Audi A4 cam wear

[dlundblad]

Since the lifter potentially needs replaced too, I have chickened out of the procedure. I am new to engines and I dont want to potentially mess something up and make repair costs more that what they have to be.

He is planning on taking it to a local independent shop.

 

[GregPR]

I hear you!

I'm very curious to hear what the quote comes back at, and what they recommend including in the work (i.e. it's basically a timing belt job, so why not do that + water pump as well?).

Good luck.

 

[dlundblad]

Apparently Audi recommends the timing belt be done at 120k? That's what the dealer told us at least.. He is a huge Audi fan, but that's all I have to back what he says.

The car has 112k on it now so my dad is just planning to have that fixed and he said we can attempt to fix the timing belt when the time comes. He just wants to get it on the road as cheaply as possible.

We had to expose the timing belt to get the valve cover gaskets off. The darn thing looks nearly new.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Apparently Audi recommends the timing belt be done at 120k? That's what the dealer told us at least.. He is a huge Audi fan, but that's all I have to back what he says.

TB replacement interval is 75K miles according to official Audi literature:
http://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-Maintenance-Schedule-Model-Year-2004.pdf

Quote:

and he said we can attempt to fix the timing belt when the time comes.

You really don't want to wait until you have to "fix" the timing belt. Since this is an interference engine, major damage will occur if the TB breaks.

If you don't have a record of the TB being replaced at 75K miles, you are taking a huge risk by not replacing it ASAP. This is why service history is so important with these cars.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad


The car has 112k on it now so my dad is just planning to have that fixed and he said we can attempt to fix the timing belt when the time comes. He just wants to get it on the road as cheaply as possible.



Then this is not the car to do so. It will bite him big time unless he wants to flip it.

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
VW/Audi makes a lot of major cam eaters. The 1.8T engines were the most notorious. I've never been to the machine shop where they didn't have at least 5 recent arrivals of trashed 1.8t cylinder heads.

Woman I know has had 3 engines in her Passau. Go ahead and fix it. Take good notes, because you'll be doing it again eventually.


Not to say they weren't cam eaters but like any interference engine the 1.8t had a timing belt and we all know how people love doing preventive maintenance of cars.

Reminds me of the PD cams getting chewed up. VW ran with it and just said use this oil & you'll be fine.

Could have easily just been the TB snapping.

Same could be said with the woman & her Passat. Frankly I think certain people should only own Toyota's since they thrive on lack on maintenance.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Apparently Audi recommends the timing belt be done at 120k? That's what the dealer told us at least.. He is a huge Audi fan, but that's all I have to back what he says.

TB replacement interval is 75K miles according to official Audi literature:
http://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-Maintenance-Schedule-Model-Year-2004.pdf

Quote:

and he said we can attempt to fix the timing belt when the time comes.

You really don't want to wait until you have to "fix" the timing belt. Since this is an interference engine, major damage will occur if the TB breaks.

If you don't have a record of the TB being replaced at 75K miles, you are taking a huge risk by not replacing it ASAP. This is why service history is so important with these cars.


Ill mention this to him.

I see where you are getting from, but wouldnt the belt show at least a little sign of wear before it needs replaced? As I mentioned, it looks nearly new. Now that you say the intervals are 75k, it makes me wonder if it was replaced already.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I see where you are getting from, but wouldnt the belt show at least a little sign of wear before it needs replaced?

I suppose. I was thinking of the 1.8T engine where it was the TB tensioner that would fail unexpectedly, giving the owner absolutely no warning signs. Hoping that is not the case with your 3.0.

On a related note, audi issued a Technical Service Bulletin related to camshaft wear, alas, since this was not an actual recall, this would probably not help you outside of warranty, unless maybe if you were the original owner and Audi was willing to extend some goodwill...

Quote:

Vehicle: 2004 Audi A4
Nature of Defect:
ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING:ENGINE
Bulletin Number:
TSB-15-11-18
Bulletin Date:
Jan 2011
Summary:
AUDI: THERE IS A TICKING NOISE FROM THE ENGINE AREA WHICH MAY BE CAUSED BY WEAR IN THE CAMSHAFT. ( NHTSA ITEM NUMBER - 10038249 )

 

[dlundblad]

I still amazes me that it didn't make any noise.

To those of you who know how picky my Jeep is, you can guess how in tune i am with excessive noise, ticking, taps etc. Lol.

 

[GregPR]

I just took the original TB off mine, barely past 75K. The belt itself looked ok, but if you examined it closely you could see very small surface cracks on the back of the belt, opposite the gaps where the gear teeth engaged. Otherwise the belt looked to be in pretty good shape.

I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but there really is very little incremental work involved in replacing the timing belt if your plan is to change this cam. That TB has to come off in order to get the cam out. If you're going to take it off, why put it right back on if you have no idea how old it really is? I invested a lot of time in getting the front carrier into service position and just getting the belt exposed. IMO, installing the new cam & lifters will be less difficult than just getting it all exposed for work.

The TB tensioner on that 3.0 motor is hydraulic. You have to gently compress it and insert a pin to hold it that way so you can remove the belt. You can get the basic TB kit from Blauparts for around $260, which includes the belt, idlers and tensioner. For another 250 you an get a kit that includes water pump, valve cover gaskets, thermostat and some additional seals & hardware.

Sorry to complicate the discussion. I'll shut up now. Don't let a knucklehead like me tell you what to do.

 

[dlundblad]

GregPR, I appreciate the input.

Ill admit, changing the water pump seems a bit goofy to me. Why fix something that isn't broken? I would trust an "old" factory water pump over a new aftermarket one honestly. That's just me though.

Not arguing with anyone.. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Feel free to set me straight guys.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Ill admit, changing the water pump seems a bit goofy to me. Why fix something that isn't broken?

Welcome to German car ownership.

Some of these items, like water pumps, have been known to fail prematurely with dire consequences. That is why many people replace them preemptively. It's just cheaper than having to fix an overheated engine.

On my BMW for example, I had the entire cooling system overhauled at 70K miles. Other than a cracked coolant expansion tank, nothing was yet broken, but I have seen enough horror stories to coax me into doing the whole thing. These engines give you very little warning when something seriously goes wrong.

My best advice is to join a forum specific to this particular audi year and model, and find out what the common problems are. Then act accordingly. Sometimes that means having to be proactive about some things.

 

[crw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Ill admit, changing the water pump seems a bit goofy to me. Why fix something that isn't broken?

Welcome to German car ownership.

Some of these items, like water pumps, have been known to fail prematurely with dire consequences. That is why many people replace them preemptively. It's just cheaper than having to fix an overheated engine.

On my BMW for example, I had the entire cooling system overhauled at 70K miles. Other than a cracked coolant expansion tank, nothing was yet broken, but I have seen enough horror stories to coax me into doing the whole thing. These engines give you very little warning when something seriously goes wrong.

My best advice is to join a forum specific to this particular audi year and model, and find out what the common problems are. Then act accordingly. Sometimes that means having to be proactive about some things.


Could not have said it better myself. My BMW, having overheated 3 times, finally blew it's head gasket and I sold it cheap. Back in the Mazda/Toyota/Nissan/Honda camp now.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Yup. There are days when I wake up and seriously question myself why I put up with this stuff.

 

[dlundblad]

Ill mention the above to him. Thanks guys.

 

[Lapham3]

I've noticed in my area there are 5-6 indy shops catering to VW/Audi and few for other specific marques. I'm not about german derived cars, but for those that are, what's the deal-related to things like this situation? It's not uncommon to have pattern failures with anything but not good when it's excessive.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
GregPR, I appreciate the input.

Ill admit, changing the water pump seems a bit goofy to me. Why fix something that isn't broken? I would trust an "old" factory water pump over a new aftermarket one honestly. That's just me though.

Not arguing with anyone.. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Feel free to set me straight guys.


It is common to have a water pump fail halfway into the life of a replacement timing belt. This happened to both of my parents around the year 1999. One car was a Honda Accord, the other was an Eagle Summit. We also learned that just because the factory coolant was green, it wasn't the same stuff you buy at the big stores.

As for the replacement pump, Blau does source pumps from the same companies that build the OEM pumps. In some cases, they can replace platic impeller pumps with metal impeller ones.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
GregPR, I appreciate the input.

Ill admit, changing the water pump seems a bit goofy to me. Why fix something that isn't broken? I would trust an "old" factory water pump over a new aftermarket one honestly. That's just me though.

Not arguing with anyone.. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Feel free to set me straight guys.



it's a wearable component with a service life. Why keep the meter running when you can start fresh? The alternative is to end up doing all the work of a TB replacement, a second time, because you neglected the pump while it was wide open, staring at you in the face.

 

[Olas]

It's only worth replacing the water pump if it has a plastic impeller prone to breakage. Pumps with metal impellers soldier on for much, much longer

 

[GregPR]

I've owned many makes of car over the years: Dodge Minivans, Jeep Grand Cheokee, Olds Bravada, and a long line of Hondas. I did a number of timing belt replacements on my Hondas, and the consensus recommendation is always to replace the water pump along with the timing belt.

Now, 'consensus' is kind of a squishy term. Many Honda fans on the interwebs will recommend this. Also, if you ask a service consultant at a Honda dealership, I'd wager a dollar they will advise the same. I think you're justified in questioning the call to replace a functional part. But once you bloody your knuckles up real good on that radiator fan shroud, you'll want to swap out out everything that wears down while you're in there!

I don't want to come off as some arbitrary defender of "German Engineering", because I've only recently happened into owning a VW and an Audi. However, I won't say Honda's engineering is significantly more insightful regarding maintenance when the service manual lists step 1 of a timing belt replacement as "support the motor with a jack and block of wood, and remove left motor mount." While I've always loved our Civics our current one is a 2009, and I have to say that I am not really a fan.

My wife is usually dismayed when I announce the need to spend a few or several hundred bucks to do something to one of the cars (tires, timing belts, brakes, there's always something). But that's just the way it is when you own cars. Stuff wears out and it has to be maintained. The only alternative is to buy a brand new car every year.