What to do about my Jeep Wrangler's neglected cooling system?

[Seth_TJ]

hello,

I am looking for advice on what I should do about my 1997 Jeep Wrangler's neglected cooling system. I bought the Jeep with 13k on it and I am not sure if the cooling fluid was ever changed at that point. Keep in mind I didn't know anything about vehicles or oil or any kind of tech stuff like that. I am now very hands on and like working on my own stuff. I run Mobil 1 and good filters and take care of all my stuff. Somehow I've seemed to neglect one of those most critical systems on my jeep though the cooling system.

I can't say for sure it has ever been changed since August 1996 so that is almost 7 years and 70k miles. The coolant still tested out good and looked -ok- so I never thought much of it. I was going to change it a year and a half ago but I didn't have any place to get rid of it, no recycling place is provided for me. I was going to dilute and dump it in the yard then but didn't because I didn't want to contaminate but it looks like that is what i'll be doing probably now.

Then I went to change it again about 8 months ago and radiator is leaking around seal (this is totally unrelated to not changing the coolant) these radiators are plastic top crimped on and notorious for leaking. I was going to just replace it but it stopped leaking.

So the situation i'm looking at here is a cooling system with a maximum of 70k miles and 6-7 years on it with no changes but it was possible changed twice, once before 13k and once around 27k (i can't remember)


So what should I do? I was going to do a Dex-Cool change but i'm scared off of that. I plan to flush it out a lot with distilled water and maybe use the Zerex G05 coolant?

And yes i'm aware of how bad of neglect this is so please do not lecture me. I was ingorant many of the years I owned this at least I started using quality filters, oils, and greases from the time I bought it.

Please advise!!!!!

Thanks,
Seth

 

[rgl]

I know squat about Jeeps but I would caution that dumping the used coolant in your yard is much worse than down a sanitary sewer (not storm sewer). I think the G-05 is probably the best bet, I am going to change mine out from green as soon as I have time. Don't fret too much, most people in the real (non-BITOG) world never change the coolant. Ever. So twice in 70k you are ahead of the curve. Hopefully it won't leak after flushing.

 

[Seth_TJ]

quote:

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Originally posted by rgl:
I know squat about Jeeps but I would caution that dumping the used coolant in your yard is much worse than down a sanitary sewer (not storm sewer). I think the G-05 is probably the best bet, I am going to change mine out from green as soon as I have time. Don't fret too much, most people in the real (non-BITOG) world never change the coolant. Ever. So twice in 70k you are ahead of the curve. Hopefully it won't leak after flushing.

---

rgl,

thanks for the input. I have always tested the coolant at least 2x a year and inspected it regularly. The leak isn't from the coolant it is from a poor and cheap design. It is a metal radiator with a plastic top that is crimped on with fingers from the metal part. It has a rubber seal in there that is just ready to go bad from the start. Hot-cold, hot-cold always wet.. terrible.

I wish someplace was provided for me to dump this. I am a environmental engineering student and I have a health respect for the environment. I am also at a wastewater I treatment certification level, I believe that a municipal treatment plant could treat the antifreeze but i'm on a home sewer. Even if it is like 8 quarts or something my tank is so small it will throw off the finely balanced process. At a municipal place it is unlikely the processs would be effected unless everyone dumped it at the same time. That being said maybe if I go about in an equalization tank method and dilute it or pour in a little at a time that would work ok for me. As for pouring it on the ground just about anything is biodegrable

well except plastic and glass and a fewer other choice "products"

little off topic there but yeah the Jeep's cooling system isn't any different from anything else!

I'll just be planning on A LOT of flushing I want to get my heater core, passages, and hoses nice and clean.

 

[Drew99GT]

I'd say start by draining the radiator and the engine block drain if it has one. You may find, however, that the block drain is literally encrusted in place. That's how it is on my Corolla. So, next, remove the thermostat, and take a looksy at the coolent passage leading to the thermostat housing. Also, look at the inside of the radiator. If they both look clean with no crusted deposits, then reinstall the thermostat housing WITHOUT the thermostat. You can flush the system in two ways now. You can stick your garden hose in the radiator with the drain still open, then start the engine which will circulate water through the cooling system and drain it out the radiator drain. Just make sure that the water level stays at the top of the radiator so you don't run the pump dry. OR, you can basically do the same thing by disconnecting the upper radiator hose at the radiator and running water through the radiator hose inlet with the cap on the radiator, and allowing the water to fluch out the upper radiator hose. I've even done it this way WITH the engine running as well to really make sure all the coolent gets out. Then, re-install everything including/especially the thermostat. Look up your cooling system capacity, divide by 2, and add that amount of 100% coolent directly to the system,, then top off the rest with distilled water. That way, you know you'll have a 50/50 mixture because only 100% water will be left in the block after you've flushed the system.

Now, if you DO have visible scale, buy some cooling system de-scaler and add it to the cooling system BEFORE you even start the flushing process. That's usually what the directions indicate for those products. Also, I would recommend using Toyota Red coolent in any vehicle, as it has a legendary reputation for almost indefinite cooling system protection. Just remember to flush the system like I described every two years, and you'll be home free.

 

[Drew99GT]

Oh, as far as environmental issues go, this procedure will allow whatever coolent was in the block to get into the environment after you've retained the coolent directly drained out of the radiator. If you can get the block drain open, you'll still have a very small amount of coolent stuck in some of the passages. It explains in my Haynes manual about this.

The small amount of coolent that gets in the environment will be dilluted to a ratio of about 10000000000 water to 1 antifreeze. Perhaps, after you flush it the first time, you could go with the environmentally freindly coolents so we can all sleep better at night.

 

[JustinH]

my 98 f150 has the green coolant, and I was going to flush it this week with regular prestone. Now you guys have me thinking about this g-05, hmmm.

 

[Ray H]

Second rgl's advice. Dumping on the lawn won't kill the lawn, and ethylene glycol is biodegradable, BUT the stuff also attracts animals which lap it up due to its pleasant taste. Very little kills 'em dead. Agonizingly. IF you're not on a septic tank system, just dump the stuff in the toilet and flush it into the sanitary sewer system. I know some communities forbid this practice, but there's really no reason to do so. NO community is allowed to dump raw sewage into rivers or streams - it has to be treated first. I don't find the prospect of a few dead sewer rats personally alarming, either. Your plan to go with an extended life coolant is sound, and you're on the right track with the distilled water flush. (Flush it repeatedly until the effluent is odorless and colorless.) If you get sediment or rust during the flushes, you may want to consider a chemical flush to dissolve and rid the system of every last vestige - which in turn may re-open the leak (kinda like the concept of the house that would collapse if it weren't for the termites all holding hands), but you really need to get all the crud out or your efforts will be pointless. Hopefully, your current coolant will drain clean and transparently tinted. Check all your hoses, too. If they're marginal, replace 'em before you waste your money on new coolant in the system. Finally, ALL extended life products, "OAT" or "HOAT" will fail if air is ingested into the system. It's just the nature of the organic acid salts now used as corrosion inhibitors in aluminum intensive cooling systems. In my opinion, DEX-COOL(tm) has been unfairly blamed for the sins of certain (usually GM) engines' intake manifold and cylinder head gaskets to develop leaks. Unfortunately DEX-COOL was used in vehicles manufactured by the world's largest automobile manufacturer, whose vehicles are bought by more consumers than any other make, and DEX-COOL was the first of its kind on the market. G-05 hasn't been available nearly as long, so there hasn't been as much experience with it in the field. I used DEX-COOL (Havoline - the alleged worst "offender") in my Honda Accord and never had a problem in the three years it was in service - and I checked frequently, too! DEX-COOL would still be in that car if I hadn't totaled it two years ago.) I'm NOT saying G-05 will be problematic for you. I AM saying ready your Jeep properly and take the "orange fluid of death" testimonials with a very large grain of salt.

 

[Drew99GT]

One other option I completely forgot, and would work perfect in your application, Prestone or Napa flush kit. You splice a connector in your heater hose (forgot which one, says on directions), which allows you to screw a garden hose right into it. The methods I described do the same thing for free.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by JustinH:
my 98 f150 has the green coolant, and I was going to flush it this week with regular prestone.

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Nope, Justin, you waited too long. "Regular" Prestone in the familiear yellow jugs is now an extended life product (5yrs./150,000 miles), too. - leastways in every WalMart in my area. Even WalMart's own "SuperTech" coolant has joined the extended life ranks, now. Both are still dyed green, though, but both appear to be the same forumula as Prestone's "DEX-COOL Approved" orange fluid in the silver-gray jugs - just cheaper because they don't carry any reference to DEX-COOL that would've required a GM license. (It ain't the forumula that's licensed - just the DEX-COOL(tm) trademark.

)

 

[Seth_TJ]

Thanks for the info guys. Can you all give me any more information on "Toyota Red" antifreeze?

Is it a dexcool type antifreeze or is it a modified "green type" antifreeze? I saw somewhere that it was a normal type antifreeze with extra additives and protectants?

I am interested in hearing the pros and cons of all four (Zerex G05, regular green, dexcool, and 'Yota red)

thanks for any information you can provide, let me know what would be best?

In addition, I would say that Dexcool would be a poor choice for me since I have a leaky seal on my radiator and I bet air gets sucked back in when it cools...

 

[VaderSS]

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=000007

 

[Seth_TJ]

Thanks vaderss.


Guys I am afraid to use Dexcool or the Toyota red with my factory "green" fill. I have been reading other threads and I am seeing the complications when mixing types of antifreeze (sludging, gelling, etc) and the same goes for getting air a a cooling system. I am also at a risk for having air in the cooling system (poor radiator design)


That being said should I go with the Zerex G05 antifreeze? Where can I find it? Does it have the same complications when mixed or getting air in it?

 

[Drew99GT]

You won't have any coolent left in your cooling system after a complete flush, so mixing is not an issue. As far as getting air out, after you have refilled the system, idle the engine with the radiator cap off. Wait till the thermostat opens (when the upper radiator goes from warm then immediatly to scolding hot, also, the level in the radiator will drop quickly as well when the stat opens), then top off once more. Shut her down, allow it to completely cool off (still with the cap off), then top it off once more after it's totally cooled back down, then install the cap.

 

[rgl]

quote:

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That being said should I go with the Zerex G05 antifreeze? Where can I find it? Does it have the same complications when mixed or getting air in it?

---

You have to call or drive around, from reading other posts on this even stores from the same national chains do not necessarily all carry it. If nobody in your area has it I believe the Ford Motorcraft Premium Gold coolant at any Ford dealer is G-05. And it's not really any more expensive at the dealer (about $8.50) So far I have not heard a bad word about it and I have tried to get people to post any experiences on this before.

 

[Ray H]

Both Mopar and Ford's fluids are made by Zerex (Valvoline), by the way - just dyed different colors. Mopar's is orange, Ford's is gold, amber or somethin' like that I believe. Actual Zerex branded G-05 is almost colorless once diluted so can be difficult to see in the transluscent overflow bottles. G-05 is phosphate and borate free, but does contain silicates. Hence the term "HOAT" - hybrid organic acid technology. G-05 depends on hybridization of both silicates and organic acid salts for corrosion inhibitor action. Only time'll tell whether this approach is better, or a passing phase playing on people's fears. The inclusion of silicates probably makes G-05 less susceptible to damage from air inclusion, but also leaves open the possibility of gelling due to hydrated silicates' inherent instability. (which was the original reason conventional coolants were advised to be changed out every two years or 24,000 miles.)

I'm still concerned that, once you get your cooling system flushed and refilled with $9.00/jug G-05 coolant, that leak is going to rear its ugly head again. (Murphy's Law) That type of aluminum radiator with pressure crimped plastic top and bottom shells is in use in many vehicles and hasn't been any more trouble-prone than soldered-up brass radiators. And, like the brass radiators, they can be repaired, though not by soldering. Replacement shells, crimp rings, and seals are available. Keep in mind that unless you see evidence of past coolant leakage at the crimp ring, you really don't know where the leak took place - could be a bad hose, clamp, or the heater core, too. Anyway, good luck, Seth_TJ.

[ August 26, 2004, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[Seth_TJ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
Both Mopar and Ford's fluids are made by Zerex (Valvoline), by the way - just dyed different colors. Mopar's is orange, Ford's is gold, amber or somethin' like that I believe. Actual Zerex branded G-05 is almost colorless once diluted so can be difficult to see in the transluscent overflow bottles. G-05 is phosphate and borate free, but does contain silicates. Hence the term "HOAT" - hybrid organic acid technology. G-05 depends on hybridization of both silicates and organic acid salts for corrosion inhibitor action. Only time'll tell whether this approach is better, or a passing phase playing on people's fears. The inclusion of silicates probably makes G-05 less susceptible to damage from air inclusion, but also leaves open the possibility of gelling due to hydrated silicates' inherent instability. (which was the original reason conventional coolants were advised to be changed out every two years or 24,000 miles.)

I'm still concerned that, once you get your cooling system flushed and refilled with $9.00/jug G-05 coolant, that leak is going to rear its ugly head again. (Murphy's Law) That type of aluminum radiator with pressure crimped plastic top and bottom shells is in use in many vehicles and hasn't been any more trouble-prone than soldered-up brass radiators. And, like the brass radiators, they can be repaired, though not by soldering. Replacement shells, crimp rings, and seals are available. Keep in mind that unless you see evidence of past coolant leakage at the crimp ring, you really don't know where the leak took place - could be a bad hose, clamp, or the heater core, too. Anyway, good luck, Seth_TJ.

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Ray,

I can smell the antifreeze sometimes and I can look and I can see it pooled around the crimp and I can see where it ran down/blew down the fan shroud. I mainly smell it in the winter but sometimes i'll smell it in the summer.

 

[michaelc80]

I don't know where you're at, but I just picked up 4 gallons of Zerex G-05 from O'Reilys in central Iowa (the last 4 gallons from the Ames store) to flush and fill both my 96 Cherokee and my 2000 Wrangler. However, I wanted a couple of extra gallons so I could also do my Nissan 300Z, and asked my wife to look for them when she was at the local Wal-Mart (in Altoona) and they don't carry it. It seems like it's hit or miss.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by Seth_TJ:
I can smell the antifreeze sometimes and I can look and I can see it pooled around the crimp and I can see where it ran down/blew down the fan shroud. I mainly smell it in the winter but sometimes i'll smell it in the summer.

---

If coolant is being expelled under pressure, then there's the possibilty that air is being drawn back in during cool-down vacuum. You're sure any nearby hose clamp is tight and that the hose is in good condition? If you don't deal with this while it's relatively convenient, you're risking dealing with it when it'll definitely be inconvenient. I promise this is my last word on the subject and I won't bug you any more!

 

[JustinH]

Just an update for the group.

I ended up buying some prestone at walmart today. It is the extended life variety. It is in a yellow bottle, and the fluid in the picture is yellow.

I get it home and its more of a neon yellow/green color.

It says it is good for 150k miles or 5 years.

I flushed the system in my f150 and it looks very clean right now.

Money well spent.

JH