Assault Weapons - Historical and Now

[scion_xb]

Many historians consider the first modern assault rifle the WW 2 German Sturmgewehr 44 placed in service in late 1943. It used a lighter cartridge that infantry rifles of that time used and used a gas-operated action, with both semi-automatic and fully automatic firing modes. The USSR recognized the need for a similar weapon and produced the AK-47 in 1949 which was developed by Mikhail Kalashnikov. The US M-16 history is very complicated, with many problems on its initial entry in Vietnam. It took till 1968 for the M16 to achieved widespread acceptance by U.S. troops in Vietnam. The various M-16 models have semi-automatic, burst and fully automatic modes. The M16 cartridge is lighter than the previous M-1 & M-14 cartridge, but has a higher muzzle velocity. It fires the 0.223 caliber ( 5.56×45mm) cartridge and can produce massive wounding effects when the bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue leading to fragmentation and rapid transfer of energy.


Except with very restricted ATF conditions, it is not legal to have a automatic version of any of these or similar weapons in the US. It is legal to have a semi-automatic version of these weapons along with many other weapons which have a semi-automatic mode. Semi-automatic weapons require the pull of the trigger each time for the weapon to fire. Semi-automatic weapons run basically from 22 cal (0.22 in diameter) thru 50 cal (0.50 in diameter). How fast the trigger can be pulled and the weapon fires widely varies.

The Bushmaster AR-15, used at Newtown, is similar to the semi-automatic M-16 and is one of the M-16 clones available. The Bushmaster AR-15 has an effective firing rate of 45 shots per minute, according to an online Bushmaster manual. Generally the M-16 clones weapons use a high-capacity 30-round magazine. Larger magazines are easily available, for example the SUREFIRE 60 and 100 round capacity magazines. Let's do a small calculation here using the 100 round magazine and the AR-15 fire time, let's see it takes then 2.2 minutes to fire 100 rounds! As a reminder, these bullets produce massive wounding effects when the bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue leading to fragmentation and rapid transfer of energy. I have yet to hear a good deer hunter or even a varmint hunter reason why they need any more than a 3 round magazine!

 

[spasm3]

Because politicians prefer minimally armed peasants.

 

[whip]

Excellent job with the copy and paste.

 

[Big_Kat]

Because I am a tax paying citizen of the free world! A lot of blood has been spilled to keep it that way. It is my choosing to purchase these standard capacity magazines. It saves range time using 20 rounds in an AR when you get charged by the hour. Why does the US government think they need them and all LE organizations? Remember when you call 911 there is a thing called response time.

Why does a person need a 400hp 4 door truck that doesn't tow or use it for work purposes and it's just a commuter vehicle? It's because we have to choice. Would you like to be limited to three gallons of gas in your gas tank when you need it???

 

[ECUpirate]

Originally Posted By: scion_xb
Many historians consider the first modern assault rifle the WW 2 German Sturmgewehr 44 placed in service in late 1943. It used a lighter cartridge that infantry rifles of that time used and used a gas-operated action, with both semi-automatic and fully automatic firing modes. The USSR recognized the need for a similar weapon and produced the AK-47 in 1949 which was developed by Mikhail Kalashnikov. The US M-16 history is very complicated, with many problems on its initial entry in Vietnam. It took till 1968 for the M16 to achieved widespread acceptance by U.S. troops in Vietnam. The various M-16 models have semi-automatic, burst and fully automatic modes. The M16 cartridge is lighter than the previous M-1 & M-14 cartridge, but has a higher muzzle velocity. It fires the 0.223 caliber ( 5.56×45mm) cartridge and can produce massive wounding effects when the bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue leading to fragmentation and rapid transfer of energy.


Except with very restricted ATF conditions, it is not legal to have a automatic version of any of these or similar weapons in the US. It is legal to have a semi-automatic version of these weapons along with many other weapons which have a semi-automatic mode. Semi-automatic weapons require the pull of the trigger each time for the weapon to fire. Semi-automatic weapons run basically from 22 cal (0.22 in diameter) thru 50 cal (0.50 in diameter). How fast the trigger can be pulled and the weapon fires widely varies.

The Bushmaster AR-15, used at Newtown, is similar to the semi-automatic M-16 and is one of the M-16 clones available. The Bushmaster AR-15 has an effective firing rate of 45 shots per minute, according to an online Bushmaster manual. Generally the M-16 clones weapons use a high-capacity 30-round magazine. Larger magazines are easily available, for example the SUREFIRE 60 and 100 round capacity magazines. Let's do a small calculation here using the 100 round magazine and the AR-15 fire time, let's see it takes then 2.2 minutes to fire 100 rounds! As a reminder, these bullets produce massive wounding effects when the bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue leading to fragmentation and rapid transfer of energy. I have yet to hear a good deer hunter or even a varmint hunter reason why they need any more than a 3 round magazine!



Did you have nothing to add or do you accept the opinion the Daily Kos has given you to regurgitate? This is obviously an attempt at trolling and, therefore, there's no use in debating with someone that blatantly posts that garbage without even the slightest personal thought added to the plagiarized snip. To try to explain to you why that copy and paste is ridiculous would be futile.

 

[Trajan]

When I buy one of those semi auto centerfire rifles, I want 30rd mags.

I don't *need* either one of those. I don't *need* the guns I do have.

I *want* them. That is *all* the reason I need.

 

[Zaedock]

Why don't you focus on the root cause of gun violence.

3 round magazine? I'm not even going to respond. This thread is political doo dee and should be locked.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: scion_xb
The Bushmaster AR-15 has an effective firing rate of 45 shots per minute, according to an online Bushmaster manual. Generally the M-16 clones weapons use a high-capacity 30-round magazine. Larger magazines are easily available, for example the SUREFIRE 60 and 100 round capacity magazines. Let's do a small calculation here using the 100 round magazine and the AR-15 fire time, let's see it takes then 2.2 minutes to fire 100 rounds!


British .303 (an ex military rifle, whose nose light FMJ rounds were also prone to yawing) is a 10 shot bolt action.

People familiar with this rifle can fire 30 rounds in 60 seconds, INCLUSIVE of reloading the magazine twice.

Discussions like this are meaningless, as how many times you pull the trigger in a minute doesn't correlate directly into casualties, any more than one of them being black, or the the other having a nice oiled wood finish.

As an aside, most of the .303 Ammunition available is still corrosively primed to boot, and would release mercury vapours into the room...

 

[getnpsi]

Up into the early 1900's the best shots were our farmers and hunters. Every bullet has a price no matter how small and that is what put money on the table. Recruited from revolution times up to now, the "corn fed guys" get things done out of the box, and only more so with military service. So IMO the earliest assault weapon is/was a properly trained human being. Still is. Spray and pray weapons have their place in responsible private hands because it's fun, and if i buy my items legally, ive also paid sales tax to my local and state governments, just like the guy in a 3/4T truck who never hauls more than two kids to little league.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: getnpsi
Up into the early 1900's the best shots were our farmers and hunters. Every bullet has a price no matter how small and that is what put money on the table. Recruited from revolution times up to now, the "corn fed guys" get things done out of the box, and only more so with military service.


Why were 900 Texians able to overrun 1,400 professional Mexican soldiers at San Jacinto?
How does Alvin York take on 6 German soldiers with an empty Enfield rifle and a .45? Or Audie Murphy holding off a German attack?
Why were the Canadian troops regarded as better marksmen than their British counterparts in WWII?

Farmers, hunters, frontiersmen.....

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: scion_xb
... I have yet to hear a good deer hunter or even a varmint hunter reason why they need any more than a 3 round magazine!



OK, so then don't buy one. But don't attempt to prevent other law abiding citizens who might WANT these sorts of weapons from purchasing them.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Because politicians prefer minimally armed peasants.
Sounds like the mindset at the time the amendment was adopted. With no way to defend ourselves if the Brits or French came back, made sense. With todays firepower, minimally armed is the logical perception looking backwards. What about today? With the best military in the world and well armed police what do we need to be armed from/against today? Ahh..so now the interpretation is self defense against each other. Ok..fine..

I grew up during a time we settled things with fists. Like men. Today I'm wondering if the skinny tiny dude acting tough is packing. Thats a coward. Gotta spray me with bullets? A coward that can't shoot straight.

No, I'm not for removing the second amendment. but I also think pulling a gun instead of putting up your dukes is a coward and those people should be stripped of that right. Defense in the home is a different issue. With a bazooka? ICBM? I think there needs to be limits. Because if these weapons get into the wrong hands, a lot of damage can be done. I have to be sold why assault weapons have a place in the home. If its defensive, why is it called assault?

This latest mass murder of children has me on the fence now. Its not clear these weapons can be properly secured in civilian hands. Something has to be done. I don't know what that is other than infringe on some other right like privacy.

No, no a gunowner. But I can vote. And depending on how you guys reply is how I'm going to vote. You explain to me why you need assault rifles for defense nicely, maybe I vote your way. You tell me go f' myself or chastise me, I justify that people with that attitude (gun owners acting tough cause they have guns) should not be armed..at all.. and vote accordingly.

 

[MuzzleFlash40]

The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting or anything of the like! It has to do with us as a people being able as a last resort to take up arms agianst the government. To do so our founding fathers wanted us on equal footing with the government weapon wise.

 

[MuzzleFlash40]

LeakySeals, i agree with you. Everyone is afraid to take a butt-whupin, lol. As far as needing an assult type weapon for selfe defense? Well the bad guys will always have them, no "ban" can stop that. So if law & order broke down and bad guys were running the streets with those type of weapons how would us a good guys defend ourselves? I would not want to get into a gun fight agianst an AK47 with only a pistol, lol

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
You explain to me why you need assault rifles for defense nicely, maybe I vote your way.


LeakySeals, I don't have a dog in this race due to where I live, but the OP pointed out that the original definition of Assault Weapons included the ability to be fired fully auto.

Your laws generally preclude anyone from owning same unless they are checked, balanced, and registered, and therefore a tiny percentage of firearm owners in your country.

They are a tiny percentage of guns, and don't exhibit in the statistics of crime.

The debate is being broadened, as it was in Oz to weapons that display characteristics like assault weapons (except of course, being full auto, which was totally illegal in my country, and already highly regulated in yours).

A semi auto AR type rifle, and a Ruger Mini 14 have a lot in common...calibre, semi-auto, portability...one has a "traditional" wooden stock, the other a black plastic with a pistol grip...and looks pretty "military". Bear in mid, that as per my previous post in this thread, "military" was all wood, and fairly rapid fire not so long ago.

To take the (restricted) capability of full auto assault rifles (traditional definition, as per OP),
then extend it to those that "look" like those, in spite of the functionality that a semi-auto is not full auto, and requires a separate discrete trigger pull per firing does not make the latter an "assault rifle".

At that point, Mini 14 resembles in function the newly declared assault rifle, then a 10-22 (.22 rimfire plinker in most of the U.S.), and to quote the quote "slippery slope",everything that's declared undesirable then becomes illegal.

In Oz' case, a crime was perpetrated with a weapon that was illegal in all but two territories (and had been handed in in an amnesty in one state), and every single semi auto rifle, shotgun, and pump action shotgun were determined to be "assault weapons", and made illegal at the stroke of a pen.

However, this rifle

is fully legitimate and legal, in spite of its looks.

And the people fueling the debate in your country, (and due to the recent events in your country, ours have started up again), are using the "looks like", "just like", sounds like" arguments to make every firearm an "Assault Weapon", and argue hat all previous laws were not "Strong Enough".

 

[63Marauder]

He didn't use the Bushmaster.It was left in the car!!! Pay attention.

 

[Fleetmon]

Don't waste your time folks.....scion_xb and the sheeple like him can only spout off what has been told to them. People like him/her don't have a clue other than posting dribble such as this.

He/she is, in my opinion, not worthy of any responses but you can bet he/she will be screaming at the top of their lungs when they feel the police didn't respond quick enough as he was forced to watch his/her family be raped, murdered, etc.

What will scion_xb and the rest of their like do next? Who cares!

 

[bullwinkle]

Not sure what part of Dayton the OP lives in-but some of the parts I've been in-it would have been comforting to have a "friend" along with me, preferably one that didn't need reloaded until any trouble was over!

 

[Reg# 43897]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: scion_xb
The Bushmaster AR-15 has an effective firing rate of 45 shots per minute, according to an online Bushmaster manual. Generally the M-16 clones weapons use a high-capacity 30-round magazine. Larger magazines are easily available, for example the SUREFIRE 60 and 100 round capacity magazines. Let's do a small calculation here using the 100 round magazine and the AR-15 fire time, let's see it takes then 2.2 minutes to fire 100 rounds!


British .303 (an ex military rifle, whose nose light FMJ rounds were also prone to yawing) is a 10 shot bolt action.

People familiar with this rifle can fire 30 rounds in 60 seconds, INCLUSIVE of reloading the magazine twice.

Discussions like this are meaningless, as how many times you pull the trigger in a minute doesn't correlate directly into casualties, any more than one of them being black, or the the other having a nice oiled wood finish.

As an aside, most of the .303 Ammunition available is still corrosively primed to boot, and would release mercury vapours into the room...


The fantastic "Mad Minute." I have an unaltered, never-issued, Fazerkerly No. 4 rifle and, try as I might, cannot reproduce that feat. I love that rifle. Anyway, you make a valid point: the twisted soul intent upon taking lives or wrecking some variety of mayhem is the concern. Society needs to be addressing the reasons why these people are doing this sh-- in the 1st instance. Everything else is loaded w/ red herrings & agendas. Every 'solution' being proffered that does not address cause is NOT a solution, in my estimation.

I abhor violence, yet am sworn to deliver it "swift & sure" in the interest of keeping the peace as the result of certain oaths made twenty-one years ago to Her Majesty. Been there & done that, sadly enough on one occasion in particular, & have learned a few things along the way. I can leave my right of self defense to the State or keep it to myself. I was raised to protect myself & others. There are people who's protection is better served by the State that themselves - simple & self-evident fact. There are people like myself who have undertaken all kinds of self defense training inclusive of empty-hand, edged weaponry, chemical agents, impact weapons & various firearms & stand ready to use those skills in my own interest or on behalf of the Crown. With that use comes the acceptance of full & frank accountability for whatever I do. I don't like conflict & usually am successful at flapping my gums such that confrontation is avoided. But God help the individual that makes the mistake of bringing violence to my home. I stand ready to do what I have to do & accept whatever FAIR judgment is delivered after-the-fact. I have no use for idiots promulgating their own wishful thinking that get in the way.

Think very critically about everything that you hear. I'm open to suggestions & do not believe that there are not other valid viewpoints on this essential topic.

John.

 

[Darren270]

Quote:
No, no a gunowner. But I can vote. And depending on how you guys reply is how I'm going to vote. You explain to me why you need assault rifles for defense nicely, maybe I vote your way. You tell me go f' myself or chastise me, I justify that people with that attitude (gun owners acting tough cause they have guns) should not be armed..at all.. and vote accordingly.


Vote however you want. I don't give [censored]. I don't have to justify or explain my "need" to you anymore than I "need" to explain to you why I ate a ham sandwich for dinner. What you should be doing, rather telling everyone they need to appease you with their reasons or a justification, is to do the research yourself and let logic and reason guide your vote.

Oh and btw, what's an assault rifle?