Appropriate oil for gasoline engine

[Proxyon]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Proxyon
In Greece.

It becomes really hot in the summer here with ambient temperatures exceeding 38C (100 F). I still do not know if 5w30 or 5w40 would be better.

It was here on this forum time ago when I was advised that the ESP was probably not the best option for my gasoline engine. People were like: "Why would you put recommended oil for DPF diesel engines with C2/C3 specs on a gas engine when you have plenty of other options."
I ignored it, so far no issues with the ESP, however, after this advice has always sounded in the back of my mind. And probably there is a good point on it.

I am originally from Bosnia and I know Greece climate very well.
DO not worry. Greece climate is not as hot as in southeast US or deserts here.
5W30 will perform in your Accord perfectly fine in Greece. Take into consideration that M1 5W30 ESP HTHS is 3.58 and HTHS of Motul 5W40 X-Clean is 3.64cp! That is negligible difference.
I was running Castrol 0W30 in Alabama where temperatures reach in summer 115f, and humidity spikes to 98% with no problems. I was running M1 5W30 ESP oil in Tiguan in Colorado and visiting Moab, UT in July where temperatures go well above 100f.
If your Accord is Direct injection engine, ESP might be much better solution due to lower-SAPS content. If your engine is NOT DI, then you could go to ACEA A3/B B4. There is pretty good evidence that Low-SAPS oil such as ESP will leave less deposits on valves then High-SAPS oil.


My Accord is INdirect Injection, NOT a Direct Injection. It is a traditional injection (where the nozzles are in the collector (don't know if I know the correct English vocabulary and technical competence to explain it).

Since it is not DI does it mean that in my case I should probably go with A3/B4 or just ignore it is not DI and continue with ESP?

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: harrydog
Originally Posted By: edyvw

There is pretty good evidence that Low-SAPS oil such as ESP will leave less deposits on valves then High-SAPS oil.

I have never seen any proof of that, only heard people say it. Do you have any sources for this good evidence? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, I'm just truly interested.

There is Lubrizol study that you can find on like 100 places here on BITOG. I put once same study here. No intentions to go through my files every time when someones says: I heard but I want evidence.


Here's a link to the study:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3362040/Re:_Audi_FSi_and_TFSi_owners_c

 

[yvon_la]

go get Honda oil!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Proxyon
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Proxyon
In Greece.

It becomes really hot in the summer here with ambient temperatures exceeding 38C (100 F). I still do not know if 5w30 or 5w40 would be better.

It was here on this forum time ago when I was advised that the ESP was probably not the best option for my gasoline engine. People were like: "Why would you put recommended oil for DPF diesel engines with C2/C3 specs on a gas engine when you have plenty of other options."
I ignored it, so far no issues with the ESP, however, after this advice has always sounded in the back of my mind. And probably there is a good point on it.

I am originally from Bosnia and I know Greece climate very well.
DO not worry. Greece climate is not as hot as in southeast US or deserts here.
5W30 will perform in your Accord perfectly fine in Greece. Take into consideration that M1 5W30 ESP HTHS is 3.58 and HTHS of Motul 5W40 X-Clean is 3.64cp! That is negligible difference.
I was running Castrol 0W30 in Alabama where temperatures reach in summer 115f, and humidity spikes to 98% with no problems. I was running M1 5W30 ESP oil in Tiguan in Colorado and visiting Moab, UT in July where temperatures go well above 100f.
If your Accord is Direct injection engine, ESP might be much better solution due to lower-SAPS content. If your engine is NOT DI, then you could go to ACEA A3/B B4. There is pretty good evidence that Low-SAPS oil such as ESP will leave less deposits on valves then High-SAPS oil.


My Accord is INdirect Injection, NOT a Direct Injection. It is a traditional injection (where the nozzles are in the collector (don't know if I know the correct English vocabulary and technical competence to explain it).

Since it is not DI does it mean that in my case I should probably go with A3/B4 or just ignore it is not DI and continue with ESP?

You can use ACEA A3.B3 B4 or C3. In that case I would go get Castrol 0W30 ACEA A3/B3 B4, API SL.
ESP should be also beneficial for CAT, but honestly I do not think it will make any difference.
Personally, considering it is Honda I would stay away from W40 oils.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Edyvw (Last post):
You can use ACEA A3.B3 B4 or C3. In that case I would go get Castrol 0W30 ACEA A3/B3 B4, API SL.
ESP should be also beneficial for CAT, but honestly I do not think it will make any difference.
Personally, considering it is Honda I would stay away from W40 oils.

If you have a petrol engine that might be true, BUT C3 is not the same as B4. I tested a C3 (Edge 5w40) in a 1.9 TDI which had very reliable consistent UOA results from both LM 5w40 and Ultra 5w40 (Both A3/B4) and it doubled the top end wear metals (Iron, Aluminium and chrome), but made no difference to the bottom end figures (Lead).

I wrote to Castrol R&D before the test and they were silly enough to say that C3 was backwards compatible to both A3 and B4. Which was proven to be total rubbish by the test results.
Some diesels that are subject to a lot of stop-start abuse just love their Zinc based anti wear additives and you only have to make a small decrease to get increased wear.
So if the engine manufacturer says use a B4, don't use anything else unless you are doing a regular UOA program.

I agree with the fact that most petrol engines in good condition are still OK on their design spec oil, which is often a w30, BUT some do prefer other grades, like w20 for modern petrol engines or w40 for engines like the 16v 1.2 petrol job in my Renault Twingo town car.
The Shell oil finder recommends Ultra 0w40 (A3/B4), although I tend to use 5w40 as it's cheaper in the EU.

Most CAT's fail from corrosion rather than ash deposits. They are very different from the dreaded old style DPF systems that really do not like Zinc add's. If you suffer from one of those it helps to add Ceratec to the oil (I just use half a can every OCI) to beef up the add pack to resist the thinning effect of the Bio diesel content. That should help reduce the oil consumption which is critical to ash production.

 

[chrisri]

Phosphorus poison catalyst, not ash levels. In C group of oils phosphorus is reduced.

 

[bobbydavro]

A 1.9PD engine needs a VW 505 01 oil which has to be C3.

There are no current A3/B4 oils with VW505 01. A3/B4 requires a TBN of 10 and 505 01 has a max ash level of 0.8%. The amount of zinc is not important. They type of zinc is and there is fair few types of ZDDP available.

Kind of strange you think your testing is more accurate than an oil companies.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: Proxyon
Hi, folks.

Have been using Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 for years in my gasoline Honda Accord and have no issues so far.
However, since it is C2/C3 ACEA and I see it is mostly recommended for diesel engines is it a better idea to switch to A3, A4 ACEA oil which is recommended for gasoline engines?

And regarding the viscosity isn't it better to drive with 5w40? Here ambient temperatures are in the -5C (20F) in the winter to +38C (100F). I've always had concern with 5w30 oil being used in the very hot summers.


OK, to further clarify this confusion. In Greece you can use C3 (like your ESP) or A3/B4 , possible even A5/B5. Honda isn't picky in terms of oil requirements.
With full -SAPS your catalyst will (theoretically) last shorter.
0w30 is not too thin for your engine, but 5w40 oil, like SHU, is most cost effective.
As Eddy mentioned earlier if your Honda is direct injected stick with C3 lube.


It would be good if the OP could post the actual car engine number, model and year. Then we can look up what the manufacturer recommends or what the major engine oil companies list as options.

A5/B5 is bad news in some engines and Acea say that on their web site:

https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/2012_ACEA_Oil_Sequences.pdf

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
A 1.9PD engine needs a VW 505 01 oil which has to be C3.

There are no current A3/B4 oils with VW505 01. A3/B4 requires a TBN of 10 and 505 01 has a max ash level of 0.8%. The amount of zinc is not important. They type of zinc is and there is fair few types of ZDDP available.

Kind of strange you think your testing is more accurate than an oil companies.


As I said before, my results are for a turbo diesel only. I suspect there won't be much difference between a C3 and an A3 oil for a petrol engine. Also we still don't know the exact details of the OP engine. It might well list quite a range as OK.

 

[bobbydavro]

I'm talking about a turbo diesel in relation to your post.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Edyvw (Last post):
You can use ACEA A3.B3 B4 or C3. In that case I would go get Castrol 0W30 ACEA A3/B3 B4, API SL.
ESP should be also beneficial for CAT, but honestly I do not think it will make any difference.
Personally, considering it is Honda I would stay away from W40 oils.

If you have a petrol engine that might be true, BUT C3 is not the same as B4. I tested a C3 (Edge 5w40) in a 1.9 TDI which had very reliable consistent UOA results from both LM 5w40 and Ultra 5w40 (Both A3/B4) and it doubled the top end wear metals (Iron, Aluminium and chrome), but made no difference to the bottom end figures (Lead).

I wrote to Castrol R&D before the test and they were silly enough to say that C3 was backwards compatible to both A3 and B4. Which was proven to be total rubbish by the test results.
Some diesels that are subject to a lot of stop-start abuse just love their Zinc based anti wear additives and you only have to make a small decrease to get increased wear.
So if the engine manufacturer says use a B4, don't use anything else unless you are doing a regular UOA program.

I agree with the fact that most petrol engines in good condition are still OK on their design spec oil, which is often a w30, BUT some do prefer other grades, like w20 for modern petrol engines or w40 for engines like the 16v 1.2 petrol job in my Renault Twingo town car.
The Shell oil finder recommends Ultra 0w40 (A3/B4), although I tend to use 5w40 as it's cheaper in the EU.

Most CAT's fail from corrosion rather than ash deposits. They are very different from the dreaded old style DPF systems that really do not like Zinc add's. If you suffer from one of those it helps to add Ceratec to the oil (I just use half a can every OCI) to beef up the add pack to resist the thinning effect of the Bio diesel content. That should help reduce the oil consumption which is critical to ash production.

You completely misread my post.
Castrol 0W30 comes with ACEA A3/B3 B4 specifications. I am not implying that he should use only B4 oil.
He was using C3 M1 ESP for some time. I would stay with that oil, but if he really wants to change it, he can go to A3/B3 B4.
You overthought my post.

 

[harrydog]

Originally Posted By: finmile
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: harrydog
Originally Posted By: edyvw

There is pretty good evidence that Low-SAPS oil such as ESP will leave less deposits on valves then High-SAPS oil.

I have never seen any proof of that, only heard people say it. Do you have any sources for this good evidence? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, I'm just truly interested.

There is Lubrizol study that you can find on like 100 places here on BITOG. I put once same study here. No intentions to go through my files every time when someones says: I heard but I want evidence.


Here's a link to the study:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3362040/Re:_Audi_FSi_and_TFSi_owners_c

Are there any other studies on this subject besides this one? I don't doubt that low SAPS oil may help slightly but I'm skeptical that it makes that much of difference in deposits. For one thing it looks like this is from 2006. Technology and oil formulations have evolved since then. What oils did they use for the study?
I think reducing piston blow-by will help reduce intake valve deposits as much or more than anything else. Some oils hold up better and have better ring seal than others, particularly when subjected to fuel dilution. I'd like to see more recent studies that support using low SAPS to reduce intake valve deposits to be convinced that it makes that much of a difference..

 

[edyvw]

I am not so sure that high-SAPS oils changed that much except base oils, NOACK etc. yes, low NOACK, especially new GTL base will help, but sulfated ash is still sulfated ash as well as phosphorus.
I am not aware of another study, but Lubrizol is very respected company.

 

[UltrafanUK]

What does Mobil say in terms of which oil this car should use ??

Also I can't find an Edge that says A3/B3,B4. B4 is better than B3, so why would they list both ?

 

[Proxyon]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
What does Mobil say in terms of which oil this car should use ??

Also I can't find an Edge that says A3/B3,B4. B4 is better than B3, so why would they list both ?


Mobil 1 UK recommends that one:

http://www.mobil.co.uk/UK-English-LCW/carengineoils_products_mobil-1-fuel-economy-0w30.aspx#

Mobil 1™ Fuel Economy 0W-30

Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0W-30 meets or exceeds the requirements of:

ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5
API SL, SJ
According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0W-30 is of the following quality:
Ford WSS-M2C913-A
Ford WSS-M2C913-B
Ford WSS-M2C920-A
API CF

Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0W-30 Value
Viscosity, cSt (ASTM D445)
@ 100º C 10.0
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 1.4
Phosphorous, wt% (ASTM D4951) 0.1
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) 228
Density @15.6 ºC g/ml (ASTM D4052) 0.849
Total Base Number (ASTM D2896) 11
MRV at -30 ºC, cP (ASTM D4684) 19000
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150 ºC (ASTM D4683) 3.0


"Mine" ESP 5w30 has the following specs:

http://www.mobil.co.uk/UK-English-LCW/carengineoils_products_mobil-1-esp-formula-5w30.aspx


Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:
BMW Longlife 04
MB-Approval 229.31
MB-Approval 229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline / Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00
Porsche C30
Chrysler MS-11106
Peugeot/Citroën Automobiles B71 2290/ B71 2297

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 meets or exceeds the requirements of:
ACEA C2, C3
API (Meets Engine Test Requirements) SM / SN
JASO DL-1



Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
SAE Grade 5W-30
Viscosity, cSt (ASTM D445)
@ 40ºC 72.8
@ 100ºC 12.1
Viscosity Index 164
Sulphated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 0.6
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150 ºC (ASTM D4683) 3.58
Pour Point, ºC (ASTM D97) -45
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) 254
Density @ 15.6 ºC, g/ml (ASTM D4052) 0.850


Since it DOES not go so cold in winter here in Greece what is the point to switch from 5w to 0w?

Does 0w30 Fuel Economy have better specs than ESP 5w30?!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
What does Mobil say in terms of which oil this car should use ??

Also I can't find an Edge that says A3/B3,B4. B4 is better than B3, so why would they list both ?

My mistake, I thought bottle on 0W30 said B3/B4.
I know it is better spec. but it is not uncommon that manufacturers put current and outdated spec.

 

[bobbydavro]

A3/B3 is still current.

The problem is people with a handbook asking for A3/B3 look for that spec and don't understand A3/B4 is a better version of A3/B3.

Easiest way to not confuse customers is to claim both

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Proxyon
In Greece.

It becomes really hot in the summer here with ambient temperatures exceeding 38C (100 F). I still do not know if 5w30 or 5w40 would be better.

It was here on this forum time ago when I was advised that the ESP was probably not the best option for my gasoline engine. People were like: "Why would you put recommended oil for DPF diesel engines with C2/C3 specs on a gas engine when you have plenty of other options."
I ignored it, so far no issues with the ESP, however, after this advice has always sounded in the back of my mind. And probably there is a good point on it.


Just because ESP is dual rated for petrol and diesels vehicles is not reason to not use it

It's an excellent oil.

It also meets or exceeds A3 and A5. Which means it is fine for petrol engines.

My BiL had a 2.2 petrol Vectra with the Direct Injected petrol engine, and that specced a low saps oil, I used ESP on the oil changes that I did. (0w40 if I remember correctly)