10w-30 vs 5w-40 question
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My New Holland tractor gets a 10w30 and sits a lot more than it runs. 296 hrs in 10 years should tell you something. it gets a 10w30 syn blend that I use in my semi truck and runs great.
dnewton3
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Regardless of grade, the oil film you are interested in is not going to be present after sitting for long periods of time. Once the oil drains down, it all sits in the pan, except for what may be trapped in the system by the ADBV. That's the bad news.
The good news is that oil retention really does not matter. It is a poorly understood phenomenon that the actual protective layer upon immediate start up is NOT, and I repeat NOT, the oil film boundary layer from oil pressure. Rather, it is the tribo-chemical barrier of oxidized chemicals/elements that is developed along the surfaces that prevents metal-to-metal contact. Yes, once the engine oil pressure is up, the hydro-dynamic film barrier essentially "floats" the components in bearings, and allows them to glide in cylinders, etc. But those are not in play upon immediate start up. But the TBC is always present, at all times. It is actually developed and promoted by the oxidation of the oil. Fresh OCIs will degrade that TBC until it is re-established via heat/oxidation again. This is why longer OCIs actually show LOWER wear rates in nearly every application I have ever studied.
Many of us have heard the old adage that "XX% of wear occurs at start up ..." Well - that is only somewhat true. It does occur, but it also will become almost non-existent as the OCI ages, due to the TBC.
Read my normalcy article. Purchase and read the SAE study I reference therein.
Simply put, start up wear is not going to be greatly affected by the grade you choose. And for that matter, neither is the overall wear rate, despite all the fear mongering about thin lubes and Ford's recommendations.
Real world proof, my studies of more than 10,000 UOAs, shows this grade topic is an overblown issue. A properly spec'd lube in a reasonable range is what is important. The rest is just hooey. And for anyone who disagrees, I ask for you to show your proof to the contrary of mine. Not interested in opinions, nor marketing hype or owner's manual "recommendations". I'm seeking real world wear data that would contradict mine. And to date, I've seen no one step forward to be able to do so.
Wear at start up is not retarded by the oil film; it is the TBC that averts wear in the first few seconds. And the grade you choose has no real effect in the development of that TBC layer. Only time and heat promote that beneficial oxidation layer developing. And once it's there, it does not drain off as does the oil.
The good news is that oil retention really does not matter. It is a poorly understood phenomenon that the actual protective layer upon immediate start up is NOT, and I repeat NOT, the oil film boundary layer from oil pressure. Rather, it is the tribo-chemical barrier of oxidized chemicals/elements that is developed along the surfaces that prevents metal-to-metal contact. Yes, once the engine oil pressure is up, the hydro-dynamic film barrier essentially "floats" the components in bearings, and allows them to glide in cylinders, etc. But those are not in play upon immediate start up. But the TBC is always present, at all times. It is actually developed and promoted by the oxidation of the oil. Fresh OCIs will degrade that TBC until it is re-established via heat/oxidation again. This is why longer OCIs actually show LOWER wear rates in nearly every application I have ever studied.
Many of us have heard the old adage that "XX% of wear occurs at start up ..." Well - that is only somewhat true. It does occur, but it also will become almost non-existent as the OCI ages, due to the TBC.
Read my normalcy article. Purchase and read the SAE study I reference therein.
Simply put, start up wear is not going to be greatly affected by the grade you choose. And for that matter, neither is the overall wear rate, despite all the fear mongering about thin lubes and Ford's recommendations.
Real world proof, my studies of more than 10,000 UOAs, shows this grade topic is an overblown issue. A properly spec'd lube in a reasonable range is what is important. The rest is just hooey. And for anyone who disagrees, I ask for you to show your proof to the contrary of mine. Not interested in opinions, nor marketing hype or owner's manual "recommendations". I'm seeking real world wear data that would contradict mine. And to date, I've seen no one step forward to be able to do so.
Wear at start up is not retarded by the oil film; it is the TBC that averts wear in the first few seconds. And the grade you choose has no real effect in the development of that TBC layer. Only time and heat promote that beneficial oxidation layer developing. And once it's there, it does not drain off as does the oil.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Sorry for my ignorance, but does the ester help clean or lubricate better?
Being a polar molecule, there are indications it helps with cleaning, and also "clings" to the metal better. Much beyond that is above my pay grade.
But, Dave is right, it's not going to make a huge difference one way or another. I do understand the concern in your application, because such vehicles go on a big jaunt, and then they sit for a period far beyond what a daily driver would.
Sorry for my ignorance, but does the ester help clean or lubricate better?
Being a polar molecule, there are indications it helps with cleaning, and also "clings" to the metal better. Much beyond that is above my pay grade.
But, Dave is right, it's not going to make a huge difference one way or another. I do understand the concern in your application, because such vehicles go on a big jaunt, and then they sit for a period far beyond what a daily driver would.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Once the oil drains down, it all sits in the pan, except for what may be trapped in the system by the ADBV. That's the bad news.
D16Y7 1ZZ-FE 2AZ-FE 2ZZ-GE, all those engines that I have rebuilt, there was ALWAYS oil on the camshaft, crankshaft/bearings, once the stiffening case is removed and the crankshaft is pulled out, there is easily 0.5 quarts of oil that still comes out, all those surfaces are plenty lubricated.
From Genuine Toyota Repair Manual:
1zz-fe Dry engine oil capacity 4.3-4.4 quarts
1zz-fe oil change capacity is 3.9 quarts, 0.4-0.5 quarts trapped in between.
Once the oil drains down, it all sits in the pan, except for what may be trapped in the system by the ADBV. That's the bad news.
D16Y7 1ZZ-FE 2AZ-FE 2ZZ-GE, all those engines that I have rebuilt, there was ALWAYS oil on the camshaft, crankshaft/bearings, once the stiffening case is removed and the crankshaft is pulled out, there is easily 0.5 quarts of oil that still comes out, all those surfaces are plenty lubricated.
From Genuine Toyota Repair Manual:
1zz-fe Dry engine oil capacity 4.3-4.4 quarts
1zz-fe oil change capacity is 3.9 quarts, 0.4-0.5 quarts trapped in between.
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Real world proof, my studies of more than 10,000 UOAs, shows this grade topic is an overblown issue.
Out of curiosity, how many of those UOAs are for 2010 or newer diesels which have fully functional DEF, EGR, and SCR systems on them? I would be interested to learn if there are differences in wear rates between those engines and traditional non-DEF, EGR, and SCR engines.
Real world proof, my studies of more than 10,000 UOAs, shows this grade topic is an overblown issue.
Out of curiosity, how many of those UOAs are for 2010 or newer diesels which have fully functional DEF, EGR, and SCR systems on them? I would be interested to learn if there are differences in wear rates between those engines and traditional non-DEF, EGR, and SCR engines.
Well, the SCR/DPF thing is not really an issue, as they are downstream from the motor. But there are myriads of EGR equipped commercial diesels since 2003 that have broken the million mile mark just like their pre-egr counterparts. They might have had to get a new EGR or EGR cooler in that time, but the motor is fine, unless they failed to address a EGR cooler properly and allowed a bunch of coolant to be ingested.
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Well, the SCR/DPF thing is not really an issue, as they are downstream from the motor. But there are myriads of EGR equipped commercial diesels since 2003 that have broken the million mile mark just like their pre-egr counterparts. They might have had to get a new EGR or EGR cooler in that time, but the motor is fine, unless they failed to address a EGR cooler properly and allowed a bunch of coolant to be ingested.
I think SCR/DPF is an issue as it (at least on Ford PSD engines--but I suspect on Cummins in Dodge trucks as well) causes fuel dilution from the extra fuel which is dumped during active regens and therefore **may** increase wear. This is why I would like to see a comparison of engines with fully functional emissions (not deleted emissions) versus traditional non-emissions ones.
Well, the SCR/DPF thing is not really an issue, as they are downstream from the motor. But there are myriads of EGR equipped commercial diesels since 2003 that have broken the million mile mark just like their pre-egr counterparts. They might have had to get a new EGR or EGR cooler in that time, but the motor is fine, unless they failed to address a EGR cooler properly and allowed a bunch of coolant to be ingested.
I think SCR/DPF is an issue as it (at least on Ford PSD engines--but I suspect on Cummins in Dodge trucks as well) causes fuel dilution from the extra fuel which is dumped during active regens and therefore **may** increase wear. This is why I would like to see a comparison of engines with fully functional emissions (not deleted emissions) versus traditional non-emissions ones.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Regardless of grade, the oil film you are interested in is not going to be present after sitting for long periods of time. Once the oil drains down, it all sits in the pan, except for what may be trapped in the system by the ADBV. That's the bad news.
I guess that you've never pulled much apart...you end up covered in oil.The pistons and rings are full of oil, the bearings are full of oil.
There are capillary spaces that don't "all drain back to the sump"...and they provide a lot of lubrication in the first seconds of operation.
Heck, the oil residence time in the ring belt area is whole tens of seconds in a hot operation engine...that's virtually forever.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The good news is that oil retention really does not matter. It is a poorly understood phenomenon that the actual protective layer upon immediate start up is NOT, and I repeat NOT, the oil film boundary layer from oil pressure.
Well said...oil pressure doesn't lubricate anything.
There is no "oil film boundary layer" from oil pressure.
There are two common misconceptions, firstly that pressure lubricates, and secondly that flow lubricates.
when parts are moving, the differential velocity, the converging gaps, and the viscosity provide the hydrodynamic oil wedge (film) that keep the parts apart.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Rather, it is the tribo-chemical barrier of oxidized chemicals/elements that is developed along the surfaces that prevents metal-to-metal contact. Yes, once the engine oil pressure is up, the hydro-dynamic film barrier essentially "floats" the components in bearings, and allows them to glide in cylinders, etc.
The residual, THICK oil will provide considerable hydrodynamic lubrication WELL before oil pressure is "UP"
oil pressure is an artifact of the oil pump providing excess capacity to supply the bearing side leakage...provide more oil than the system needs, and oil pressure goes "up".
Bearings can and do draw their own oil at sub atmospheric pressures...provided the oil is there, which is what the pump provides.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
But those are not in play upon immediate start up. But the TBC is always present, at all times.
The thick residual oil will provide closer to hydrodynamic for the brief few seconds that there's no oil pressure.
The "warmup wear occurs in the middle...when oil pressure is there, but viscosity is dropping...see the sequence IV wear tests...the oil is there...the pressure is there...and wear occurs.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
It is actually developed and promoted by the oxidation of the oil.
Contact pressure/heat, not really oxidation.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Fresh OCIs will degrade that TBC until it is re-established via heat/oxidation again. This is why longer OCIs actually show LOWER wear rates in nearly every application I have ever studied.
You are quoting that used oil pin disk experiment again...it didn't actually suggest what you are stating.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Many of us have heard the old adage that "XX% of wear occurs at start up ..." Well - that is only somewhat true. It does occur, but it also will become almost non-existent as the OCI ages, due to the TBC.
No, the wear occurs during warm-up...the oft repeated addage on BITOG, and here is wrong.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Read my normalcy article. Purchase and read the SAE study I reference therein.
But the SAE study doesn't support your assertion.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Simply put, start up wear is not going to be greatly affected by the grade you choose.
I'll pay that
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
And for that matter, neither is the overall wear rate, despite all the fear mongering about thin lubes
Myriad of papers have wear and high shear viscometry linked, statistically...until advanced additives are brought into play, and wear with reduced viscosity is reduces, but not eliminated.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Real world proof, my studies of more than 10,000 UOAs, shows this grade topic is an overblown issue. A properly spec'd lube in a reasonable range is what is important. The rest is just hooey. And for anyone who disagrees, I ask for you to show your proof to the contrary of mine. Not interested in opinions, nor marketing hype or owner's manual "recommendations". I'm seeking real world wear data that would contradict mine. And to date, I've seen no one step forward to be able to do so.
Who's doing the "properly speccing ?
If it's to be "properly specced", and "owners manual hold no sway, then what is the determinant ?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Wear at start up is not retarded by the oil film; it is the TBC that averts wear in the first few seconds. And the grade you choose has no real effect in the development of that TBC layer. Only time and heat promote that beneficial oxidation layer developing. And once it's there, it does not drain off as does the oil.
OK, now that you've made the statement, then how does your extensive UOA determine which is start-up, and which is operational ?
Why is sequence IV, the period between the thick oil cold start, and warm engine/oil the "sweet spot" for wear, according to people who have actually done a sequence IV wear test
Regardless of grade, the oil film you are interested in is not going to be present after sitting for long periods of time. Once the oil drains down, it all sits in the pan, except for what may be trapped in the system by the ADBV. That's the bad news.
I guess that you've never pulled much apart...you end up covered in oil.The pistons and rings are full of oil, the bearings are full of oil.
There are capillary spaces that don't "all drain back to the sump"...and they provide a lot of lubrication in the first seconds of operation.
Heck, the oil residence time in the ring belt area is whole tens of seconds in a hot operation engine...that's virtually forever.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The good news is that oil retention really does not matter. It is a poorly understood phenomenon that the actual protective layer upon immediate start up is NOT, and I repeat NOT, the oil film boundary layer from oil pressure.
Well said...oil pressure doesn't lubricate anything.
There is no "oil film boundary layer" from oil pressure.
There are two common misconceptions, firstly that pressure lubricates, and secondly that flow lubricates.
when parts are moving, the differential velocity, the converging gaps, and the viscosity provide the hydrodynamic oil wedge (film) that keep the parts apart.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Rather, it is the tribo-chemical barrier of oxidized chemicals/elements that is developed along the surfaces that prevents metal-to-metal contact. Yes, once the engine oil pressure is up, the hydro-dynamic film barrier essentially "floats" the components in bearings, and allows them to glide in cylinders, etc.
The residual, THICK oil will provide considerable hydrodynamic lubrication WELL before oil pressure is "UP"
oil pressure is an artifact of the oil pump providing excess capacity to supply the bearing side leakage...provide more oil than the system needs, and oil pressure goes "up".
Bearings can and do draw their own oil at sub atmospheric pressures...provided the oil is there, which is what the pump provides.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
But those are not in play upon immediate start up. But the TBC is always present, at all times.
The thick residual oil will provide closer to hydrodynamic for the brief few seconds that there's no oil pressure.
The "warmup wear occurs in the middle...when oil pressure is there, but viscosity is dropping...see the sequence IV wear tests...the oil is there...the pressure is there...and wear occurs.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
It is actually developed and promoted by the oxidation of the oil.
Contact pressure/heat, not really oxidation.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Fresh OCIs will degrade that TBC until it is re-established via heat/oxidation again. This is why longer OCIs actually show LOWER wear rates in nearly every application I have ever studied.
You are quoting that used oil pin disk experiment again...it didn't actually suggest what you are stating.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Many of us have heard the old adage that "XX% of wear occurs at start up ..." Well - that is only somewhat true. It does occur, but it also will become almost non-existent as the OCI ages, due to the TBC.
No, the wear occurs during warm-up...the oft repeated addage on BITOG, and here is wrong.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Read my normalcy article. Purchase and read the SAE study I reference therein.
But the SAE study doesn't support your assertion.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Simply put, start up wear is not going to be greatly affected by the grade you choose.
I'll pay that
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
And for that matter, neither is the overall wear rate, despite all the fear mongering about thin lubes
Myriad of papers have wear and high shear viscometry linked, statistically...until advanced additives are brought into play, and wear with reduced viscosity is reduces, but not eliminated.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Real world proof, my studies of more than 10,000 UOAs, shows this grade topic is an overblown issue. A properly spec'd lube in a reasonable range is what is important. The rest is just hooey. And for anyone who disagrees, I ask for you to show your proof to the contrary of mine. Not interested in opinions, nor marketing hype or owner's manual "recommendations". I'm seeking real world wear data that would contradict mine. And to date, I've seen no one step forward to be able to do so.
Who's doing the "properly speccing ?
If it's to be "properly specced", and "owners manual hold no sway, then what is the determinant ?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Wear at start up is not retarded by the oil film; it is the TBC that averts wear in the first few seconds. And the grade you choose has no real effect in the development of that TBC layer. Only time and heat promote that beneficial oxidation layer developing. And once it's there, it does not drain off as does the oil.
OK, now that you've made the statement, then how does your extensive UOA determine which is start-up, and which is operational ?
Why is sequence IV, the period between the thick oil cold start, and warm engine/oil the "sweet spot" for wear, according to people who have actually done a sequence IV wear test
Originally Posted By: mattwithcats
Lots of Euro 5W-40 Pennzoil at AutoZone for $2, pickins is getting slim though...
However, the Pennzoil non Euro 0W-40 seems to be unwanted. May make a good substitute...
To the OP's original question, I doubt you'll have any issue running 10w30 full synthetic with the appropriate diesel ratings.
Are the 5w40 and 0w40 PP Euro's really that much different or do they make both to satisfy OEM requirements?
Lots of Euro 5W-40 Pennzoil at AutoZone for $2, pickins is getting slim though...
However, the Pennzoil non Euro 0W-40 seems to be unwanted. May make a good substitute...
To the OP's original question, I doubt you'll have any issue running 10w30 full synthetic with the appropriate diesel ratings.
Are the 5w40 and 0w40 PP Euro's really that much different or do they make both to satisfy OEM requirements?
Originally Posted By: pbm
Originally Posted By: mattwithcats
Lots of Euro 5W-40 Pennzoil at AutoZone for $2, pickins is getting slim though...
However, the Pennzoil non Euro 0W-40 seems to be unwanted. May make a good substitute...
To the OP's original question, I doubt you'll have any issue running 10w30 full synthetic with the appropriate diesel r
Are the 5w40 and 0w40 PP Euro's really that much different or do they make both to satisfy OEM requirements?
There is absolutely no need to run a full synthetic in the 6.7, the manual calls for CJ-4 with no mention of synthetic.
I have been following the IOLM with 10w-30 with the last run just short of 10,000 mi. and an excellent UOA with zero fuel dilution and the emissions system is fully intact. The UOA's are posted in the HDEO UOA section. My truck is my work truck, its loaded every day with trailer towing thrown into the mix. I am well aware that the OP has a motorhome, it is geared to handle the added weight/wind resistance, your IOLM will not allow you to go as far as I do per OC due to higher rpm's turned due to your gearing.
Do a little reading in the UOA section, in my opinion 10w-30 will be just fine, your owners manual seems to think along the same lines.
Originally Posted By: mattwithcats
Lots of Euro 5W-40 Pennzoil at AutoZone for $2, pickins is getting slim though...
However, the Pennzoil non Euro 0W-40 seems to be unwanted. May make a good substitute...
To the OP's original question, I doubt you'll have any issue running 10w30 full synthetic with the appropriate diesel r
Are the 5w40 and 0w40 PP Euro's really that much different or do they make both to satisfy OEM requirements?
There is absolutely no need to run a full synthetic in the 6.7, the manual calls for CJ-4 with no mention of synthetic.
I have been following the IOLM with 10w-30 with the last run just short of 10,000 mi. and an excellent UOA with zero fuel dilution and the emissions system is fully intact. The UOA's are posted in the HDEO UOA section. My truck is my work truck, its loaded every day with trailer towing thrown into the mix. I am well aware that the OP has a motorhome, it is geared to handle the added weight/wind resistance, your IOLM will not allow you to go as far as I do per OC due to higher rpm's turned due to your gearing.
Do a little reading in the UOA section, in my opinion 10w-30 will be just fine, your owners manual seems to think along the same lines.
In regards to the TBC layer I don't think there would be any detectable differences. A 10w-30 should provide much less wear during a cold start vs. a 15w-40 though, and probably equal to a 5w-40 in cold start.
Roadrunner,
Question on the 6.7...does fuel dilution depend on regen frequency? 6 months into OCI...coming up on 5,000 miles...regens every 500 miles (lots of passive regens going on). Thanks again for sharing your experience...you are one of the reasons am going to use 10w30 after my delvac stash is gone. Thanks.
Question on the 6.7...does fuel dilution depend on regen frequency? 6 months into OCI...coming up on 5,000 miles...regens every 500 miles (lots of passive regens going on). Thanks again for sharing your experience...you are one of the reasons am going to use 10w30 after my delvac stash is gone. Thanks.
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
In regards to the TBC layer I don't think there would be any detectable differences. A 10w-30 should provide much less wear during a cold start vs. a 15w-40 though, and probably equal to a 5w-40 in cold start.
Viscosity has little to do with the "TBC", I agree.
But how do you think, and through what mechanism will the 10W30 provide "much less wear" than a 15W40 ?
In regards to the TBC layer I don't think there would be any detectable differences. A 10w-30 should provide much less wear during a cold start vs. a 15w-40 though, and probably equal to a 5w-40 in cold start.
Viscosity has little to do with the "TBC", I agree.
But how do you think, and through what mechanism will the 10W30 provide "much less wear" than a 15W40 ?
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