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#2654799 - 06/15/12 03:18 AM 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why?
Tourist Offline


Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Malaysia
I have car manual which says:
10W30. For Ambient temperature -25C to 30C
5W30. For Ambient temperature not more than -10C

This is not the 1st car manual saying such things. Now, my understanding has always been, 5W30 should also be usable up to 30C but apparently not. Any reason why? BTW, car are not being used in the freezing Arctic.




Edited by Tourist (06/15/12 03:19 AM)

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#2654818 - 06/15/12 06:07 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Tourist]
jorton Offline


Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 3073
Loc: San Antonio, TX
5w-30 is Resource Conserving here in the U.S. Resource Conserving oil is designed to thin for improved fuel economy. Some 10w-30 are not. Non Resource Conserving oil is required in models that should not run 5w-20.
_________________________
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
- Mario Andretti



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#2654830 - 06/15/12 07:07 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: jorton]
Gebo Offline


Registered: 09/18/02
Posts: 1245
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: jorton
5w-30 is Resource Conserving here in the U.S. Resource Conserving oil is designed to thin for improved fuel economy. Some 10w-30 are not. Non Resource Conserving oil is required in models that should not run 5w-20.


So a 10W-30 provides better protection? I don't understand your answer.
_________________________
'98 LEX LS400 257K
'00 LEX GS300 180K
'02 4Runner 210K
'89 Prelude 4WS 280K
'05 Lex LS430 75K
'06 Toyota Highlander 122K
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#2654833 - 06/15/12 07:09 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Tourist]
sciphi Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 10008
Loc: Upstate NY
Outdated information in the manual. There's no real difference between those two oils near operating temperature.

FWIW, GM specs 5w-30 in all their new cars and trucks for sale in North America.
_________________________
2013 Toyota RAV4 XLE
2012 Chevrolet Cruze Eco

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#2654867 - 06/15/12 08:03 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: sciphi]
JTK Offline


Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: Buffalo, NY
+1. That's outdated information.

Considering today's typical off the shelf oils, I don't see the point in 10w30 anymore.

Joel
_________________________
2016 Subaru Forester 2.5, CVT. 2016 Nissan Quest SV (Babe magnet IV)

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#2654886 - 06/15/12 08:40 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Tourist]
Spazdog Offline


Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 5941
Loc: Arlington
My Chrysler owner's manual is similar but it allows 5W30 to be used up to something like 20C

I used 5W30 all last summer when it was regularly over something like 43 C (I think...I haven't used the metric system in a long time.LOL It was over 110 F) Point being that I have over 120,000km on 5W30 in a high boost turbo Chrysler and it is just fine. So I'm agreeing with everyone in saying that it is outdated information.
_________________________
2013 Chevrolet Cruze Eco - dealer Dexos
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1987 Honda CN250 Helix - Penn Platinum Euro5W40

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#2654930 - 06/15/12 09:51 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: sciphi]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6541
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Outdated information in the manual. There's no real difference between those two oils near operating temperature.


Not true, most regular 5W30 oils shear down to 5W20 rapidly. Easy to see in most UOA.

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#2655347 - 06/15/12 05:41 PM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: friendly_jacek]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 21472
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Easy to see in most UOA.


Except we don't have a lot of 10w-30 UOAs in similar applications and similar conditions to see if the same thing is happening. In any case, there are plenty of cases where the 5w-30 oils don't shear out of grade. One can cherry pick all kinds where there was fuel dilution, for instance.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Baldwin B1402
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2655616 - 06/15/12 10:24 PM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Garak]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6541
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: Garak
In any case, there are plenty of cases where the 5w-30 oils don't shear out of grade. One can cherry pick all kinds where there was fuel dilution, for instance.


Mind you, I didn't say all 5W-30 did shear down.
I said most regular 5W-30, meaning non-synthetic. And I didn't just say it. I did a study of BITOG published UOAs a couple of years ago that clearly showed that effect.

You can believe me but you don't have to. I don't care. If you have evidence that most regular 5W-30 oils don't shear down, I would like to see your study.

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#2655642 - 06/15/12 11:08 PM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: friendly_jacek]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 21472
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I'm not saying I have a study. I just don't think it's as big of an issue as it was even a few years ago. There are plenty of recent ones where they have not sheared out of grade. There are enough synthetics that have sheared out of grade, too. I'd be interested in seeing how the latest SN/GF-5 conventionals compare to SM/GF-4 in that respect. Also, I'm curious as to whether your study compared 5w-30s to 10w-30s. I'm not saying 5w-30 won't shear, but how much of an improvement does 10w-30 provide?

Personally, I think a lot of it is application dependent. And there certainly are varieties of 5w-30 that are more shear resistant (or perhaps thicker to start with) than others, and I'm sure you're study showed that. Anecdotally, when my carb and engine in the F-150 were bad, ordinary 5w-30 PCMO conventional wouldn't do the trick. The oil pressure light would come on at idle when up to temperature. Max Life synthetic blend (not an overly thick HM oil to begin with), exhibited none of that behaviour throughout the OCI.

My point really is that in certain applications where there is known shearing due to fuel dilution, I don't think a switch to 10w-30 is going to be a magic bullet. For my case, I stuck to the Max Life in the winter and a 15w-40 in the summer.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Baldwin B1402
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2655678 - 06/16/12 12:07 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Tourist]
Tourist Offline


Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Malaysia
Even this gasoline new engine comes with same unexplainable oil chart. For ambient temperature up to 40C, you can use 10W30 but not 0W30 or 5w30. As I said, this is contrary to my understanding of engine oils.

http://funtastickodesign.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/proactive_issue_43_web.pdf

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#2655703 - 06/16/12 12:50 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Gebo]
jorton Offline


Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 3073
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: jorton
5w-30 is Resource Conserving here in the U.S. Resource Conserving oil is designed to thin for improved fuel economy. Some 10w-30 are not. Non Resource Conserving oil is required in models that should not run 5w-20.


So a 10W-30 provides better protection? I don't understand your answer.


Heavy duty oil comes in 10w-30. It's not supposed to thin like resource conserving oil does.
_________________________
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
- Mario Andretti



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#2655852 - 06/16/12 08:54 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Tourist]
Gebo Offline


Registered: 09/18/02
Posts: 1245
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Tourist
Even this gasoline new engine comes with same unexplainable oil chart. For ambient temperature up to 40C, you can use 10W30 but not 0W30 or 5w30. As I said, this is contrary to my understanding of engine oils.

http://funtastickodesign.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/proactive_issue_43_web.pdf


Where was the chart?
_________________________
'98 LEX LS400 257K
'00 LEX GS300 180K
'02 4Runner 210K
'89 Prelude 4WS 280K
'05 Lex LS430 75K
'06 Toyota Highlander 122K
'09 Lex IS350 75K


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#2656162 - 06/16/12 04:34 PM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Gebo]
Tourist Offline


Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 93
Loc: Malaysia
I have a copy of the car manual using this engine. Is there a way of uploading the scan?

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#2670324 - 07/01/12 09:12 AM Re: 10W30 can be used but not 5W30. Why? [Re: Tourist]
jake88 Offline


Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 146
Loc: MO
5W-30 has a lower base oil viscosity and more viscosity modifier than 10W-30. Even though the polymer may have the same shear stability, the 10W-30 will shear less.

SSI or shear-stability index means what percentage of the POLYMER viscosity is sheared - a lower number is better. For engine oils we use the 30-cycle Orbahn injector test to measure SSI. Most heavy duty oils are formulated with 35SSI polymer.

So, a 5W-30 has a base oil viscosity of about 4.5 cst @100C, and is thickened with polymer to 11 cst @100C. If you assume that the real world shearing situation is similar to the Orbahn test, that means your oil will shear to 8.7 cst - (the polymer viscosity is the difference between base oil viscosity and blend viscosity)

A 10W-30 would most likely have a base oil viscosity of about 7 cst and will be thickened with the same polymer to 11 cst @100C (less polymer). This oil under the same conditions would be 9.6 cst @100C

So... you can see where there is a difference in the amount of polymer and shear stability. This is not universally true, as some oils may have more shear stable polymers and heavier, synthetic base oils that have exceptionally cold-flow properties
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