Given that you can not tweak the car's charging system, isn't all this discussion academic? You could buy the fanciest external charger and the gold plated diamond encrusted AGM battery but if it is going to be a replacement of the OEM vanilla wet battery, what difference does the battery characteristics make?
AGM Battery . Who has the best deal and quality
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Originally Posted By: Vikas
Given that you can not tweak the car's charging system ...
It's not a given, it's certainly possible to modify/replace the regulator.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
... what difference does the battery characteristics make?
It's a difference of performance and value. If you don't know how or why something works then you cannot address it.
Yes, pound-for-pound the best of the AGM are more expensive than the cheapest flooded batteries. But, if you don't know how to address the differences you might not get your monies worth.
(side note: what are the odds that we both registered on this forum on the same day?)
Given that you can not tweak the car's charging system ...
It's not a given, it's certainly possible to modify/replace the regulator.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
... what difference does the battery characteristics make?
It's a difference of performance and value. If you don't know how or why something works then you cannot address it.
Yes, pound-for-pound the best of the AGM are more expensive than the cheapest flooded batteries. But, if you don't know how to address the differences you might not get your monies worth.
(side note: what are the odds that we both registered on this forum on the same day?)
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If one is buying a car AGM battery that needs the car's OEM charging system altered/tweaked it seems to me one is buying the wrong brand of AGM battery.
One plus of AGM is that it does not have special charging needs from FLA but can be charged at like 2x the rate of a FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) battery.
More cars are now shipping with OEM AGM batteries to deal with larger electrical demands I was reading.
One plus of AGM is that it does not have special charging needs from FLA but can be charged at like 2x the rate of a FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) battery.
More cars are now shipping with OEM AGM batteries to deal with larger electrical demands I was reading.
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
If one is buying a car AGM battery that needs the car's OEM charging system altered/tweaked it seems to me one is buying the wrong brand of AGM battery.
It's not the brand that's the issue it's the chemistry. AGM is not the same as FLA or SLA.
You certainly don't have to make any changes for it to work but if you want something 'better' there's lots of things to look at.
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
More cars are now shipping with OEM AGM batteries to deal with larger electrical demands I was reading.
No doubt that the mfg has addressed the charging needs (would love to get the details). I really doubt they'd spend extra on a better battery and ignore the other half of the system.
If one is buying a car AGM battery that needs the car's OEM charging system altered/tweaked it seems to me one is buying the wrong brand of AGM battery.
It's not the brand that's the issue it's the chemistry. AGM is not the same as FLA or SLA.
You certainly don't have to make any changes for it to work but if you want something 'better' there's lots of things to look at.
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
More cars are now shipping with OEM AGM batteries to deal with larger electrical demands I was reading.
No doubt that the mfg has addressed the charging needs (would love to get the details). I really doubt they'd spend extra on a better battery and ignore the other half of the system.
I will let you guys know how it does next week. I won't get around to driving it until then.
This is probably a good test 2 weeks in horrible weather.
This is probably a good test 2 weeks in horrible weather.
I highly doubt any Internal combustion engined vehicle charging system is Ideal for any battery, especially if the battery were deeply discharged.
One can try and rule out some batteries if they say want no more than 14.5v and their vehicle will do 14.9v, but there is no perfect charging system in a vehicle.
The vehicle manufacturers are more concerned that they do not overcharge a battery. Making sure the charging system perfectly recharges a battery to full for a maximum lifespan, from any state of charge, is hardly a priority for them.
Those that run their battery dead, and expect the alternator to quickly and fully recharge it after a jumpstart are seriously misinformed and deluded.
Even if the battery was removed from the vehicle and used with a specified charger of the correct currents and voltages for a particular battery, guess what, the manufacturers are continuously updating their perfect charging algorithms. A century old technology which is still being tweaked.
No alternator is going to do a perfect job on any battery. Far too many people act like the alternator is indeed a magical battery restorer, when in fact it does a poor job at returning a depleted battery back to 100%, and the lead acid battery, flooded/AGM or Gel, which gets to live its life closest to 100%, will last the longest.
Despite this fact, batteries can still live long lives, despite not being perfectly recharged according to the ever changing manufacturer recommendations.
AGM's do have advantages. Whether it is worth it is up to the individual, who should do their research, not just believe the hype involved in marketing these days, or what they read on some internet forum.
One can try and rule out some batteries if they say want no more than 14.5v and their vehicle will do 14.9v, but there is no perfect charging system in a vehicle.
The vehicle manufacturers are more concerned that they do not overcharge a battery. Making sure the charging system perfectly recharges a battery to full for a maximum lifespan, from any state of charge, is hardly a priority for them.
Those that run their battery dead, and expect the alternator to quickly and fully recharge it after a jumpstart are seriously misinformed and deluded.
Even if the battery was removed from the vehicle and used with a specified charger of the correct currents and voltages for a particular battery, guess what, the manufacturers are continuously updating their perfect charging algorithms. A century old technology which is still being tweaked.
No alternator is going to do a perfect job on any battery. Far too many people act like the alternator is indeed a magical battery restorer, when in fact it does a poor job at returning a depleted battery back to 100%, and the lead acid battery, flooded/AGM or Gel, which gets to live its life closest to 100%, will last the longest.
Despite this fact, batteries can still live long lives, despite not being perfectly recharged according to the ever changing manufacturer recommendations.
AGM's do have advantages. Whether it is worth it is up to the individual, who should do their research, not just believe the hype involved in marketing these days, or what they read on some internet forum.
Originally Posted By: martinq
Odyssey AGM batteries do not have a max-charge amp rating and do not 'need' a '25A charger'.
I was told directly, MORE THAN ONCE, by their tech people that anything under a 25 amp charger was much less than optimal for their PC 1500, 34/78 Platinum, 68ah, 850CCA batteries.
Even IF they were lying, and just trying to get me to purchase a fairly expensive charger, I STILL feel it was worth it since this also functions as a SAFE for this battery float/maintenance charger, which i will use to try and keep this thing as close to the above mentioned (by wrcsixeight) 100% charge as possible, for a long life
I do also plan on installing the higher output, 150 amp+ alternator/generator from the Escalade SVX in the future.
I know this still may not be 'ideal', but it will not hurt since it will have reserve to use for charging the Platinum, even when ALL accesories are running full tilt at night, in the dead of winter.
Odyssey AGM batteries do not have a max-charge amp rating and do not 'need' a '25A charger'.
I was told directly, MORE THAN ONCE, by their tech people that anything under a 25 amp charger was much less than optimal for their PC 1500, 34/78 Platinum, 68ah, 850CCA batteries.
Even IF they were lying, and just trying to get me to purchase a fairly expensive charger, I STILL feel it was worth it since this also functions as a SAFE for this battery float/maintenance charger, which i will use to try and keep this thing as close to the above mentioned (by wrcsixeight) 100% charge as possible, for a long life
I do also plan on installing the higher output, 150 amp+ alternator/generator from the Escalade SVX in the future.
I know this still may not be 'ideal', but it will not hurt since it will have reserve to use for charging the Platinum, even when ALL accesories are running full tilt at night, in the dead of winter.
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
More cars are now shipping with OEM AGM batteries to deal with larger electrical demands I was reading.
Yes, even AAA's battery service has informed me that they are going to start carrying replacement AGMs for all of the high zoot Teuton/Euro cars (and Miata MX5s) now on our roads (and ESPECIALLY in MY area, where they are MUCH more common than F-150s are in the heartland/south).
More cars are now shipping with OEM AGM batteries to deal with larger electrical demands I was reading.
Yes, even AAA's battery service has informed me that they are going to start carrying replacement AGMs for all of the high zoot Teuton/Euro cars (and Miata MX5s) now on our roads (and ESPECIALLY in MY area, where they are MUCH more common than F-150s are in the heartland/south).
I'll stick with a cheaper flooded battery rather than deal with all the hoo-rah that AGM batteries apparently need. More installed infrastructure to deal with those old-school batteries.
That should be Escalade EXT in my post above.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I was told directly, MORE THAN ONCE, by their tech people that anything under a 25 amp charger was much less than optimal ...
I have no doubt that they told you that but the truth is the batteries are very tolerant to a wide range of charge current. Bigger batteries can make better use of bigger chargers but it really comes down the needs of the application.
They list the same 50A charger for both the pc535 (7Ah) or pc2250 (114Ah) batteries The batteries really don't care much, go big if you want to but you don't really need to (for topping up anyway). Your alternator is definitely a 'big enough' charger. AGMs are fantastic at soaking up big amps quickly.
http://odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-ULT-010_0413.pdf
If you really want to spend money on keeping your battery happy then look for something with proper temperature compensation.
I was told directly, MORE THAN ONCE, by their tech people that anything under a 25 amp charger was much less than optimal ...
I have no doubt that they told you that but the truth is the batteries are very tolerant to a wide range of charge current. Bigger batteries can make better use of bigger chargers but it really comes down the needs of the application.
They list the same 50A charger for both the pc535 (7Ah) or pc2250 (114Ah) batteries The batteries really don't care much, go big if you want to but you don't really need to (for topping up anyway). Your alternator is definitely a 'big enough' charger. AGMs are fantastic at soaking up big amps quickly.
http://odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-ULT-010_0413.pdf
If you really want to spend money on keeping your battery happy then look for something with proper temperature compensation.
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WOW! A couple COSTCO Group 34's (their #9) @ $83.99 and a BatteryTender, Jr. ought to still be under $200... And provide 10+ years of service in most cases.
And you can use the charger on all your other vehicles.
That's just what we need: new cars with $300-600 batteries you can ONLY buy with "Governmental Approval" at your designated Energy-Savings outlet... And a note from your local Congressman.
And you can use the charger on all your other vehicles.
That's just what we need: new cars with $300-600 batteries you can ONLY buy with "Governmental Approval" at your designated Energy-Savings outlet... And a note from your local Congressman.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
I'll stick with a cheaper flooded battery rather than deal with all the hoo-rah that AGM batteries apparently need. More installed infrastructure to deal with those old-school batteries.
Maybe I'm the only one, but the standard flooded type has served me exceptionally well over the years, from tiny motorcycle models all the way up -- just comes down to a little maintenance (distilled water) and good charging.
For example, it got down to around 0°F here last night, so I thought it'd be a good time to thrown the Battery Tender on the F-150:
I'll stick with a cheaper flooded battery rather than deal with all the hoo-rah that AGM batteries apparently need. More installed infrastructure to deal with those old-school batteries.
Maybe I'm the only one, but the standard flooded type has served me exceptionally well over the years, from tiny motorcycle models all the way up -- just comes down to a little maintenance (distilled water) and good charging.
For example, it got down to around 0°F here last night, so I thought it'd be a good time to thrown the Battery Tender on the F-150:
Originally Posted By: evandostert
my group 34/78 battery is going south. I guess it's toast since it's from 2001. Time for a replacement. Want a good deal on a AGM. This car sits for lengths of time and want to try a nice AGM. Wow, they went up in price lately.
As I too have a vehicle that can sit for 2-4 weeks at a time, and have now had 3 poor Johnson Controls made batteries in a row (mid grade Autocraft came in car, replaced with 2 Everstart Maxx that have both vented an unacceptable amount of gas/acid out the caps and heavily corroded)I'm looking into something that doesn't have vent caps to leak from in my group 35 size.
Around me, both Autozone and O'Reilly's have their "house brand" AGM batteries for under $160. Compared to the DieHard Gold regular battery at about $130 I was planning on getting, I think I'll try something new. I can justify a small premium, but not a doubling of cost like some of the higher end AGM lines.
my group 34/78 battery is going south. I guess it's toast since it's from 2001. Time for a replacement. Want a good deal on a AGM. This car sits for lengths of time and want to try a nice AGM. Wow, they went up in price lately.
As I too have a vehicle that can sit for 2-4 weeks at a time, and have now had 3 poor Johnson Controls made batteries in a row (mid grade Autocraft came in car, replaced with 2 Everstart Maxx that have both vented an unacceptable amount of gas/acid out the caps and heavily corroded)I'm looking into something that doesn't have vent caps to leak from in my group 35 size.
Around me, both Autozone and O'Reilly's have their "house brand" AGM batteries for under $160. Compared to the DieHard Gold regular battery at about $130 I was planning on getting, I think I'll try something new. I can justify a small premium, but not a doubling of cost like some of the higher end AGM lines.
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Originally Posted By: Hollow
Around me, both Autozone and O'Reilly's have their "house brand" AGM batteries for under $160. Compared to the DieHard Gold regular battery at about $130 I was planning on getting, I think I'll try something new.
How much did Sears want for the Deka/East Penn made (I think??) Die Hard Gold AGM. or don't they offer one in that size??
Around me, both Autozone and O'Reilly's have their "house brand" AGM batteries for under $160. Compared to the DieHard Gold regular battery at about $130 I was planning on getting, I think I'll try something new.
How much did Sears want for the Deka/East Penn made (I think??) Die Hard Gold AGM. or don't they offer one in that size??
After several starts below -20C and my first at -30C (yesterday) I can say that the Odyssey is really doing well on it's first winter.
For some perspective, this is a 265CCA Odyssey in a 435CCA BCI-51 application.
Previously I was using a 220CCA Odyssey in a 525CCA BCI-86/26/75 application. This battery outlived the car and was then used for several years in the current car for a total useful life of 9 years (but I don't recall any -30C starts).
The price for these Odyssey batteries is the same as the larger, heavier and corrosion-promoting lead-acid batteries that are typically used but they last almost double (in my experience). Hoping for many good years with the new battery.
For some perspective, this is a 265CCA Odyssey in a 435CCA BCI-51 application.
Previously I was using a 220CCA Odyssey in a 525CCA BCI-86/26/75 application. This battery outlived the car and was then used for several years in the current car for a total useful life of 9 years (but I don't recall any -30C starts).
The price for these Odyssey batteries is the same as the larger, heavier and corrosion-promoting lead-acid batteries that are typically used but they last almost double (in my experience). Hoping for many good years with the new battery.
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JHZR2
Staff member
AGM does require some changes to charging profile and max voltage to reduce gassing and other issues. Doesn't mean that they won't do well in conventional systems. Value of the investment vs flooded is poor for many applications, though the prices are coming down...
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: martinq
After several starts below -20C and my first at -30C (yesterday) I can say that the Odyssey is really doing well on it's first winter.
For some perspective, this is a 265CCA Odyssey in a 435CCA BCI-51 application.
Previously I was using a 220CCA Odyssey in a 525CCA BCI-86/26/75 application. This battery outlived the car and was then used for several years in the current car for a total useful life of 9 years (but I don't recall any -30C starts).
The price for these Odyssey batteries is the same as the larger, heavier and corrosion-promoting lead-acid batteries that are typically used but they last almost double (in my experience). Hoping for many good years with the new battery.
You're running the battery closer to its max, so it will create issues with the chemistry, higher internal heating, etc. You can expect poorer life because of the size/rating you selected, unfortunately.
At the start its impedance is low so it will crank good, but as impedance rises, you'll have less overhead to tap into. Then the use starts to become abusive.
After several starts below -20C and my first at -30C (yesterday) I can say that the Odyssey is really doing well on it's first winter.
For some perspective, this is a 265CCA Odyssey in a 435CCA BCI-51 application.
Previously I was using a 220CCA Odyssey in a 525CCA BCI-86/26/75 application. This battery outlived the car and was then used for several years in the current car for a total useful life of 9 years (but I don't recall any -30C starts).
The price for these Odyssey batteries is the same as the larger, heavier and corrosion-promoting lead-acid batteries that are typically used but they last almost double (in my experience). Hoping for many good years with the new battery.
You're running the battery closer to its max, so it will create issues with the chemistry, higher internal heating, etc. You can expect poorer life because of the size/rating you selected, unfortunately.
At the start its impedance is low so it will crank good, but as impedance rises, you'll have less overhead to tap into. Then the use starts to become abusive.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Hollow
Originally Posted By: evandostert
my group 34/78 battery is going south. I guess it's toast since it's from 2001. Time for a replacement. Want a good deal on a AGM. This car sits for lengths of time and want to try a nice AGM. Wow, they went up in price lately.
As I too have a vehicle that can sit for 2-4 weeks at a time, and have now had 3 poor Johnson Controls made batteries in a row (mid grade Autocraft came in car, replaced with 2 Everstart Maxx that have both vented an unacceptable amount of gas/acid out the caps and heavily corroded)I'm looking into something that doesn't have vent caps to leak from in my group 35 size.
Around me, both Autozone and O'Reilly's have their "house brand" AGM batteries for under $160. Compared to the DieHard Gold regular battery at about $130 I was planning on getting, I think I'll try something new. I can justify a small premium, but not a doubling of cost like some of the higher end AGM lines.
Id say that you have a charging issue given what you've found. Perhaps Grp 35 has design flaws, and Ive not been thrilled with the maxx battery performance/longevity personally, but IMO you have an issue. AGM is less tolerant of abuse, and there isn't excess electrolyte, so overcharge or dryout happens faster, and can result in thermal runaway (fire) sooner. Id look into your electric system.
Originally Posted By: evandostert
my group 34/78 battery is going south. I guess it's toast since it's from 2001. Time for a replacement. Want a good deal on a AGM. This car sits for lengths of time and want to try a nice AGM. Wow, they went up in price lately.
As I too have a vehicle that can sit for 2-4 weeks at a time, and have now had 3 poor Johnson Controls made batteries in a row (mid grade Autocraft came in car, replaced with 2 Everstart Maxx that have both vented an unacceptable amount of gas/acid out the caps and heavily corroded)I'm looking into something that doesn't have vent caps to leak from in my group 35 size.
Around me, both Autozone and O'Reilly's have their "house brand" AGM batteries for under $160. Compared to the DieHard Gold regular battery at about $130 I was planning on getting, I think I'll try something new. I can justify a small premium, but not a doubling of cost like some of the higher end AGM lines.
Id say that you have a charging issue given what you've found. Perhaps Grp 35 has design flaws, and Ive not been thrilled with the maxx battery performance/longevity personally, but IMO you have an issue. AGM is less tolerant of abuse, and there isn't excess electrolyte, so overcharge or dryout happens faster, and can result in thermal runaway (fire) sooner. Id look into your electric system.
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