Any Snow tire performance updates?
- Thread starter oily boyd
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I've been driving since 1960 and have lived in Minn., Vt., and Mont. all my life. I've almost always run snow tires on all four wheels, whether I had a FWD, RWD, AWD, or 4WD vehicle, and the snow tires have always been studded. Sure, you can get by with all-season or AT tires on snow and ice, but believe me, snow tires, especially if they're studded and have a lot of sipes, will do better. I've tried to get by a year here and a year there with AT's or all-seasons, but they're just not the same, and I've always gone back to studded snows.
WRX with Nokian WR tires (the only all-season tires with a Snowflake meaning tire suitable for severe Snow Conditions link )
Our last storm dumped 15" of drier snow. My WRX although AWD had no issues except occasionally chatter of ABS when stopping. My nuts crazy wife was doing 45MPH+ occasionally on 4" of unplowed snow on main roads when no cars around. Her rational was the fluffy snow bank were there to stop quickly.
Our last storm dumped 15" of drier snow. My WRX although AWD had no issues except occasionally chatter of ABS when stopping. My nuts crazy wife was doing 45MPH+ occasionally on 4" of unplowed snow on main roads when no cars around. Her rational was the fluffy snow bank were there to stop quickly.
Why Run snow tires with AWD? Try stopping going down the hill when there is a nice brand new BWM 700 series in front of you.....
Its all about stopping distance.
One idiot in front of you panicks and slams the brakes, sometimes its impssible to change lanes or stop from rear ending that person without loosing control of your car.
Its all about stopping distance.
One idiot in front of you panicks and slams the brakes, sometimes its impssible to change lanes or stop from rear ending that person without loosing control of your car.
Also Id like to add snow tires are a very GOOD and cheap insurance policy. I know alot of us dont see eye to eye because some of us call 3 inches of snow a "severe winter conditon" while for others a complete white out is just part of daily routine.
I too was disappointed with Tire Rack's limited selection of snows. For my Civic, they had 4 models, 3 of them Bridgestone / Firestone. They used to have the Kumho snows and Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice that I really liked.
I ended up going with the Mastercraft (Cooper)tires that Consumer Reports liked pretty well. These are decidely low-tech, relying on a soft aggressive tread with deap grooves and siping. Not a lot of experience with them yet in the snow, but what I have had has been pretty positive. Its coming down hard right now, so I should know soon.
In non-winter conditions, I've been pleasantly surprised with them. They aren't very noisy or squirmy. They also stop very quickly on dry pavemenet, unlike some snows, as I learned right after I put them on and a person sitting at a stop sign looked directly at me and then pulled immediately into my path.
I ended up going with the Mastercraft (Cooper)tires that Consumer Reports liked pretty well. These are decidely low-tech, relying on a soft aggressive tread with deap grooves and siping. Not a lot of experience with them yet in the snow, but what I have had has been pretty positive. Its coming down hard right now, so I should know soon.
In non-winter conditions, I've been pleasantly surprised with them. They aren't very noisy or squirmy. They also stop very quickly on dry pavemenet, unlike some snows, as I learned right after I put them on and a person sitting at a stop sign looked directly at me and then pulled immediately into my path.
I use Bizzak's on both my vehicles. A Sable and a Tahoe. Yes, the Tahoe is a 4x4; yes, it weighs close to 6000 lbs so I don't want to loose control of that in a snowstorm.
My Summer tires are BFG All Terrain (LT265/75-16)tires and there is a difference between the handling in snow and ice between Blizzaks and BFG AT's. I don't care what anyone tells me, I have them both and I have driven the Tahoe with the two tires and felt the difference myself.
As one poster said, it is cheap insurance to keep you from ending up in a ditch or upside down because you lost control on a slick road.
Cheers,
My Summer tires are BFG All Terrain (LT265/75-16)tires and there is a difference between the handling in snow and ice between Blizzaks and BFG AT's. I don't care what anyone tells me, I have them both and I have driven the Tahoe with the two tires and felt the difference myself.
As one poster said, it is cheap insurance to keep you from ending up in a ditch or upside down because you lost control on a slick road.
Cheers,
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so one can imagine how often snow tires are really needed.
I do have Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S tire which are allegedly "all season".
I've taken my 2004 WRX to Reno/Tahoe a couple of times when there were chain controls. The first time was last March with an 18" overnight snowfall. I was anticipating it, and called about a dozen dealers before I found one place that had chains in my size in stock. I later noticed that chains were easily available at drug stores and gas stations on the way to Reno. On the way back, one big 'ol SUV had plowed into an embankment during the snow drift. I can't say I felt totally confident with the P Zero Nero M+S. I'd probably want a real snow tire if I lived up there. The basic tread design is the same as the summer P Zero Nero. It's not siped at all, and there are three long continuous bands with several biting edges.
I went up last weekend when there were chain controls. Like before, at the chain control checkpoint, a CalTrans worker at US-50 took one look at my car and shined a light on the left-front tire to check for tread depth. I just said, "chains in the trunk" and he waved me off with a "take it easy". Eventually I got to the point where the line of cars was going under 10 MPH. I saw some chains on the roadway that had run away from their owners.
They even had chain controls on CA-89 from South Lake Tahoe all the way up to Truckee. Frankly, there was a tiny bit of slush. The only checkpoints were between North LT and Truckee. I was also waved through. I still couldn't figure out what the chain controls were for, since it was rainy and all, but virtually zero snow on the road.
I do have Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S tire which are allegedly "all season".
I've taken my 2004 WRX to Reno/Tahoe a couple of times when there were chain controls. The first time was last March with an 18" overnight snowfall. I was anticipating it, and called about a dozen dealers before I found one place that had chains in my size in stock. I later noticed that chains were easily available at drug stores and gas stations on the way to Reno. On the way back, one big 'ol SUV had plowed into an embankment during the snow drift. I can't say I felt totally confident with the P Zero Nero M+S. I'd probably want a real snow tire if I lived up there. The basic tread design is the same as the summer P Zero Nero. It's not siped at all, and there are three long continuous bands with several biting edges.
I went up last weekend when there were chain controls. Like before, at the chain control checkpoint, a CalTrans worker at US-50 took one look at my car and shined a light on the left-front tire to check for tread depth. I just said, "chains in the trunk" and he waved me off with a "take it easy". Eventually I got to the point where the line of cars was going under 10 MPH. I saw some chains on the roadway that had run away from their owners.
They even had chain controls on CA-89 from South Lake Tahoe all the way up to Truckee. Frankly, there was a tiny bit of slush. The only checkpoints were between North LT and Truckee. I was also waved through. I still couldn't figure out what the chain controls were for, since it was rainy and all, but virtually zero snow on the road.
http://www.pfmmag.com/JulyAugust2004/Julyauguststuddedtires.htm
The Role of Studs
So where does that leave tire studs? The answer is simple: studs are there to provide additional grip on ice and hard packed snow that becomes like ice. If you rarely if ever drive on ice, then you do not need studs. However, because studs provide extra friction by biting into icy surfaces, the tread design can be slanted more toward optimizing performance in deep slush and snow.
Similarly, because some of the grip on icy conditions is taken care of by the studs, the rubber compound can be made harder to provide significantly longer tread life. In other words, by using studs, the designer can produce a tire that can cope with a wider range of driving conditions, such as ice, slush, and deep or hard packed snow, and still provide longer tread life as an added bonus.
http://www.pfmmag.com/Sept Oct 04/septoct2004studdedtires.htm
A complete test series was performed in 2003 by the Finnish magazine Tekniikan Maailma comparing ten studded tires and seven studless winter tires from manufactures such as Goodyear, Uniroyal, Michelin, Nokian, Bridgestone, Continental, and Gislaved. Tests were conducted on smooth and rough ice, hard packed snow, slush, and wet pavement, and the results demonstrated the overwhelming performance supremacy of the studded tires, on ice and slush, while the results were more evenly matched on hard packed snow.
The only test where studless tires were consistently superior was 'noise on dry pavement'. These tests also illustrated the great strides made in winter tire design. The best tires were made in 2002, while the two tires rated lowest overall were one studded and one studless tire that were first introduced in 1996. The average values of the friction values on smooth ice of the 2002 studded and studless tires were 0.23 and 0.17 respectively, and a comparable value for an 'All Season' tire would be about 0.13.
The Role of Studs
So where does that leave tire studs? The answer is simple: studs are there to provide additional grip on ice and hard packed snow that becomes like ice. If you rarely if ever drive on ice, then you do not need studs. However, because studs provide extra friction by biting into icy surfaces, the tread design can be slanted more toward optimizing performance in deep slush and snow.
Similarly, because some of the grip on icy conditions is taken care of by the studs, the rubber compound can be made harder to provide significantly longer tread life. In other words, by using studs, the designer can produce a tire that can cope with a wider range of driving conditions, such as ice, slush, and deep or hard packed snow, and still provide longer tread life as an added bonus.
http://www.pfmmag.com/Sept Oct 04/septoct2004studdedtires.htm
A complete test series was performed in 2003 by the Finnish magazine Tekniikan Maailma comparing ten studded tires and seven studless winter tires from manufactures such as Goodyear, Uniroyal, Michelin, Nokian, Bridgestone, Continental, and Gislaved. Tests were conducted on smooth and rough ice, hard packed snow, slush, and wet pavement, and the results demonstrated the overwhelming performance supremacy of the studded tires, on ice and slush, while the results were more evenly matched on hard packed snow.
The only test where studless tires were consistently superior was 'noise on dry pavement'. These tests also illustrated the great strides made in winter tire design. The best tires were made in 2002, while the two tires rated lowest overall were one studded and one studless tire that were first introduced in 1996. The average values of the friction values on smooth ice of the 2002 studded and studless tires were 0.23 and 0.17 respectively, and a comparable value for an 'All Season' tire would be about 0.13.
1sttruck:
I have for decades been a proponent of studs. I've often searched for articles on the internet, both pro and con, on studs. This is by far the best article I've ever read on the subject. It disposes of many myths (which I've long argued against) about the (wrongly) asserted drawbacks of studs. Thanks much for posting the article.
I have for decades been a proponent of studs. I've often searched for articles on the internet, both pro and con, on studs. This is by far the best article I've ever read on the subject. It disposes of many myths (which I've long argued against) about the (wrongly) asserted drawbacks of studs. Thanks much for posting the article.
I prefer studs, but both sets of studable snowtires that I own are not studded simply because of PA's emmision testing laws. Both vehicles require dyno emmision testing during the winter months. Since studded tires are not permitted on dynos, I opted to do without studs instead of going through the trouble of switching tires just to dyno-test the cars.
There's NOTHING like having proper winter tires in terrible weather.
I have 4 studded Nokian Hakkapelita 2s on 15" steel rims on a 2003 Nissan Sentra SpecV ... a car not known for winter-driving prowess.
Last night (New Year's Eve), I drove home ... about 30 miles at 12:30am. Conditions were 3-4" of snow with some ice underneath. Slippery overall and very slippery in spots.
Most people were doing 15-30mph. I was averaging 40-50mph and actually hit 60mph on a short stretch when no one was around me. I passed about 50-60 cars during my trip ... and was passed by no one.
An AWD Audi was able to maintain my pace for a few miles ... but then he turned off.
I'd like to think I have immortal driving skills on par with WRC Champion Sebastien Loeb ... but it's mostly the tires ...
... and that fact a lot of drivers out there downright suck.
--- Bror Jace
I have 4 studded Nokian Hakkapelita 2s on 15" steel rims on a 2003 Nissan Sentra SpecV ... a car not known for winter-driving prowess.
Last night (New Year's Eve), I drove home ... about 30 miles at 12:30am. Conditions were 3-4" of snow with some ice underneath. Slippery overall and very slippery in spots.
Most people were doing 15-30mph. I was averaging 40-50mph and actually hit 60mph on a short stretch when no one was around me. I passed about 50-60 cars during my trip ... and was passed by no one.
An AWD Audi was able to maintain my pace for a few miles ... but then he turned off.
I'd like to think I have immortal driving skills on par with WRC Champion Sebastien Loeb ... but it's mostly the tires ...
... and that fact a lot of drivers out there downright suck.
--- Bror Jace
For a place like Chicago that can get hit with big snowstorms, but usually has a lot of cold dry days in winter, I've found that Michelin Pilot Alpins work reasonably well in the snow, and handle like a performance all season when the weather is good. They are a little noisier than most all-season tires (about on par with summer performance tires), but not too imposing.
225/55/16 Dunlop M3 Wintersport on the 528iT wagon, 196/65/15 WS-50 Blizzaks on the wifes 323, and 205/55/16 M3's on the daughters Jetta GLI.
Gotton some use lately in CT. I think my old Michelin Artic Alpins were a little grippier in snow than the M3's but I do an awful lot of 75+ on dry highways, thus the H-rated Dunlops. No complaints, other than they seem a little hard to keep in balance.
Gotton some use lately in CT. I think my old Michelin Artic Alpins were a little grippier in snow than the M3's but I do an awful lot of 75+ on dry highways, thus the H-rated Dunlops. No complaints, other than they seem a little hard to keep in balance.
My $.02...
The Arctic Alpins have been a great all-around winter tire. Quiet, track excellent, good handling, good in rain and dry, good in ice and moderately deep snow. But not as good as others in deep snow; but better than others when dry. Alas, they are discontinued.
My next winter tire will be either the Blizzack Revo 1 or the X-ice. The x-ice is a better all-around winter tire; the revo a better deep-snow tire. Or so I understand.
The Q-rated arctic alpins worked great in 80-100 mph stints in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana the past two winters on my Audi quattro. H-rated tires weren't needed in winter (cold and < 100 mph) so I wouldn't want to compromise traction for handling as with tires such as the M3 or Pilot Alpin.
The Arctic Alpins have been a great all-around winter tire. Quiet, track excellent, good handling, good in rain and dry, good in ice and moderately deep snow. But not as good as others in deep snow; but better than others when dry. Alas, they are discontinued.
My next winter tire will be either the Blizzack Revo 1 or the X-ice. The x-ice is a better all-around winter tire; the revo a better deep-snow tire. Or so I understand.
The Q-rated arctic alpins worked great in 80-100 mph stints in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana the past two winters on my Audi quattro. H-rated tires weren't needed in winter (cold and < 100 mph) so I wouldn't want to compromise traction for handling as with tires such as the M3 or Pilot Alpin.
hey Bror Jace,
i am running 4 hakka 1's 16 inch tires on steel wheels ( winter only ),
i have had snows from Pirrelli,Michelin,and Bridgestone ,
but running on hakkas all the others seemed to be just like allseason tires ,
Hakka's are the best ! i have left even 4x4's
in my snow dust !
i am running 4 hakka 1's 16 inch tires on steel wheels ( winter only ),
i have had snows from Pirrelli,Michelin,and Bridgestone ,
but running on hakkas all the others seemed to be just like allseason tires ,
Hakka's are the best ! i have left even 4x4's
in my snow dust !
Moloch, I live in North Buffalo and am too cursing mother Nature. I spent all that money on some Nokians and nothing. I complain to people every day. It was in the 50's the last few days. I haven't used 4x4 yet this year except a time or two for "fun".
Fourth winter with Blizzaks on my Jetta and couldn't be happier. Great lateral stability at speed, good braking, and a funny feeling with marginal noise in the dry. Good choice for dedicated snows.
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