MolaKule
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I have heard that about you, Mr. Widman!
Brief History of ATFs
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I have heard that about you, Mr. Widman!
Some more information on the older transmissions from GM and Chrysler.
General Motors produced the Dynaflow, a manually shifted two speed automatic for Buicks only. It was left in Drive except on steep hills, or when engine braking or a fast takeoff was desired. I had 2 cars with it. It wound up making its way into some 1953 Cadillacs, Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs due to a fire in the Hydra Matic plant sometime in 1953. i ahd 2 Buicks with Dynaflow, the latter being ain a 1955 Buick Roadmaster, which sported a variable pitch torque converter, aka Switch Pitch. The Switch Pitch feature did work, but takeoff in the 2.5 ton behemoth was still anemic in Drive. I had to shift to Low for a takeoff with any alacrity at all.
Hydram Matic was a four speed automatic transmission found in Cadillacs, Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles. It had either one or two fluid couplings, no torque converter, and had to be
retuned when the weather changed. It required MANY special tools and much skill to maintain. The early Hydra Matics had no park position, reverse range doubling as park when the engine was turned off.
Chrysler´s first fully automatic was the Powerflite, introduced in 1954, also came without a park position. There was a tailshaft mounted parking/emergency brake for keeping the car from rolling when parked. It was a two speed automatic, initially operated by a central dash mounted lever which was also effective for impaling passengers in high impact frontal collisions, hence the move to pushbuttons. I had a 1958 Dodge Coronet with pushbutton shift, and it work flawlessly even during winter in New England. The first Chrysler automatics, the two speed Powerflite and the three speed Torqueflite, introduced in 1956, had cast iron cases, came apart in three main pieces, and were relatively simple and effective, as much as an automatic transmission could be in the 1950shaving no clutches and operable on 20W motor oil if required. This transmission and the first Torqueflite had a reverse lockout which worked above 10mph, and I did test the one in my Dodge.
General Motors produced the Dynaflow, a manually shifted two speed automatic for Buicks only. It was left in Drive except on steep hills, or when engine braking or a fast takeoff was desired. I had 2 cars with it. It wound up making its way into some 1953 Cadillacs, Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs due to a fire in the Hydra Matic plant sometime in 1953. i ahd 2 Buicks with Dynaflow, the latter being ain a 1955 Buick Roadmaster, which sported a variable pitch torque converter, aka Switch Pitch. The Switch Pitch feature did work, but takeoff in the 2.5 ton behemoth was still anemic in Drive. I had to shift to Low for a takeoff with any alacrity at all.
Hydram Matic was a four speed automatic transmission found in Cadillacs, Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles. It had either one or two fluid couplings, no torque converter, and had to be
retuned when the weather changed. It required MANY special tools and much skill to maintain. The early Hydra Matics had no park position, reverse range doubling as park when the engine was turned off.
Chrysler´s first fully automatic was the Powerflite, introduced in 1954, also came without a park position. There was a tailshaft mounted parking/emergency brake for keeping the car from rolling when parked. It was a two speed automatic, initially operated by a central dash mounted lever which was also effective for impaling passengers in high impact frontal collisions, hence the move to pushbuttons. I had a 1958 Dodge Coronet with pushbutton shift, and it work flawlessly even during winter in New England. The first Chrysler automatics, the two speed Powerflite and the three speed Torqueflite, introduced in 1956, had cast iron cases, came apart in three main pieces, and were relatively simple and effective, as much as an automatic transmission could be in the 1950shaving no clutches and operable on 20W motor oil if required. This transmission and the first Torqueflite had a reverse lockout which worked above 10mph, and I did test the one in my Dodge.
Good info. It's often said that Olds had the first conventional Automatic. But most people don't know that Buick had the first Automatic with a torque converter. The switch-pitch was also a Buick exclusive. I always wondered why it never caught on.
-T
It was less efficient so all else being equal, performance and economy weren't as good as an automatic that used different gear ranges.
A bit of trivia. Torque converters were invented in Germany before WW I by Hermann Foetenger.
Before 1930 another German, Reiseler "equipped several Buicks and Mercedes with two-turbine torque converters with two speed planetary tranmissions" (Changing Gears, Philip G. Golt).
Around 1930 torque converter tranmissions started showing up in European rail cars.
The de Normanville 4 speed planetary plus torque converter transmission was available on the English Humber in 1935. It was hydraulically shifted but the drive still had to select each gear with a R-N-1-2-3-4-C (coast) shift quadrant. It did allow full power shifts.
Buick's Dynaflow hit production in 1948
Packard's Ultramatic had a TC lockup cluth in 1949.
Chevy's Powerglide came out in 1950. It was simmilat to the Dynaflow and normally driven with through the torque converter only with low gear being only manually selected. In 1953 Powerglide goat automatic shifting.
MolaKule
Staff member
Thanks XS.
Anyone with AT history please submit.
Anyone with AT history please submit.
Just 7 years ago I worked with a guy that drove a Dodge Dart with the push button trany on the dash. It was his daily driver and was all origanal. The IRS took everything he had so he bought that dart in Seatle out of someones old barn for less then $500.00. It had a small slant six and a 1 or 2 barrel carb. Everything worked on it. It must have been sitting in that barn at least 20 years. THe glass had turned yellow. He worked one job to pay the IRS and did the construction work under the table to eat.
Construction was on of the many seasonal jobs I did in college. They paid cash and did not report anything!
Construction was on of the many seasonal jobs I did in college. They paid cash and did not report anything!
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the short lived Chevrolet Turboglide, first introduced in 1957, and cancelled in 1961.
They have a reputation of being a junk design, and many replaced them with powerglides.
[ May 05, 2004, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: novadude ]
Note: I am 99% sure this trans was used with the 348 ci engine in 58-61 too.
They have a reputation of being a junk design, and many replaced them with powerglides.
[ May 05, 2004, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: novadude ]
I experimented with my Ford manual that specs ATF. 20w50 motor oil locked it up so it would hardly go into gear. But 10w40 motor oil worked fine. In fact, I asked the service department and they told me 10w40 motor oil would be OK.
I currently have Mobil 1 ATF in my Ford manual tranny. You once recommended I run Redline MTL or (forgot the other one) instead. But Redline recommends their ATF for my manual tranny instead of the MTL. Maybe I should run 10w40 synthetic motor oil instead (as I noted in my previous post).
But what has really been bugging me is why is ATF red? I know they add a dye but why did they decide to do that? Was it so some idiot would not fill his crankcase with ATF?
[ May 19, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: TallPaul ]
MolaKule
Staff member
TallPaul,
If you run ATF in your manual tranny, then by all means use the Redline 10 cSt Racing Fluid that is a replacement for the Ford Type F.
ATF is dyed red to identify leaks associated with hydraulic systems.
If you run ATF in your manual tranny, then by all means use the Redline 10 cSt Racing Fluid that is a replacement for the Ford Type F.
ATF is dyed red to identify leaks associated with hydraulic systems.
Thanks MolaKule. My owner's manual says to put Mercon in the manual tranny. The Redline for Mercon is their D4 ATF (Mercon, Dextron), but they say I could run the MTL. I will call them and see which would be better. I assume that tossing the Mobil 1 Mercon ATF after 15,000 miles is OK. With 110,000 miles on the tranny I'd like to get the Redline in their sooner than later, especially to see if it gets rid of some of the notchy shifting (though I have heard that a Hurst shifter also would help--will try Redline first).
In addition to what MolaKule said, think of the mechanics. They're dealing with 20 zillion types of fluid every day. If they're all the same color and consistency, it would take much more effort to identify the particular fluid. Dying the various fluids, including trans, coolant, etc, makes them easier to identify and provides for less chance of a mistake. It's a good safety feature.
MolaKule
Staff member
TallPaul,
I think MTL or the Synthetic Racing Type F would be better choices since they have higher viscosities than the D4.
[ May 21, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
I think MTL or the Synthetic Racing Type F would be better choices since they have higher viscosities than the D4.
[ May 21, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
I remember the Turboglide. I believe this was a triple turbine torque convertor which allowed three separate torque multiplication ratios and the smooth transition from one to the other was due to the over-running clutches on the stators so there was no perceptable shifting through the range. This was an evolution of Buicks Twin turbine Dynaflow. This design would not allow back driving for engine braking so there was a mechanism for dissipating energy when coasting down a hill. That was the HR (Hill Retarder) position on the shifter. Too many people thought this stood for High Range so they changed it to GR (Grade Retarder). I understand that if one applied the gas while actually using the grade retarder the transmission would self destruct. While very smooth all of these designs allowed a great deal of slippage in the converter which pretty much nullified any advantage that these complex mechanisms had to offer. I remember the hydramatics which used a fluid coupling rather than a torque converter and these had remarkabley little slippage. They almost felt like a mechanical connection. They later versions of those hydramatics were also remarkabley smooth shifting and efficient. Makes you wonder why torque convertors came to rule the roost. The hydramatics, while more complex than the dynaflows, would not only outperform the dynaflows but were also longer lasting.
MolaKule
Staff member
Thanks Ed,
Maybe you could expand on your statement. A torque converter is one form of fluid coupling. What kind (what was the mechanism) of fluid coupling you're referring to?
Thanks. I have 4 qts of Redline D4 ATF coming today for my manual tranny. Redline said that is what I should use and their literature says it is similar to MTL but thinner. Over and above the Mobil 1 it should have the better antiwear and better frictional characteristics. We'll see how it works and report back.
MolaKule
Staff member
OOOOK!
But the MTL has 10 times the AW and EP additives over the D4 OR the M1 ATF's, with a viscosity of only 3 cSt higher than most ATF's.
But the MTL has 10 times the AW and EP additives over the D4 OR the M1 ATF's, with a viscosity of only 3 cSt higher than most ATF's.
The Redline data sheet indicate that D4 and MTL are both API GL-4 level antiwear additives. Are you thinking of Redline's regular synthetic ATF which I believe is GL-3?
Redline, in their MTL brochure, recommends D4 instead of MTL in trannys calling for ATF, saying the D4 ATF is "very similar to MTL, being a GL-4 Gear Oil also. The D4 will provide better low-temperature shiftability, and the MTL would provide better wear protection for racing use." So the better wear protection for racing must be in the thicker viscosity. One of the problems I have is with low temperature shifting. So I guess it is a compromise, but hopefully it will improve shifting. I installed the fluid today and did a 5 mile run. Seemed better, but really not enough time to tell.
Thanks for your input. You may be right that the MTL would work in the Mazda tranny, but I guess I sort of chickened out.
Another oddity in automatic transmission history was the VW "Auto-Stick" introduced in 1968. It combined a conventional manual transaxle with a vacuum-actuated conventional clutch and a torque converter. My ex had one of these nightmares.
It worked similar to the early Powerglide in that there was no automatic gear shifting and you could just leave the gear selector in high for incredibly slow acceleration from the 50hp engine. The main "advantage" was no clutch pedal.
First gear was removed from the transaxle, making it a three speed. A microswitch in the shift knob actutated a vacuum solenoid releasing the clutch for manual shifting. The torque converter ATF was circulated by an engine-mounted oil pump, ganged to the engine oil pump. An oil temperature switch would alert the driver to downshift if the torque converter was overheating. There was no oil cooler.
It worked similar to the early Powerglide in that there was no automatic gear shifting and you could just leave the gear selector in high for incredibly slow acceleration from the 50hp engine. The main "advantage" was no clutch pedal.
First gear was removed from the transaxle, making it a three speed. A microswitch in the shift knob actutated a vacuum solenoid releasing the clutch for manual shifting. The torque converter ATF was circulated by an engine-mounted oil pump, ganged to the engine oil pump. An oil temperature switch would alert the driver to downshift if the torque converter was overheating. There was no oil cooler.
The 1940 Oldsmobiles were optioned with Hydra-Matic. By 1941, Cadillacs could be had with it, too. Post war, Hydra-Matic was actually an option in Nashes, Hudsons, Kaiser, Frazers, Willys and Lincoln automobiles (the last only until Ford developed their own automatic transmission - must've galled Ford to no end to have to buy transmissions from their bitterest rival to match availability with Cadillac
). In 1950, Studebaker introduced their two range fully automatic transmission (with design help from Borg-Warner) with a novel innovation - a direct mechanical engagement in high range after reaching about 45 mph to aid fuel economy. (I wonder why this idea never caught on?...
) Buick continued to demure on parent company GM's pressure to offer Hydra-Matic and went out on a limb to develop its (in)famous "Dynaflow", which was never officially used in other GM lines - at least in the States. Dynaflow was technically a torque converter, two-range transmission, though low range was strictly reserved for quicker acceleration (discouraged in the owner's manuals), ascending and descending steep hills, and rocking out of snow or mud. The 1950-1952 Chevy Powerglides worked in the same manner, but by 1953, Chevy had altered the valve body to automatically modulate a shift between both ranges in normal forward operation (though "low" range could be still be selected manually for special circumstances). Around the same time frame, Buick, however, developed a "Twin-Turbine" variable stator arrangement in the torque converter to achieve higher efficiency and still maintain absolute shift-free smoothness - the division's main selling point to its customer base. (These boxes were still slower-than-molasses-in-January, though.) Chevy's later "Turboglide" in 1960 may have been functionally more along the lines of Buick's then current "Twin-Turbine Dynaflow" transmissions, but I'm not really certain about this. It was a short-lived option in any case, available only through the 1963 model year. Chrysler's first fully automatic transmission was the dual range Powerflyte that appeared in 1953 Imperials. By 1954, Powerflyte was available in Dodge, DeSoto, and Chyrysler lines, and, later in Plymouths by mid-1954. In 1955, Powerflyte was engaged with a lever that stuck out of the dash to the right of the steering wheel - and, like later pushbutton engagement from Chrycorp in 1956 and several other manufacturers, purely a marketing gimmick, but it impressed the easily impressed. In 1957, the first triple range Torqueflyte equipped Chrycorp cars were introduced - again with pushbutton operation. American Motors in the late '60s chose Chrysler to supply fully assembled Torqueflyte trannies in lieu of their previous supplier, Borg-Warner.
[ October 04, 2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
[ October 04, 2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
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