Can MMO Do Everything FP60 Does?

[Terry]

vairox, no one is going to tell you or anyone else what is in any proprietary formulation. Even if you think they did. Reality of the business, very competitive and once the competition knows chemically what you have they will copy it. I would say that after 5 years of testing and hundreds of oil analysis reports I can say confidently that LC and FP, have tremendous anti oxidation, lowering NOx, insolubles, and solids when used properly. MPG gains vary because driving conditions,unit condition and level of upkeep varies. It also has been shown to be a EP add. I watched Bob Winters crank on LC fluid in a TIMKEN bearing tester here in our shop and he as a Schaeffers rep was impressed.

FP3000 is a recently EPA registered fuel add that is undergoing detailed OTR, and engine test stand emissions, fuel economy, and ASTM fuels testing for use in BOTH diesels and gasoline applications.

The product thus far has exceeded CAT fuel standards for both diesel and gasoline fuel applications.

I have not been hired to test MMO but stand ready to do so and share what I am allowed here.Just as I have since the inception of this site!

Terry

 

[vairox]

quote:

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vairox, no one is going to tell you or anyone else what is in any proprietary formulation. Even if you think they did. Reality of the business, very competitive and once the competition knows chemically what you have they will copy it.

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no one person, but machines don't lie and san diego state has a lot in the chem lab...

 

[Terry]

Vairox, please share any testing on LC/FP you can procure here at BITOG.

BTW MSDS does not disclose all ingredients of any formulation, only those that impacts packing and shipping.

Would love to see SD states testing. "Machines" test data must be interpreted.

BTW is MMO, EPA registered ?

 

[vairox]

they use gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, liquid chromatography, and a bunch of other junk i could neither spell nor comprehend... i know a professor over there, he always analyzes stuff for fun, once did methamphetamine to see what else they put in it...pretty shocking... i don't think i would buy lc/fp or autorx just to analyze it though, waste of $ in my opinion

whats the msds on lc/fp ?

 

[wiswind]

Variox,
My bottle of FP60 says the MSDS is available on their website. I'm pretty sure that they sent one with my order.
Not that I would know what I was looking at from an engine protection standpoint.

I could tear my engine apart and look to see how it is wearing....but I wouldn't know what I was looking at....and would surely do more damage than going on blind faith.

There is the chemistry of the product, and then there is the chemistry in the engine.....the oil, and fuel, etc.

I rely heavily on how my vehicle seems to run, and on what I can read up on from people who I think know what they are talking about.
I have learned a lot on this site.....have FP60 in the gas tank and ARX in my oil right now.
But I will be honest......it is on blind faith in what I have read, and how my vehicle seems to run.

So, in a nutshell.....thanks to all for the great information..... and keep posting more.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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until the ingredients of lc are known no one can tell, i would say yeah.... burden of proof is on those who say no.

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I assume that applies to Redline, Xentx, MMO, and Mobil 1 as well?

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

I went for FP a couple of weeks ago. By the dosage, it made more sense than Techron which I am fond of.

Since I have no beater to report on anecdotal difference, I'll take Terry's word on this as gospel.

He's seemed to do a pretty good job around here so what the heck.

 

[unDummy]

EPA is the environmental protection agency. They are not the ENGINE protection agency. Most of the goldeagle products are EPA certified, and we don't have anything nice to say about them. I lost the link to the list of those products EPA certified. It was a long list. MTBE was also on that list. Anyone with well water knows that EPA certification means nothing.

EPA registered, IMO, isn't a selling point; maybe a marketing point for the small minded consumer.

The end product is more then the sum of its parts can be said about any product including MMO which might just be more then solvents and light oils. It too can be something greater then the MSDS lets us believe.

I am not a stockholder in MMO or any other product. But, some of the fancy rhetoric with certain products and the constant attacks on other products gets boring.

 

[vairox]

mmo has an msds, they may change their formula like we change socks but for the most part it's disclosed.... never heard of xentx, mobile 1 is just oil.

 

[Terry]

unDummy, you bring up a cogent point about discussing EPA testing. CFR40 Registration is one thing and certification is another. All fuel adds must now be registered with the EPA and it is no cake walk to get a chemistry through that hurdle. MTBE would not make it now. Registration is not certification and can not be used for marketing reasons. I do not think that LCD inc. will attempt EPA certification mostly for cost reasons not to mention exact reasons you mention.

If you are offended by ME sharing what I have been working ( in the sense that I am marketing) then I am sorry to leave you with that impression. I am first and foremost a tribologist and marketing be ****ed if honesty and compromise are part of the equation.

I am genuinely excited about working a product from theory to the customer.

Since inception my contribution here has been from that angle.

By now you should know who is full of it and who at BITOG delivers honestly. Being a open forum I suppose it is hard to control what is said about various products but if you want MMO broken down, show me the money and we'll get it done, openly and honestly.

 

[vairox]

quote:

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if you want MMO broken down, show me the money and we'll get it done, openly and honestly.

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thats cool, do you offer this with ALL products?

 

[Shannow]

vairox,
look at what Terry and board members achieved with Green Castrol.

Rustle up enough interested members, and they'll do it.

 

[vairox]

i don't doubt it, all i'm saying is does the testing go for ALL products....meaning all information found out through testing will be disclosed?

 

[LS1-CAMARO]

quote:

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Even if you think they did. Reality of the business, very competitive and once the competition knows chemically what you have they will copy it.

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Seems to me that with the correct Instrumentation, one could figure out the formula to a high degree of certinty. A GC/MS, IR and ICP or AA should give a good start. Knowing the standard analytical techniques of the industy and having access to instrumentation and a chemist should be all you need. Anyone who is a competitor of these companies should possess these.

 

[vairox]

quote:

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Knowing the standard analytical techniques of the industy and having access to instrumentation and a chemist should be all you need. Anyone who is a competitor of these companies should possess these.

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which means the fear is either irrational or stems from not having a patent IMO... it isn't hard to find out what is in what these days... it's not like we are gonna start our own sheep farm to harvest lanolin for our engines... wow.

 

[BrianWC]

Baaaahhh!

I don't know, they still haven't figured out the secret formula for Coca-Cola or what exactly the Colonel's 11 herbs and spices are, have they?

Ohh, I shouldn't talk about chicken at 12pm on a Sunday.

 

[Terry]

"thats cool, do you offer this with ALL products?"

Any product that I am not specifically under secrecy or non disclosure agreement to break down and you'll pay more than someone else to do the science.

BTW a patent in fuels,lubes,additive, chemistry is an invitation to being copied in this business, unless you have lots of money to litigate or crush the competition/offender. Being Naive about this subject won't protect you or your product.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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i don't doubt it, all i'm saying is does the testing go for ALL products....meaning all information found out through testing will be disclosed?

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Why should it? Think about this hypothetical scenario:

You formulate a motor oil, ASTM test it, engine test it, and then fleet test it.

In one of the fleet tests you find good anti-wear capabilities, but oxidation went out of control.

You reformulate it and retest and all is hunky dory.

If someone from outside reads the report and isn't familiar with the chemistry of the oil and tribology of the engine, then he can get on the internet and really trash the oil before it even gets to market simply because of his lack of understanding about chemistry, tribology, and the whole testing process.

In addition, disclosing the test results could give information to competitors.


Product information will be disclosed according to certain ethical guidelines in case of BITOG tests.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Very few here doubt the probity of either Terry or MolaKule and I doubt that vairox does either.

 

[Thermo1223]

Since where on the topic pulling things apart to see what they are made of...GC was proved to not contain any moly correct?

I ask because well my last change did and it was weird to say the least.

Also I have used MMO for lots of different things, it definetly has a certain minty odor and will produce the same odor in a smoke screen when over used in a 2-cycle engine. It also seemed to clean the crown of the piston a little when I looked in the bore. Before it was completely black but the overdose wore away some carbon and left a suprisingly clean spot. It also looked to lossen some on the remaining carbon.

I also procured a "Smokeless" 2 stroke oil which actually does live up to it's claim. No matter the concentration. No smoke at idle and very little on a 32:1, less then it had before. Take a pic if anyone cares.