Collapsed filter media revisited

[lubeowner]

Before the topic was locked in the other thread I think it is important for anyone reading it to understand that the original poster complained about COLLAPSED MEDIA, not center tube collapse as FG refers to. Media collapse seems to plague many Fram and Champ filters, and IMO is due to failure of the bond to the endcap, resulting from cut-corner manufacturing processes in both E-core and metal endcap filters. I have seen collapsed media in both types.

With the Fram's it seems to collapse due to the cardboard endcap weakening and distorting due to the fact it is not secure to the center tube, and the media is about as strong as a wet paper towel after use.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

I have also noticed a couple of trends in the typical damage the Frams and cheap Champs show.
Frams show distinct “blow-throughs” where the media is blowing through individual holes in the centertube. The pleats looks spread out in a more rounded manner. Looks like the media is softened enough to allow that to happen. A larger number of smaller diameter holes, and additional media area/more pleats might help with that symptom.
Cheap Champs typically show a couple of distinct failures. 1-The pleats are either split at the inward or outward creases, or 2-The pleats are torn at the ends where they glue into the endcaps, usually where the uneven pleat spacing allows uneven flow distribution.
The ecores seem to be most typically showing a bad seal at the “thermo-bonded” endcaps, resulting in the pleats not having any support at the ends and showing movement/collapse of those loose pleats.

 

[Filter guy]

Well it is nice that someone has come up with a new term..collapsed media. As there is no such term in the filter industry. If one would like to review the technical service bulletins.

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/index.php

And if one actually reads the one about collapsed center tubes, it does mention damage to the media. The same reasons for a collapsed center tube also can cause media failures. The questions at what pressure levels does that take? It takes more pressure to collapse the center tube. Media damage "may" occur first. It just depends on if there has been a catastophic failure which can be a one time event. Every time a center tube collapses, media has been damaged. Every time!

In any event there are a combination of factors which will lead to ripped or torn pleats. The same grades of media are used in multi-millions of filters per brand. If a particular media was not up to snuff it would soon be apparent. The occasional or odd occurance would tend to lay the fault at the individual conditions that particular element has seen. Not at a particular media itself.

The ONLY way for media to be blown through the center tube holes is because of excess pressure. It is not the fault of the media. Anyone who takes time out to think what it would take for a media to deform in that manner would easily come to that conclusion. The next line of logic would be what caused the excess pressure problem.

As has been explained by others in the various threads, oil within the filter exerts a constant pressure on the entire media when flowing. Incoming oil does not exert X pressure on one particular pleat and XX pressure on a differnt pleat. Whether there are 30 pleats on 75 pleats makes no difference. Whether there is pleat gaps or not. Oil is flowing through the entire filter media.

An excess pressure problem will find a weak spot however. Hence why there are torn/ripped pleats or collapsed center tubes. Or filters being blown off the filter base. Or filters ballooning up. Or gaskets rolling over the gasket retaining ring and causing a leak.

This is not speculation. Filter companies have 40-50 years of testing and have a pretty good idea what causes media problems. Not one filter company in the US would want a media problem, nor wish it on their competitor. Neither would the media suppliers.

Resume normal programming...

 

[rg144]

Isn't the filter's bypass valve is supposed to prevent 1)media failure 2)center tube collapse 3)media seam rupture 4)pleat peforations, and prevent any media/debris from entering the engine? Isn't that part of filter design 101?

 

[Winston]

quote:

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From ZR2; Frams show distinct “blow-throughs” where the media is blowing through individual holes in the centertube. The pleats looks spread out in a more rounded manner. Looks like the media is softened enough to allow that to happen. A larger number of smaller diameter holes, and additional media area/more pleats might help with that symptom.
Cheap Champs typically show a couple of distinct failures. 1-The pleats are either split at the inward or outward creases, or 2-The pleats are torn at the ends where they glue into the endcaps, usually where the uneven pleat spacing allows uneven flow distribution.
The Ecores seem to be most typically showing a bad seal at the “thermo-bonded” endcaps, resulting in the pleats not having any support at the ends and showing movement/collapse of those loose pleats.

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Excellent summary of the weak design points of these filters.

sfs

 

[ZR2RANDO]

rg144,
The filter's bypass valve IS supposed to prevent those problems, if it actually works.
The cheap Champs that typically show the after-use damage are the models that have the "clicker" bypass valves. The Frams just don't have much media in the first place, with a bypass valve that doesn't seem to be capable of bypassing enough oil.
The damages that these cheap Champs (old and ecore design both) and Frams have been showing are due to poor design/manufacturing.
Filter Guy can rant all he wants, he can defend crap filters till the day he dies.
Nevertheless, cheap Champs and Frams keep showing up routinely in the
“can’t do the job” category.

 

[Filter guy]

Rando..and you have what statistics to back up your claim?

Please provide the stats on "cheap" Champs or Frams, rather than generalities.

Champ has built near 100 million clicker valve filters. So please tell us..all of us..just how many of those filters failed.

Just because someone selectively posts pictures with little or no information on the vehicle they were used on does not mean there is a "widespread" problem.

You obviously ignore empirical evidence from all those who post in here who claim they have not had a problem.

So why do some posters not have a problem and but yet there is a picture or two of ones that have had problems. What is the difference? Why did that occur to the ones with problems. What data do you have on the failed ones that would help us all analyze the failure.

And WHY since the first posting of a picture of a failed Warner filter..WHY...have posters in this forum who cut open filters who use Champ products, even clicker valve style, on a weekly if not daily basis post their failed filter pics as well. Because quite a number of people in this forum are opening their filters. So why aren't they seeing the same problem. Are they only changing their oil at 3,000 miles or less? or do you claim that people in here never go beyond 3,000 miles on Champ filters?
( and fwiw..I receive pm's and emails where people say they aren't seeing any problems but don't want to get in the midlle of the debate. Because they don't want to be accused of taking sides as a few in here might do. The lastest being someone who's cut open three Super Tech filters, all went over 3,000 miles, none had problems and each had 54 pleats. So where are all those who have the "failures" and why don't they post them?)

And without data, there can be no analysis of the factors involved in the failure. But that might ruin your rantings if people were given the facts..


I will continue to offer, as lubeowner has been the main protagonist of what he see's and the few pictures he's posted, to go to his shop and he can cut open filters and show me what he's finding. I will also offer him the availability to cut open my filter ( e-core type). So far he's refused my offer. I'll leave the speculation to others as to why. I continually offer..

 

[wavinwayne]

I have a question for you guys:

Since Mobil 1 claims that no special oil filter is required for use with their 15k mile EP synthetics, how should we expect a Fram Extra Guard, or any other lower-end filter to perform over a 15k mile interval?

 

[TurboJim]

quote:

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Originally posted by wavinwayne:
I have a question for you guys:

Since Mobil 1 claims that no special oil filter is required for use with their 15k mile EP synthetics, how should we expect a Fram Extra Guard, or any other lower-end filter to perform over a 15k mile interval?

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I've been wondering the same thing. You might get away with it... you might not. One thing to consider though is that Mobil is providing the guarantee on the oil, but it's doubtful you'll find a filter that will have a similar 15,000 life claim. Unless of course 15,000 OCI falls within the engine manufacturer's recomendations.

Perhaps when the new Mobil 1 filter comes out they'll market the EP oil and filter as a package.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Phoenix:
I agree, if the only way to damage filters is excessive pressure on the media, then the bypass valves are defective and not doing what it is supposed to do, which is a manufacture issue and not an end user issue.

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Well said, there is nothing a car owner using the proper viscosity oil in a correctly functioning engine should be able to do to cause a filter element to fail.

 

[Winston]

quote:

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I have a question for you guys:

Since Mobil 1 claims that no special oil filter is required for use with their 15k mile EP synthetics, how should we expect a Fram Extra Guard, or any other lower-end filter to perform over a 15k mile interval?

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Fram Extra gaurd will frequently fail before 5k. So it will fail before 15k too.

I do not think filters get that loaded up in 5k, 10k or even 15k. That is why they say no special filter is required.

 

[Ugly3]

More than one car maker is recommending 15,000 mile (and more) oil filter changes. They obviously believe the spec'd filters will perform that long.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
More than one car maker is recommending 15,000 mile (and more) oil filter changes. They obviously believe the spec'd filters will perform that long.

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The European manufacturers are specifying the filters too. For the (up to 25K mile) Mercedes-Benz oil change interval using 229.5 spec oil, they require the use of a special "fleece" oil filter made by Mann+Hummel. It's a 100% plastic cartridge with 100% polyester media.

http://www.mann-hummel.com/company/upload/doc/HBAAEJwjOMP.pdf

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by y_p_w:

Originally posted by Ugly3:
[qb] Mercedes-Benz oil change interval using 229.5 spec oil, they require the use of a special "fleece" oil filter

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Think any of those fleece filters have gone baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad?

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Originally posted by Phoenix:
I agree, if the only way to damage filters is excessive pressure on the media, then the bypass valves are defective and not doing what it is supposed to do, which is a manufacture issue and not an end user issue.
What percentage of auto owners or even oil change shops cut open filters?
I would venture a very very small fraction of a percent.
Every failure reported here represents tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands failures that are unknown.
Something to think about.

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Ridiculous! We all know that LubeOwner gets the ONLY filter failures of the millions of filters manufactured.

 

[Filter guy]

Originally posted by Phoenix:
I agree, if the only way to damage filters is excessive pressure on the media, then the bypass valves are defective and not doing what it is supposed to do, which is a manufacture issue and not an end user issue.

I'm glad you can say that with a straight face. So the only way a by-pass valve can fail is because it was defective. Wonder how you'll do explaining to some GM owners who have theirs in the block and the by-pass fails after 50 or 100,000 miles or so (or maybe never). If one of their valves takes that long to fail, why do you think the same construction in a filter which is changed every oil change can't last? But even if the construction is different, what circumstances would lead to a particular failure? Just a bad part according to you. You may want to consider what can lodge in the by-pass valve to cause a problem. Try reading the collapsed center bulletin and contaminant lodging in the oil pressure regulating valve for instance. But nah..it's just a bad part that's all it can be. Ho-ho-ho

What percentage of auto owners or even oil change shops cut open filters?
More than you would know.

I would venture a very very small fraction of a percent.
Comparatively to everyone who owns a vehicle your right. But a significant percent still do. Much like polls don't need to poll every voter, you can get a representative sample from those who do. In fact sometimes filter companies will routinely do it themselves. Either in conjunction with some customers or when new product is in the field testing phase, they'll be returned for anylsis. Which will included cutting the filters open. ( but then again they have all the data on the filters use)

Every failure reported here represents tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands failures that are unknown.

You may be onto something. But by the same token as every filter company has a warranty department which will have X amount of filters returned annually, they all EQUALLY have Y amount in your category.

Something to think about.

Agreed..

 

[Phoenix]

quote:

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You may want to consider what can lodge in the by-pass valve to cause a problem. Try reading the collapsed center bulletin and contaminant lodging in the oil pressure regulating valve for instance. But nah..it's just a bad part that's all it can be.

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I would say a filters job is to filter out contaminants including what can lodge in the bullet proof space age nasa approved champion bypass valve. If something that size is circulating then there are much bigger problems in this soon to expire engine that has chunks large enough to damage the valve.
On second thought.... I'll take poor design for 100, Alex.

quote:

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Much like polls don't need to poll every voter, you can get a representative sample from those who do.

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The BITOG representative poll reported here says that these failed filters represent problematic construction in astonishing levels of representation.

quote:

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What percentage of auto owners or even oil change shops cut open filters?
More than you would know.

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Automotive shops? Jiffy Lube types of shops? Sears? Costco? Pep Boys? Dealerships?
That would be news to everyone here that most shops cut open filters.
How about some hard data on franchise shops that cut open filters as a regular practice.
Or is that claim yet another assumption on your part?

 

[Phoenix]

I agree, if the only way to damage filters is excessive pressure on the media, then the bypass valves are defective and not doing what it is supposed to do, which is a manufacture issue and not an end user issue.
What percentage of auto owners or even oil change shops cut open filters?
I would venture a very very small fraction of a percent.
Every failure reported here represents tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands failures that are unknown.
Something to think about.

 

[Winston]

quote:

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Phoenix; Every failure reported here represents tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands failures that are unknown.
Something to think about.

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Good point.

 

[Filter guy]

Phoenix..

I handled a warranty case where someone put on an oil filter after having his engine rebuilt. It didn't last 2 days and his engine trashed. Naturally he was upset and I gave him the address to send the filter in which he did, next day air. As he had just spent about 10 grand on his engine.

The lab inspected the filter and it had collapsed, as the owner had said. When the filter was cut open there was "media type material" as the owner had said all over the inside of the filter which he also said was all over the inside of his engine.

However, the lab quickly diagnosed the problem. Someone, somehow, had left a shop rag in the engine and it had been torn to shreads and sent through the lube system. As shop rag material under microscope is easily distinguished from filter media.

I called him back and said i'd be happy to fax him a service report. Which I did. What he did from there is between him and the service department that worked on his engine.

I explained that he needed to makes sure the entire engine was cleaned of the material including his by-pass valve which was in his engine block in this case.


When this happened I said in the lab, this is unsual. And was told it is unusual but that wasn't the first time nor the last that we would ever see that problem. It was news to me but not to the warranty department head ( since retired) who had seen that specific problem plenty of times. (Another unusual to you but not unusual to the lab is rubber/gasket pieces being lodged in the by-pass. Naturally, the rubber/gasket componenets are checked that are part of the filter itself but those end up not being the problem. So guess where the rubber/gasket material came from?)

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The filter is supposed to remove contaminant but it's time for you to understand that the filter media is designed to remove contaminant in the 1-40 micron range. LARGE pieces of contaminant will not be trapped by the media and it is these size particles that can wedge into the by-pass valve.

If you know something about contaminant sizes, 40 microns is the lower limit of visibility at 20/20 vision. So if you can see the particle, it is to large to be trapped by the media itself generally. If particles that size make it to the filter, the larger particles should drop into the bottom of the can ( provided the filter hangs straight down). However the turbulence of the oil flow can keep them in suspension and potentially lodge in the by-pass itself. The filter did it's job of stopping the contaminant of going further but the by-pass can't be built ---bullet proof-- to somehow magically dislodge large pieces of contaminant that may lodge there. If you can come up with a by-pass design that does that you'll make serious money with the patent.

Have you ever dropped your own oil pan and seen what is in there? Are there pieces or particles large enough to see in there?

It time you understood the entire lube system and what can be present in the oil. It is NOT the filters fault large pieces of contaminent are present. It is not the filters job to trap those large pieces of contaminant because they should not be present in the first place. That is not part of engine design. However, over time stuff happens due to individual use or maintenance of the vehicle and there can be large pieces at some point in time present.
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Good for the BITOG poll...but you missed the point. It is not the polling of a few individuals in here that I was talking about.

It is the actual posting of problematic filters which is the sample used to measure versus the amount of filters in use on vehicles. That is the "Poll".

Which is why I would like those who say that certain brands/ designs/ or whatever are problems can tell us what data they used to come to that conclusion? Three pictures in this forum over a one year time frame versus the 100 million ( or more) filters built of a design. You do the math.

But what I was saying is that there are posters who saw the very first picture of the bad filter and wondered what their own filter was like. Those people have cut open their filters and pray tell how many have posted a filter with holes or tears in them from forumites own personal use?
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I don't have actual specifics. I know that individuals, like those in here do cut open their filters. Even before the internet people did that.

It is more common in the trucking industry to do that. Some fleets do it as a rule. ( the same media grades used in their filters are used in car filters)


Some Valvoline shops do cut open filters. As Champ build Valvoline filters. I did a training senminar in their corporate training center in Ashland Kentucky and was told by them that they have quick lubes who do that. How many? Ask them...

I personally didn't call around asking every client of Champ who does and who doesn't cut filters open.

My point was, it IS more than you think. But obviously, as I said, compared to the 400-500 million filters in use on a daily basis it isn't the majority of people. But it is enough to get a good feel for what is or isn't going on.