


1% = 10,000 ppm. Is 10,000 ppm insignificant?

 

[edhackett]

A good base oil will contain nothing but pure hydrocarbons, just carbon and hydrogen. Elements such as S, P, O, or any of the halogens are reactive and degrade the oil over time. That's why as we've progressed along from group I solvent extracted oils to group III and III+ and on to group IV and V base oils we have gotten better performing, longer lasting oils. Each progression gives a purer, less reactive base.

Chlorinated hydrocarbons are excellent solvents, chlorinated paraffins are excellent lubricants for specific uses. Neither play well when you add in combustion or the by-products of combustion.

The amount of chlorinated hydrocarbons in MMO is small, but I believe, an important factor in its cleaning ability. I have used, and will continue to use MMO for short term uses, like a several hour OCI on my 1941 John Deere when I fire it back up. The dichlorobenzene content tells me that it may not be something I want to use on a long term basis.

Ed