2nd Fram Ultra in a row with holes in the crimp

[ZeeOSix]

I took a stab at estimating how much oil might actually flow through these holes, using an online pressure drop calculator. I assumed 160 round holes 0.3 mm in diameter, with a 3 psi pressure drop across the filter element at a flow rate of 30 L/min with 10 cP oil. The oil flow through each hole is 0.037 L/min, or 6.0 L/min through all the holes, which is 20% of the total oil flow. Efficiency of the filter for large particle sizes would drop from 99% to 80%.

Obviously this model isn't going to be too accurate, but I think it shows that the unfiltered oil flow could be significant.

View attachment 188230

The right model would be flow through an orifice, not a pipe. I don't think it's going to be 20% of the total flow going through the whole filter.

Using this calculator for flow through an orifice, I get 3.3 L/min of flow using the same calculation parameters.

Flowrate Calculation for an Orifice Flowmeter

www.efunda.com

 

[TheOilWizard]

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Well played.

 

[ZeeOSix]

To add to my post #41 above, that calculation assumes all the small holes are getting that equal flow. But in reality, when the seam pleat is folded together in the normal position as assembled, those "punched" holes are not as wide open to full flow as they look when the pleat is flattened out as shown in the photos. So I'd say the flow through them is actually a lot less than 10% of the flow ... probably more like 3~5%, or less. Also, when the pleat is in the assembled configuration, the dP on each side of the seam would essentially cancel each other out, so there may not really be much dP across the assembled seam to make oil flow through it.

 

[KCJeep]

Premium Guard is looking better every day.

 

[wwillson]

I also was picturing this under a metal crimp. like the old school ultras.

Glad mine are all still wire backed media.

Correct, the current Fram Ultras no longer have the metal crimp or wire backed media.

 

[wwillson]

To add to my post #41 above, that calculation assumes all the small holes are getting that equal flow. But in reality, when the seam pleat is folded together in the normal position as assembled, those "punched" holes are not as wide open to full flow as they look when the pleat is flattened out as shown in the photos. So I'd say the flow through them is actually a lot less than 10% of the flow ... probably more like 3~5%, or less.

All true, however there is still some amount of unfiltered oil going through the holes in the media.

Also, when the pleat is in the assembled configuration, the dP on each side of the seam would essentially cancel each other out, so there may not really be much dP across the assembled seam to make oil flow through it.

I'm not sure the dP would be cancelled? The pleat is the same as any other pleat in the filter. If this one cancelled the dP, then all of them would and there could be little to no flow through the filter and the filter would run in by-pass most or all of the time.

 

[ZeeOSix]

All true, however there is still some amount of unfiltered oil going through the holes in the media.

Yes, maybe some ... but not 20% or even 10% like the calculations showed because I doubt the seam before you touched it looked spread out like your photos shows, after you cut the media out and stretched it out.

I'm not sure the dP would be cancelled? The pleat is the same as any other pleat in the filter. If this one cancelled the dP, then all of them would and there could be little to no flow through the filter and the filter would run in by-pass most or all of the time.

The seam pleat is not the same as a regular pleat, because it is basically a pleat that has been pressed together into a double layer. Do you have a photo of the seam pleat before you spread it open to see the holes in it?

If the seam pleat has both sides in "pressed" together (ie, two layers of media touching each other) and not flapping in the wind, then the pressure on one side will cancel out the pressure on the other side. The fact that there wasn't any glue between the two layers opens the possibility of oil getting through passages at the seam without being filtered, but it's probably a lot less than you'd think IF the two layers at the seam are actually in contact with each other.

Or was the seam pleat before you touched it spread open like a normal pleat? Or did the seam pleat look like a pleat that was folded together like a normally glued seam would look like.

 

[wwillson]

The seam pleat is not the same as a regular pleat, because it is basically a pleat that has been pressed together into a double layer. Do you have a photo of the seam pleat before you spread it open to see the holes in it?

Correct before the crimp comes apart.

Or was the seam pleat before you touched it spread open like a normal pleat? Or did the seam pleat look like a pleat that was folded together like a normally glued seam would look like.

Yes, that's why I'm saying the penetrated crimp is a big problem. It lets unfiltered oil flow right through.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So before you removed the media and stretched it out, the seam pleat didn't look like this? Top side of figure is the dirty side of the media, and basically shows a cross section of the pleats. This is typically how bonded or crimped seam pleats look, and the dP on each side will cancel each other out.

Do you have a photo of the seam pleat before you touched it?

 

[wwillson]

So before you removed the media and stretched it out, the seam pleat didn't look like this? Top side of figure is the dirty side of the media, and basically shows a cross section of the pleats. This is typically how bonded or crimped seam pleats look, and the dP on each side will cancel each other out.

Do you have a photo of the seam pleat before you touched it?

View attachment 188273

No, I don't have a photo, but I'm tempted to go buy one tomorrow so I can post a picture.

When I remove the media from the filter, I do not have to pull the pleated seams apart to separate them. They may be crimped together at the factory, but that is not how they are after the filter has been run and that's not how the brand new one was today when I cut it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

When I remove the media from the filter, I do not have to pull the pleated seams apart to separate them. They may be crimped together at the factory, but that now how they are after the filter has been run.

So when you looked at it before touching the media, the seam pleat looked like a normal pleat (not a seam pleat) like in my sketch above, but it had all those holes in it. So it looked like a normal pleat would look, but with holes? If that's the case, then I'm betting it was pressed together flat (and maybe it should have also been glued, to look like my sketch), but during use it must have separated because it wasn't glued.

Sometimes it's good to get photos before ever messing with a filter autopsy.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

Don't worry the sludge and large carbon chunks from the HPL clearing out all the commercial oil remnants will magically find and clog those first.

So now what is choice #2 for filters? Do the Fram FE's do the same thing? I still have like 6 old Ultra's for my cars as well as 3-4 Honda S2000 filters for the Pilot and 6 Hyundai filters for the Forte and Tucson.

That gives me about 1.5 years to get this cleared up.

 

[wwillson]

So when you looked at it before touching the media, the seam pleat looked like a normal pleat like in my sketch above, but it had all those holes in it. Like a normal pleat would look, but with holes?

Yes

If that's the case, then I'm betting it was pressed together flat (and maybe it should have also been glued, to look like my sketch), but during use it must have separated because it wasn't glued.

I believe that's what's happening. Or, the crimp is supposed to mechanically keep the seam pleat together, but it doesn't.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So now what is choice #2 for filters? Do the Fram FE's do the same thing?

The Endurance seam is sealed together from what's been seen posted about it.

 

[wwillson]

Don't worry the sludge and large carbon chunks from the HPL clearing out all the commercial oil remnants will magically find and clog those first.

Nah, the cleaning is pretty much done.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yes

I believe that's what's happening. Or, the crimp is supposed to mechanically keep the seam pleat together, but it doesn't.

Yeah, that's pointing to the seam "bond" letting go and the seam pleat unfolded in service. I'd bet a new filter has a seam that looks my sketch above.

 

[dnewton3]

Geeeezzzz ...
This is getting ridiculous. The former stalwarts of BITOG favorites (Wix, Fram Ultra, etc) all seem to be losing at the quality game.


Just for the sake of curiosity, I just cut open a virgin Fram TG I had laying about:
- end caps very well formed, and made of heavier (thicker) material than the EG caps
- reasonably well spaced (but not perfectly spaced) pleats, fully set and sealed into the potting material at both end caps
- no apparent gaps, holes or voids in the media (using a flashlight to shine through to highlight any problems)
- metal crimp band sealing media joint together; no loss of integrity here
- well formed metal center tube, with plenty of perfectly perforated holes (not louvers)

I've been a TG fan for a while now, and every one I've ever cut open had the above characteristics. As much as the Ultra may have more particulate holding capacity, I think I'll continue to defer to the TGs.

 

[wwillson]

Yeah, that's pointing to the seam "bond" letting go and the seam pleat unfolded in service. I'd bet a new filter has a seam that looks my sketch above.

I just looked at new filter element crimped seam under a 30x jeweler's loupe. It is clear that the seam was crimped together at the factory, as the perforations in both sides of the crimp are in the same direction. This pleat was crimped together, but came apart in service or during the manufacturing process after it was crimped. The new filter crimp wasn't pulled apart, it was already apart. I can see zero evidence of glue.

 

[ZeeOSix]

To make the construction of the filter more clear.

View attachment 188222
View attachment 188225

After looking at this closer, it looks like this is not a typical seam configuration like I originally thought - I wasn't seeing the whole picture until now. The sketch below looks to be a more accurate depiction - wwillson, is that correct? The two layers where black and green overlap seem to be "pressed" together to "bond" or lock them together. If they are pressed together so hard that it perforates the media and makes holes, then that's a manufacturing issue if the design is suppose to work if the manufacturing process is done correctly.

Where the two layers of the media (the black and green in the sketch) lay on each other are supposed to be "bonded" somehow. Just by pressing them together to make them lock together without glue seems kind of a Mickey Mouse way to do it, but maybe it works well if the manufacturing process is done correctly. A design can be prefect on paper if the manufacturing process is done correctly, but cause QA issues if the manufacturing is done incorrectly. That's why there are design engineers and manufacturing engineers ... both have a specific purpose producing a product from an idea in someone's head to the shelf for sale to the consumer.

 

[wwillson]

The sketch below looks to be a more accurate depiction

There is only one overlap, not two.

I was just handling the filter to look at the seam and the overlap crimp is falling apart as well. No glue.