Alaska Airlines AS1282 door blow out!

Status
Not open for further replies.
If you watch some interviews of the whistle blowers who used to work for Boeing, you'll hear that planes are rushed through the assembly line, with incomplete assemblies due to the "must stay on schedule at all costs" mentality of their assembly line.
Also, many safety tests are skipped.

Penny wise and pound foolish. Boeing could have been a great company, but now I would never let my family ride on any Boeing plane.
It's Airbus 100% for me. Boeing has lost my confidence (for safety) forever.

I don't wish to paint with a wide brush, but I think it's a culture phenominon.
The US company's in general have CEO's who want to rush production, and cut costs.
If we use cars as example, the temptation of: If we can save $100 per vehicle we manufacture, and we manufacture 1,000,000 cars (for example), we can save the company 100 million dollars. And instead of taking 5 years for quality assurance of a new vehicle, lets do it in 18 months instead. That kind of cost cutting mentality is the main reason US companies like GM, Chrysler, Boeing, etc build inferior products in my opinion.

In Europe, the culture is different. Safety and regulation is a top priority in the aviation business.

I prefer to only fly Airbus planes. I'm not saying everyone should do that. But it's what I prefer to do for my family.
I do understand how you could come to that conclusion. For the past 26 years I have flown for business on the heavy side, enough to accrue 3 million butt in seat miles on all airlines with 2.5 million of it on United.

It really doesn't matter which plane I fly as long as United maintenance and pilots say it's ok to fly. I trust them to make that call for me.
 
I'm not sure why they would have to remove those doors. But, considering others are finding loose bolts, and Boeing issued MOM for loose bolts in the rudder assembly in December, I would say my bingo card will have Boing as the culprit.
Either way, they’re under the microscope now even more than they were, and it’s not going to be a positive thing for them.
 
Last edited:
GDfgc2vWsAAMAMQ


 
Yes let's take a close look. The potential bonus went up from 165% to 200% after another category was added to the list of things that merit a bonus. None of the original categories, including safety, were "de-prioritized." Product safety is still listed first.
 
Last edited:
Idiot light saying "check the pressure" came on three times before this flight. Alaska's answer was to restrict the airplane to flights over land only. Turns out, fourth time is the charm. This is not a Boeing problem, like the landing gear through the wing, it is an Alaska Airlines problem.

Just to be sexist, it was an all female flight crew. "Penny, your check engine light is on." "Oh yeah, it has been like that since I bought the car, I just ignore it."
 
Idiot light saying "check the pressure" came on three times before this flight. Alaska's answer was to restrict the airplane to flights over land only. Turns out, fourth time is the charm. This is not a Boeing problem, like the landing gear through the wing, it is an Alaska Airlines problem.

Just to be sexist, it was an all female flight crew. "Penny, your check engine light is on." "Oh yeah, it has been like that since I bought the car, I just ignore it."
I guess you've not seen the news where they're finding loose bolts on other max 9's owned by both Alaska and United? It's definitely a Boeing problem still.

As for the second paragraph...while it might be funny since it is true for a lot of people, do you really think they didn't pass on the information to maintenance every time the warning reoccured?
 
The investigation will show that the spurious pressurization warnings had nothing to do with the loss of the plug, which was a sudden failure.
I'd love for the airline techs and pilots here to weigh in on just how often warnings turn out to be more nuisance than serious for aircraft in service. Sure, maintenance will check them out thoroughly before clearing the plane for service but not every caution alert reveals a real problem.
 
The passengers on Air France 447 might disagree with your perspective.
Yes, that was a tragic crash. I researched that crash. The captain left the cockpit for a break, his inexperienced co-pilots made some tragic human error mistakes. When the caption returned, there wasn't time to correct those mistakes and the plane crashed.

I feel very safe on Airbus planes. Safety is a top priority for Airbus. Boeing has lost my confidence as a flyer. It's more about trust.
I just don't trust Boeing's management. If a safety issue arises that could impact their assembly line schedule or if an safety issue is discovered that would require an expensive fix / recall and affect their profits, I just don't trust that Boeing management would do the right thing.

Like all things in life (even in marriages), once trust is lost, it's almost impossible to get it back.
 
Yes, that was a tragic crash. I researched that crash. The captain left the cockpit for a break, his inexperienced co-pilots made some tragic human error mistakes. When the caption returned, there wasn't time to correct those mistakes and the plane crashed.

I feel very safe on Airbus planes. Safety is a top priority for Airbus. Boeing has lost my confidence as a flyer. It's more about trust.
I just don't trust Boeing's management. If a safety issue arises that could impact their assembly line schedule or if an safety issue is discovered that would require an expensive fix / recall and affect their profits, I just don't trust that Boeing management would do the right thing.

Like all things in life (even in marriages), once trust is lost, it's almost impossible to get it back.
I discussed that crash in a bit more detail subsequent to that post. I recommend the Langewische article in Vanity Fair, he makes some great points, and provides good insight, but even he doesn’t get it quite right. He focuses on the wrong things, and has never flown an airliner.
 
I don't know who these whistle blowers are but this is how it's done.

737 Fuselages are built in Wichita Kansas by Spirit Aerospace, the company Boeing sold one of its manufacturing facilities to.


The fuselages are shipped by rail to Renton, Washington where the final assembly takes place. There they go through final inspection and test. An FAA rep or DER does the final inspection and if any exceptions are noted, a later shift attends to those exceptions. After the FAA rep or DER is satisfied, then a shake-out test flight is done with engineers on board. Any further exceptions are noted and the FAA rep or DER only signs off after those further exceptions are corrected.

JMHO, many, but not all, so-called whistle blowers are usually dissatisfied and incompetent people that Boeing should have fired long ago but because of Union rules, could not be.

Please note carefully,

This group also makes Airbus and Bombardier fuselages and components.
Thanks for your response.

The 2 Boeing 737 Max crashes were due to this sick culture. Boeing put the big fuel efficient engines on the old 737 design that was never designed for them as a hack so they could have a short term super fuel efficient plane solution they could offer to Boeing's customers as an alternative to Airbus who came out with those fuel efficient larger engines. Since Boeing had that hack, those larger engines made the plane top heavy, so they had to put in that sneaky MCAS system to compensate (that they didn't even tell the airline pilots about). And, of course, Boeing didn't do the proper quality assurance on their sneaky and secret MCAS system. After 2 tragic plane crashes where everyone died, Boeing has lost my trust forever.

What Boeing should have done instead of using that hack, they should have designed a new plane that was designed to carry the larger fuel efficient engines, not retrofit existing old 737 design with 2 new large engines. They saved a lot of money and time to market was fast, but the end result of that decision was catastrophic, both in loss of life, and loss of Billions of dollars to Boeing's balance sheet.

In my humble opinion, the company has a sick culture where profits and avoiding assembly line delays take priority over safety. Once my trust is lost in a company, it's usually impossible for anything to change that. Boeing's management never learns and sadly History is likely to repeat itself. Hence, It's only Airbus planes for my family.
 
Thanks for your response.

The 2 Boeing 737 Max crashes were due to this sick culture. Boeing put the big fuel efficient engines on the old 737 design that was never designed for them as a hack so they could have a short term super fuel efficient plane solution they could offer to Boeing's customers as an alternative to Airbus who came out with those fuel efficient larger engines. Since Boeing had that hack, those larger engines made the plane top heavy, so they had to put in that sneaky MCAS system to compensate (that they didn't even tell the airline pilots about). And, of course, Boeing didn't do the proper quality assurance on their sneaky and secret MCAS system. After 2 tragic plane crashes where everyone died, Boeing has lost my trust forever.

What Boeing should have done instead of using that hack, they should have designed a new plane that was designed to carry the larger fuel efficient engines, not retrofit existing old 737 design with 2 new large engines. They saved a lot of money and time to market was fast, but the end result of that decision was catastrophic, both in loss of life, and loss of Billions of dollars to Boeing's balance sheet.

In my humble opinion, the company has a sick culture where profits and avoiding assembly line delays take priority over safety. Once my trust is lost in a company, it's usually impossible for anything to change that. Boeing's management never learns and sadly History is likely to repeat itself. Hence, It's only Airbus planes for my family.
I’m not a Max fan. Search my posts on it. Let us not forget that Boeing was heavily pressured to keep the 737 in production by an airline whose absolute core business model, whose very existence, required new 737s.

They could not have survived if they had to switch fleet types. They lobbied hard for new, fuel efficient 737s.

The failures were not solely internal to Boeing.

Your post is, well, old news to those of us in the industry. For example.

Post in thread 'United Airlines Places Orders for 100 787s + 100 Options, Orders 56 737MAX + 44 Exercised Options'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...7max-44-exercised-options.363074/post-6645311

But the tail snapped off AA587 because Airbus designed only to the minimum strength required, and it couldn’t handle the inappropriate rudder input of the FO.

AF 447 was partly a design flaw in the pitot tubes, and partly the ergonomic failures of the entire Airbus flight control system, duplicated and repeated on the A-330, A-340, A-350 and A-380. It was more than just pilot error.

The A-320 that flew into the trees in Toulouse on a demo flight? Pilot error. Flight control system logic was not understood by an Airbus Test pilot. What chance did AF 447 have if the Test Pilot at Airbus got the logic wrong?

The way Airbus has developed the flight controls (fly by wire) in every single airliner they sell, is that the pilot cannot override the computers limitations. Through the ergonomic failures of displaying “alternate law” as happened in AF447 the pilot can be kept from understanding what is happening to the airplane, and if the airplane decides that the pilot is wrong, the airplane wins.

Even when the pilot is right.

There have been plenty of crashes of Airbus airplanes. Many pilot error, of course, but many of those errors are driven by the way Airbus built the flight controls, and display interfaces.

It’s your choice, but to say that Boeing builds trash, and Airbus builds perfect, is to grossly miss state, the reality of airliner design, construction, and the interface between engineering and pilot performance.

I am not defending Boeing, nor am I defending the Max. However, I do not agree with specious oversimplifications, particularly when they lead to uninformed blanket pronouncements.

Edit: one might say, that, after examining the Pinto, and the Explorer, that I will never put my family in a Ford. They’ve lost my trust. They are a terrible company, rife with corruption and poor build quality.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your response.

The 2 Boeing 737 Max crashes were due to this sick culture. Boeing put the big fuel efficient engines on the old 737 design that was never designed for them as a hack so they could have a short term super fuel efficient plane solution they could offer to Boeing's customers as an alternative to Airbus who came out with those fuel efficient larger engines. Since Boeing had that hack, those larger engines made the plane top heavy, so they had to put in that sneaky MCAS system to compensate (that they didn't even tell the airline pilots about). And, of course, Boeing didn't do the proper quality assurance on their sneaky and secret MCAS system. After 2 tragic plane crashes where everyone died, Boeing has lost my trust forever.

What Boeing should have done instead of using that hack, they should have designed a new plane that was designed to carry the larger fuel efficient engines, not retrofit existing old 737 design with 2 new large engines. They saved a lot of money and time to market was fast, but the end result of that decision was catastrophic, both in loss of life, and loss of Billions of dollars to Boeing's balance sheet.

In my humble opinion, the company has a sick culture where profits and avoiding assembly line delays take priority over safety. Once my trust is lost in a company, it's usually impossible for anything to change that. Boeing's management never learns and sadly History is likely to repeat itself. Hence, It's only Airbus planes for my family.

The MCAS system was certainly known by operators and US pilots in particular would have been able to deal with the MAX8 issues. Training is the responsibility of the airlines, but the system was not “secret and sneaky”. Boeing isn’t blameless here, but look at the operators first.
 
Hmmm…

If you can’t access the article, it suggests Boeing had to fix poorly assembled areas on the fuselage that they received from Spirit Aerospace.

 
The MCAS system was certainly known by operators and US pilots in particular would have been able to deal with the MAX8 issues. Training is the responsibility of the airlines, but the system was not “secret and sneaky”. Boeing isn’t blameless here, but look at the operators first.
Have you actually read anything about MCAS? MCAS was surprise for many US pilots.
Also, Ethiopian Airlines is top notch company. For quick access, you have documentaries on Netflix, Amazon and HBO about MAX and how it played out.
 
Have you actually read anything about MCAS? MCAS was surprise for many US pilots.
Also, Ethiopian Airlines is top notch company. For quick access, you have documentaries on Netflix, Amazon and HBO about MAX and how it played out.
Ethiopian Airlines may be a top notch company. But, the First Officer of the flight only had 361 flight hours and 207 hours on a 737. Is that typical?
 
Ethiopian Airlines may be a top notch company. But, the First Officer of the flight only had 361 flight hours and 207 hours on a 737. Is that typical?
With how many hours should they start on a certain type? Usually, people start with 0 on any type.
Again, you are dismissing issues that AMERICAN pilots raised about MCAS!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top