2010 Accord Start Up Rattle/Chatter

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
IME, with my long dead 'new 11 spanglish Ford ranger OHC


What does that mean? "Your long dead" ..... you "ruined" another car?


Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
VVT is just junk waiting to break on your engine.


I have a hard time accepting that. Since 1990, it's hard to find any automaker who has more cars on the road over 300k+ miles than Honda. VVT has been in Honda's hands for a LONG time.


You're confusing VVT with VTECH. BMW has a long run of VVT, called VANOS and it does not have a steller record.
On the other hand, my little Mazda 3 has full VVT on the intake cam and at 110k miles, most on dino, it's pretty quiet at cold startup.

 

[redhat]

My K24 is pretty quiet at start up too. Running 5W-20 conventional ATM. I plan to use QSGB at some point too. Really like how it looked from PQIA and the price is reasonable.

 

[Phishin]

Here are the difference between the two:

i-VTEC

Honda introduced i-VTEC technology in Honda's K-series four cylinder engine family in 2001. With this technology

The intake camshaft is capable of advancing between 25 and 50 degrees when the engine is running.
Phase changes are implemented by a computer controlled, oil driven adjustable cam gear.
Phasing is determined by a combination of engine load and rpm, ranging from fully retarded at idle to somewhat advanced at full throttle and low RPM.
The effect is further optimization of torque output, especially at low and midrange RPM.
Valve lift and duration is still limited to distinct low- and high-RPM profiles.

VVTi

Toyota introduced VVT-i in 1996. With this technology

The timing of the intake valves varies by adjusting the relationship between the camshaft drive (belt, scissor-gear or chain) and intake camshaft.
Engine oil pressure is applied to an actuator to adjust the camshaft position.
Adjustments in the overlap time between the exhaust valve closing and intake valve opening results in improved engine efficiency.

Yeah, I confused what ARCO said. But I know Honda has used their VTEC for a long time. WHen he said VVT was junk and waiting to break...I assumed he was talking about my Honda engine. That is why I posted a response to him.

But regardless, back to our regularly scheduled programming......

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I had noisey vvt and sometime poor working system on the Toyota 1nz and 2az. Never experienced the honda vvt. It may well be a superior implementation.

 

[Phishin]

UPDATE:

The car has sat for 5 days. It's been FREEZING here. This morning, I opened the hood, set up my phone to video record the engine, and cranked it over. Like I said, it had been sitting for 5 days and this morning, it was -7 degrees.

And....she started perfectly, without a single weird noise, like usual.

So, I'm hoping this was a fluke.

My theory.......Maybe after sittin for a MONTH straight in the freezing cold, the VTC Actuator really did bleed down and she just needed pumped back up. So, maybe I just need to make sure I take her for a cruise once a week.

 

[Doog]

I have always had good experience with the Honda VVT but I only run 5w20 PP or QSUD in them and then they get real quiet over time. I get them used and after 20-25000 miles of syn oil they seem to quiet down.

 

[Subdued]

if a little startup rattle bothers you don't ever get something with a Subaru EJ engine. The tick will madden you!

 

[Phishin]

Here is a recent recording (this morning) that I showed the Honda dealer this afternoon. He wanted the video sent to him via email. Should hear back from him tomorrow with their plan of action.

 

[Phishin]

Sorry if that link didn't work. Sometimes I hate my phone.

 

[krismoriah72]

any engine with hydraulic lifters will do the same. very common with cars sitting for periods of time. Takes so many seconds for oil to circulate and pump the lifters up.

"ticking" at startup "rattle" at startup is the laymans terms...millions of posts about it on the net.

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
any engine with hydraulic lifters will do the same. very common with cars sitting for periods of time. Takes so many seconds for oil to circulate and pump the lifters up.

"ticking" at startup "rattle" at startup is the laymans terms...millions of posts about it on the net.



Did you hear the horrific "grinding" noise right after the car fired up? The noise lasts for about 1-2 seconds right after I stop cranking it over. I don't think that's normal, is it?


It sounds just like the VTC actuator problem that's been hash over before....the actuator bleeds down and the pin "disengages" the valve train. Once the engine starts the cams begin to spin, the oil pressure then builds up behind the VTC actuator, and the pin attempts to be forced into a "slot" that spinning....and the noise is the pin trying to engage the "slot" thats spinning.

 

[aquariuscsm]

To me it sounds like the top end of the engine is dry (or maybe the pistons are dry and banging around within the cylinders) upon startup,as if all of the oil drained down into the pan overnight,and is having to be pumped back up when you start it.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
To me it sounds like the top end of the engine is dry (or maybe the pistons are dry and banging around within the cylinders) upon startup,as if all of the oil drained down into the pan overnight,and is having to be pumped back up when you start it.


I doubt that because like the other poster above says, the noise is very distinctive with a sharp on-off pattern. If it was a dry top end it the noise would not go away suddenly like a flip of a switch.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
To me it sounds like the top end of the engine is dry (or maybe the pistons are dry and banging around within the cylinders) upon startup,as if all of the oil drained down into the pan overnight,and is having to be pumped back up when you start it.


I doubt that because like the other poster above says, the noise is very distinctive with a sharp on-off pattern. If it was a dry top end it the noise would not go away suddenly like a flip of a switch.


There is no such thing as a dry start or dry top end. It's something that people invented to justify the sounds they hear. Yes it takes some time to pump up the hydraulic lifters/followers, but there is no damage being done as there is oil in there, just not enough to take up the extra clearance.
It's like having a loose mechanical lifters, they will make extra noise but no damage occurs and they can go like that forever. The quiet valve, on the other hand, are something to watch out for in such systems.

 

[Barkleymut]

What did the dealer say? And how many rpm's is it running? Did you have your foot on the gas on startup? From the video it sounds like it is racing at 3K plus...but then again I have not driven a Honda since 2000.

 

[Vikas]

Ya, that seems to be racing too high. How cold was it outside?

 

[Phishin]

It was -3 F when I started it. No, I didn't have my foot on the accelerator. The car seems to rev around 2-2.5k rpm's when it starts under such cold conditions.

It does sounds extra fast perhaps because the car was in a closed garage when I started it. I was trying to amplify the noise I was trying to capture on video.


Service manager called me yesterday to confirm he received the videos and said he would get back to me today or Monday. He is sending the video to Honda Corporate.

 

[brages]

Originally Posted By: krismoriah72
any engine with hydraulic lifters will do the same. very common with cars sitting for periods of time. Takes so many seconds for oil to circulate and pump the lifters up.

"ticking" at startup "rattle" at startup is the laymans terms...millions of posts about it on the net.



No hydraulic lifters in most Honda engines, including this one, I am pretty sure. Hydro chain tensioner, maybe.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
To me it sounds like the top end of the engine is dry (or maybe the pistons are dry and banging around within the cylinders) upon startup,as if all of the oil drained down into the pan overnight,and is having to be pumped back up when you start it.


I doubt that because like the other poster above says, the noise is very distinctive with a sharp on-off pattern. If it was a dry top end it the noise would not go away suddenly like a flip of a switch.


There is no such thing as a dry start or dry top end. It's something that people invented to justify the sounds they hear. Yes it takes some time to pump up the hydraulic lifters/followers, but there is no damage being done as there is oil in there, just not enough to take up the extra clearance.
It's like having a loose mechanical lifters, they will make extra noise but no damage occurs and they can go like that forever. The quiet valve, on the other hand, are something to watch out for in such systems.


Maybe no oil pressure in the top end then? When you get ticking lifters for a few seconds on 1st of the day startups,something is either not lubed sufficiently or pressurized sufficiently. Mine will only tick if I park overnight on a very steep incline,so therefore something is definitely draining down.

 

[brages]

Again, K24 Honda engine does not have hydraulic lifters.