safety wired bolts are for applicationshere the bolt or nut might be turned, like driveshaft nuts or steering knuckles etc...
Anti-Seize vs. Loctite
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
safety wired bolts are for applicationshere the bolt or nut might be turned, like driveshaft nuts or steering knuckles etc...
OK, let's forget the bolt coming lose then.
How would you know that you did/didn't take a bolt from its elastic range and into the plastic range, therefore permanently deforming the bolt?
safety wired bolts are for applicationshere the bolt or nut might be turned, like driveshaft nuts or steering knuckles etc...
OK, let's forget the bolt coming lose then.
How would you know that you did/didn't take a bolt from its elastic range and into the plastic range, therefore permanently deforming the bolt?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
safety wired bolts are for applicationshere the bolt or nut might be turned, like driveshaft nuts or steering knuckles etc...
OK, let's forget the bolt coming lose then.
How would you know that you did/didn't take a bolt from its elastic range and into the plastic range, therefore permanently deforming the bolt?
You have to be really over-torquing to take a bolt into the plastic range, and when you do, you can feel it start to give. At that point, you need to carefully back it out or it will snap. Personally, I never use a torque wrench except on critical bolts. My hand is pretty well calibrated to the point I have never snapped a bolt nor had one come loose.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
safety wired bolts are for applicationshere the bolt or nut might be turned, like driveshaft nuts or steering knuckles etc...
OK, let's forget the bolt coming lose then.
How would you know that you did/didn't take a bolt from its elastic range and into the plastic range, therefore permanently deforming the bolt?
You have to be really over-torquing to take a bolt into the plastic range, and when you do, you can feel it start to give. At that point, you need to carefully back it out or it will snap. Personally, I never use a torque wrench except on critical bolts. My hand is pretty well calibrated to the point I have never snapped a bolt nor had one come loose.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
safety wired bolts are for applicationshere the bolt or nut might be turned, like driveshaft nuts or steering knuckles etc...
OK, let's forget the bolt coming lose then.
How would you know that you did/didn't take a bolt from its elastic range and into the plastic range, therefore permanently deforming the bolt?
I've snapped bolts before... ironically only bolts without copper paste on them. cheap quality used on the interior only until now though. You do feel it when the bolt is deforming but by then it's too late.
You know when the bolt is torqued properly, even without a torque wrench. The torque needed to move the bolt goes up drastically when you approach the correct setting.
Ironically, the pasted bolts don't require any less torque to screw in or out, but it does prevent them from seizing. you still need to crack them off though, after that it's much easier if the bolt was treated (in this climate).
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
safety wired bolts are for applicationshere the bolt or nut might be turned, like driveshaft nuts or steering knuckles etc...
OK, let's forget the bolt coming lose then.
How would you know that you did/didn't take a bolt from its elastic range and into the plastic range, therefore permanently deforming the bolt?
I've snapped bolts before... ironically only bolts without copper paste on them. cheap quality used on the interior only until now though. You do feel it when the bolt is deforming but by then it's too late.
You know when the bolt is torqued properly, even without a torque wrench. The torque needed to move the bolt goes up drastically when you approach the correct setting.
Ironically, the pasted bolts don't require any less torque to screw in or out, but it does prevent them from seizing. you still need to crack them off though, after that it's much easier if the bolt was treated (in this climate).
Originally Posted By: buck91
I antiseize or at least grease/oil most fasteners. Sure, some do get thread locked but the vast majority get lubed. I rarely if ever have issues with under/over-torquing or fastener loosening. I am also know to get a little anal with torquing everything to spec, though.
Specs usually are for clean dry fastners, so its difficult/impossible to lube AND torque to spec.
You can apply a "standard" compensating factor, but recommendations for this seem to vary hugely (20-50% or more, IIRC), and the difference lubing makes probably does too. Easier not to worry about it.
I antiseize or at least grease/oil most fasteners. Sure, some do get thread locked but the vast majority get lubed. I rarely if ever have issues with under/over-torquing or fastener loosening. I am also know to get a little anal with torquing everything to spec, though.
Specs usually are for clean dry fastners, so its difficult/impossible to lube AND torque to spec.
You can apply a "standard" compensating factor, but recommendations for this seem to vary hugely (20-50% or more, IIRC), and the difference lubing makes probably does too. Easier not to worry about it.
Originally Posted By: philipp10
You have to be really over-torquing to take a bolt into the plastic range, and when you do, you can feel it start to give.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I've snapped bolts before... ironically only bolts without copper paste on them. cheap quality used on the interior only until now though. You do feel it when the bolt is deforming but by then it's too late.
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
You have to be really over-torquing to take a bolt into the plastic range, and when you do, you can feel it start to give.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I've snapped bolts before... ironically only bolts without copper paste on them. cheap quality used on the interior only until now though. You do feel it when the bolt is deforming but by then it's too late.
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
Jetronic,
If I reading your last post correctly, you are assuming that every fastener, when at the correct torque, will seat and it will become obvious to the wrist that all is well.
...well, not all fasteners are like that
If I reading your last post correctly, you are assuming that every fastener, when at the correct torque, will seat and it will become obvious to the wrist that all is well.
...well, not all fasteners are like that
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Jetronic,
If I reading your last post correctly, you are assuming that every fastener, when at the correct torque, will seat and it will become obvious to the wrist that all is well.
...well, not all fasteners are like that
no, not all... bearing caps, head bolts etc need torqued evely and to a required spec.
for 95% of bolts it doesn't matter as long as it's tight enough and not to the point it's damaging.
Jetronic,
If I reading your last post correctly, you are assuming that every fastener, when at the correct torque, will seat and it will become obvious to the wrist that all is well.
...well, not all fasteners are like that
no, not all... bearing caps, head bolts etc need torqued evely and to a required spec.
for 95% of bolts it doesn't matter as long as it's tight enough and not to the point it's damaging.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: philipp10
You have to be really over-torquing to take a bolt into the plastic range, and when you do, you can feel it start to give.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I've snapped bolts before... ironically only bolts without copper paste on them. cheap quality used on the interior only until now though. You do feel it when the bolt is deforming but by then it's too late.
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
you might be right....but how do you know?
Originally Posted By: philipp10
You have to be really over-torquing to take a bolt into the plastic range, and when you do, you can feel it start to give.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I've snapped bolts before... ironically only bolts without copper paste on them. cheap quality used on the interior only until now though. You do feel it when the bolt is deforming but by then it's too late.
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
you might be right....but how do you know?
Jetronic, hmm 95%....so for every 95 bolts or screws, etc there will be five that need precision measuring.
I do not know for sure, but are you an inventor of mathematics? Let me run out to the vehicle and count a hundred fasteners to see if you are lying........not, I assume you are a lying sack.. I am tired of seeing made up statistics for whatever purpose....to deceive, to inflate one's self, or just spewing garbage from your running mouth... I dont know. Go peddle that garbage elsewhere please Sir
I do not know for sure, but are you an inventor of mathematics? Let me run out to the vehicle and count a hundred fasteners to see if you are lying........not, I assume you are a lying sack.. I am tired of seeing made up statistics for whatever purpose....to deceive, to inflate one's self, or just spewing garbage from your running mouth... I dont know. Go peddle that garbage elsewhere please Sir
I think I once fractured the engine case on a Honda dirtbike. It used a plastic cover with phillip screws to cover the stator. I installed and just kept a cranking until finally i realisez this wasnt a critical torque item and it was probably never going to seat. Sometime later, i was underneath the bike and saw a split or crack that was very possible That I caused.
So, usually parts manufacturing is nice and looks out for us, but sometimes we need to study what we are doing and realize, feel, and determine how much torque is really being applied AND what materials are getting cinched by this torque.
Eg, a 40" 3/4" breaker bar on air filter housings or spark plugs or drain plugs....because you may never feel them seat and should try to develop a feel for how much you are really twisitng.......also, no 1/4" ratchets on 8mm sockets to secure ball joints and wheel lugs
So, usually parts manufacturing is nice and looks out for us, but sometimes we need to study what we are doing and realize, feel, and determine how much torque is really being applied AND what materials are getting cinched by this torque.
Eg, a 40" 3/4" breaker bar on air filter housings or spark plugs or drain plugs....because you may never feel them seat and should try to develop a feel for how much you are really twisitng.......also, no 1/4" ratchets on 8mm sockets to secure ball joints and wheel lugs
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Jetronic, hmm 95%....so for every 95 bolts or screws, etc there will be five that need precision measuring.
I do not know for sure, but are you an inventor of mathematics? Let me run out to the vehicle and count a hundred fasteners to see if you are lying........not, I assume you are a lying sack.. I am tired of seeing made up statistics for whatever purpose....to deceive, to inflate one's self, or just spewing garbage from your running mouth... I dont know. Go peddle that garbage elsewhere please Sir
Jeez! You like to deal in absolutes, huh?
95% is one of the "standard" statistical confidence limits.
If it was used above in that sense, i.e. the chance that a given fastner, selected at random, is not torque-critical, is 95% or better, I'd certainly bet money on it.
There are rather a lot of fastners on a car
Jetronic, hmm 95%....so for every 95 bolts or screws, etc there will be five that need precision measuring.
I do not know for sure, but are you an inventor of mathematics? Let me run out to the vehicle and count a hundred fasteners to see if you are lying........not, I assume you are a lying sack.. I am tired of seeing made up statistics for whatever purpose....to deceive, to inflate one's self, or just spewing garbage from your running mouth... I dont know. Go peddle that garbage elsewhere please Sir
Jeez! You like to deal in absolutes, huh?
95% is one of the "standard" statistical confidence limits.
If it was used above in that sense, i.e. the chance that a given fastner, selected at random, is not torque-critical, is 95% or better, I'd certainly bet money on it.
There are rather a lot of fastners on a car
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
you might be right....but how do you know?
In most cases you won't know unless you take out the bolt in question, measure its length and compare it to a brand new bolt. If the bolt was taken into the plastic range, it will be slightly longer.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm not preaching here to start using the torque wrench on every fastener and install everything dry. Not at all. All I'm trying to say is to use some judgment instead of generalizations. Understanding how torque and friction affect bolt stretch helps with making an educated decision as to when to use a lubricant or the torque wrench and how the torque should be adjusted from the factory spec. if a lubricant is used.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
you might be right....but how do you know?
In most cases you won't know unless you take out the bolt in question, measure its length and compare it to a brand new bolt. If the bolt was taken into the plastic range, it will be slightly longer.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm not preaching here to start using the torque wrench on every fastener and install everything dry. Not at all. All I'm trying to say is to use some judgment instead of generalizations. Understanding how torque and friction affect bolt stretch helps with making an educated decision as to when to use a lubricant or the torque wrench and how the torque should be adjusted from the factory spec. if a lubricant is used.
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
I think I once fractured the engine case on a Honda dirtbike. It used a plastic cover with phillip screws to cover the stator. I installed and just kept a cranking until finally i realisez this wasnt a critical torque item and it was probably never going to seat. Sometime later, i was underneath the bike and saw a split or crack that was very possible That I caused.
So, usually parts manufacturing is nice and looks out for us, but sometimes we need to study what we are doing and realize, feel, and determine how much torque is really being applied AND what materials are getting cinched by this torque.
Eg, a 40" 3/4" breaker bar on air filter housings or spark plugs or drain plugs....because you may never feel them seat and should try to develop a feel for how much you are really twisitng.......also, no 1/4" ratchets on 8mm sockets to secure ball joints and wheel lugs
that's where experience comes in, I suppose?
I use the 3/8 ratchet for spark plugs. and I don't need to grip the end of the ratchet either, I can grip it halfway if I choose to. filter housings, I wouldn't even use a ratchet but rather a screwdriver, unless the angle is awkward. that's definitely a case of "less is more" and a place where some copper grease or anti-seize will serve you well next time.
8mm wheel lugs? now who is a liar?
I think I once fractured the engine case on a Honda dirtbike. It used a plastic cover with phillip screws to cover the stator. I installed and just kept a cranking until finally i realisez this wasnt a critical torque item and it was probably never going to seat. Sometime later, i was underneath the bike and saw a split or crack that was very possible That I caused.
So, usually parts manufacturing is nice and looks out for us, but sometimes we need to study what we are doing and realize, feel, and determine how much torque is really being applied AND what materials are getting cinched by this torque.
Eg, a 40" 3/4" breaker bar on air filter housings or spark plugs or drain plugs....because you may never feel them seat and should try to develop a feel for how much you are really twisitng.......also, no 1/4" ratchets on 8mm sockets to secure ball joints and wheel lugs
that's where experience comes in, I suppose?
I use the 3/8 ratchet for spark plugs. and I don't need to grip the end of the ratchet either, I can grip it halfway if I choose to. filter housings, I wouldn't even use a ratchet but rather a screwdriver, unless the angle is awkward. that's definitely a case of "less is more" and a place where some copper grease or anti-seize will serve you well next time.
8mm wheel lugs? now who is a liar?
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
you might be right....but how do you know?
In most cases you won't know unless you take out the bolt in question, measure its length and compare it to a brand new bolt. If the bolt was taken into the plastic range, it will be slightly longer.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm not preaching here to start using the torque wrench on every fastener and install everything dry. Not at all. All I'm trying to say is to use some judgment instead of generalizations. Understanding how torque and friction affect bolt stretch helps with making an educated decision as to when to use a lubricant or the torque wrench and how the torque should be adjusted from the factory spec. if a lubricant is used.
the torque needed to drive the bolt drops as you go into the plastic range. The key is feeling when the needed torque is rising rapidly, and judging the purpose of the bolt. a plastic cover has small bolts and doesn't need/withstand much torque.
copper paste isn't a lubricant, as is anti-seize. Not like oil is anyway. a clean bolt will go into a clean thread more easy than with the paste on it.. the benefit comes next time you need to remove the bolt. crack it off, and remove with little or no effort vs fighting it all the way out, or snapping...
Oh today I figured I'd try copper paste as a thread sealer, and it worked. Needed to fit a new coupling on an air line. will see if it holds...
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I hate to break it to you fellas, but the plastic range starts off quite a bit before you can feel it give.
you might be right....but how do you know?
In most cases you won't know unless you take out the bolt in question, measure its length and compare it to a brand new bolt. If the bolt was taken into the plastic range, it will be slightly longer.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm not preaching here to start using the torque wrench on every fastener and install everything dry. Not at all. All I'm trying to say is to use some judgment instead of generalizations. Understanding how torque and friction affect bolt stretch helps with making an educated decision as to when to use a lubricant or the torque wrench and how the torque should be adjusted from the factory spec. if a lubricant is used.
the torque needed to drive the bolt drops as you go into the plastic range. The key is feeling when the needed torque is rising rapidly, and judging the purpose of the bolt. a plastic cover has small bolts and doesn't need/withstand much torque.
copper paste isn't a lubricant, as is anti-seize. Not like oil is anyway. a clean bolt will go into a clean thread more easy than with the paste on it.. the benefit comes next time you need to remove the bolt. crack it off, and remove with little or no effort vs fighting it all the way out, or snapping...
Oh today I figured I'd try copper paste as a thread sealer, and it worked. Needed to fit a new coupling on an air line. will see if it holds...
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
the torque needed to drive the bolt drops as you go into the plastic range. The key is feeling when the needed torque is rising rapidly, and judging the purpose of the bolt. a plastic cover has small bolts and doesn't need/withstand much torque.
copper paste isn't a lubricant, as is anti-seize. Not like oil is anyway. a clean bolt will go into a clean thread more easy than with the paste on it.. the benefit comes next time you need to remove the bolt. crack it off, and remove with little or no effort vs fighting it all the way out, or snapping...
Oh today I figured I'd try copper paste as a thread sealer, and it worked. Needed to fit a new coupling on an air line. will see if it holds...
Please stop making things up. You will not feel the bolt go into the plastic range. By the time you feel it, as you describe, the bolt would go past its ultimate tensile strength and would be extremely close to breaking. It would also look like the example below the graph.
Below is the graph that I was thinking of when I was describing the ranges.
Here is an extreme example and a reason why TTY bolts should not be reused, or torqued with lube, if the specification calls for dry installation.
the torque needed to drive the bolt drops as you go into the plastic range. The key is feeling when the needed torque is rising rapidly, and judging the purpose of the bolt. a plastic cover has small bolts and doesn't need/withstand much torque.
copper paste isn't a lubricant, as is anti-seize. Not like oil is anyway. a clean bolt will go into a clean thread more easy than with the paste on it.. the benefit comes next time you need to remove the bolt. crack it off, and remove with little or no effort vs fighting it all the way out, or snapping...
Oh today I figured I'd try copper paste as a thread sealer, and it worked. Needed to fit a new coupling on an air line. will see if it holds...
Please stop making things up. You will not feel the bolt go into the plastic range. By the time you feel it, as you describe, the bolt would go past its ultimate tensile strength and would be extremely close to breaking. It would also look like the example below the graph.
Below is the graph that I was thinking of when I was describing the ranges.
Here is an extreme example and a reason why TTY bolts should not be reused, or torqued with lube, if the specification calls for dry installation.
Jetronic,
I suspect the problem with 'oiling the threads' is when you get AS or grease on the mating surfaces.
I suspect the problem with 'oiling the threads' is when you get AS or grease on the mating surfaces.
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Jetronic,
I suspect the problem with 'oiling the threads' is when you get AS or grease on the mating surfaces.
Your suspicion is unworthy. How do you imagine "grease on the mating surfaces" (assuming you mean the mating surfaces of the things the bolt is holding together) is going to break a bolt?
The problem is that thread lubrication alters the relationship between applied torque and axial tension, and does so to an unpredictable extent, hence posing the dilemma:
Torque it correctly (but dry) or torque it wrong (but lubed)
Each of us must resolve this dilemma in his own way. There is no one-true-torque
Glasshoppa
Jetronic,
I suspect the problem with 'oiling the threads' is when you get AS or grease on the mating surfaces.
Your suspicion is unworthy. How do you imagine "grease on the mating surfaces" (assuming you mean the mating surfaces of the things the bolt is holding together) is going to break a bolt?
The problem is that thread lubrication alters the relationship between applied torque and axial tension, and does so to an unpredictable extent, hence posing the dilemma:
Torque it correctly (but dry) or torque it wrong (but lubed)
Each of us must resolve this dilemma in his own way. There is no one-true-torque
Glasshoppa
Wish I had known you when we got in a 4.6L prototype ford modular. I used to work for McCord gasket. We reused the head bolts that came with the engine. Our method was to put an alignment mark on the head/bolt and loosen the bolt. Then we would tighten the bolt back to the alignment mark and see what the readout was on the torque wrench. Still not a fan of TTY so for my modular engine I bought studs for all of the TTY.
Use Loctite to lock things and use anti-seize to stop threaded fasteners from seizing. Ever thought of using the stuff ARP makes to put on threads? Rotating threads cause wrong readings for torque. Remove the friction and the torque reading is more accurate.
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