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#1173498 - 06/16/08 09:45 AM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: Doug Hillary]
RI_RS4 Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Rhode Island
 Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hello,
RI_RS4 - You said this;

"10 ppm in a 10 Quart sump = 30 ppm in a 3.3 quart sump."

Can you please explain................


Sure, generally the actual physical wear rate of an engine reaches homeostasis between the amount of wear particles of any size removed from engine metal and placed in the oil, and the amount of wear particles removed from the oil and captured by the filter. This results in an amount of metal particles deposited into the oil and diluted by the size of the oil sump.

Another way to look at this is by taking a wear measurement and computing the total weight of metal particles in the entire oil system. This is as simple as multiplying the ppm value by the total weight of the oil in the sump and dividing by 1 million.

Total wear by weight = ppm wear x total volume of oil x weight of oil per unit volume / 1,000,000

Weight = ppm x V x weight per volume / 1M

Thus, if you have two engines with two different size sumps, one that is 10 quarts, the other that is 3.333 quarts, and both measure 10 ppm, there is 3 times as much wear metal in the 10 quart system than the 3.333 quart system.

Weight(10qt)/ Weight(3.333qt) = (10 ppm x 10Qt x weight per volume /1M)/ (10 ppm x 3.333Qt x weight per volume/1M)

thus:
Weight(10qt)/Weight(3.333qt) @ 10 ppm = 10/3.333 = 3
At the same ppm measurement, there are 3 times as many wear particles in the 10 quart system than there are in the 3.333 quart system.

ICP measures the amount of a particular particle by weight. However, if there is more oil, there is a larger volume(weight)of oil to dilute the metal particles in. Thus, the larger the total volume of oil, the smaller the ppm measurement. This is a standard ratio problem.

There is a certain point, of course, where additional metal in the oil will itself cause an acceleration in wear rates, due to additional abrasion. I assume here that that we are not dealing with non-linear wear caused by particle abrasion ... however, that is not always the case in engines with silicon ingestion problems.

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#1173508 - 06/16/08 10:04 AM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: RI_RS4]
RI_RS4 Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Rhode Island
John,

On point 1 you are just wrong. Please see my post above. It does not require calculus to understand. This is a simple ratio problem.

Yes, I am experimenting with a non-approved oil, where I see a different and better wear profile by design than with approved oils.

Whether or not it makes economic sense is not part of my particular equation. If it's part of yours, that's fine. My economics work out when RLI is compared to approved oils.

I'm concerned with high iron wear numbers in an engine that has very few iron bearings. This is an Al engine, with Al/Si cylinder walls. most of the Fe is shed from cams, rockers, and cam chains. It is most likely that the predominance of the Fe wear comes from the cam chain, which is a single row design with bushings and not rollers. If a cam chain, or tensioner needs to be replaced in this engine, it's a very expensive proposition.

502 approved oils are typically $5/quart if bought by the gallon, or $50 per oil change. RLI is $10/quart if bought by the gallon, or $100 per oil change. RLI oil can run for 10K miles between changes, with less wear than an Audi 502 oil run for 5K miles. Based on this, I'd say that when comparing RLI to 502 oils, the cost is at least a wash. However, Al and Si wear indicators are also slightly lower at 10K miles for RLI than they are at 5-7K miles for 502 oils, so there seem to be additional wear benefits.

Whether this all translates to addition useful life in the engine is up for debate. However, on a cost basis, when compared to Audi 502 approved, RLI wins, since the cost is marginally 2X higher, but the OCI is 2X longer, and only one change is needed, rather than two.

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#1173710 - 06/16/08 03:13 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: RI_RS4]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
If you want to validate your position have Terry digest your samples too (he found a lab to do it). You can also (if I recall Jag's comments) get a PQ (test ..factor ..whatever it is) to determine some sizing relationship to indications.
_________________________
http://lube-direct.com/gallan/

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#1173711 - 06/16/08 03:16 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: Gary Allan]
RI_RS4 Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Rhode Island
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
If you want to validate your position have Terry digest your samples too (he found a lab to do it). You can also (if I recall Jag's comments) get a PQ (test ..factor ..whatever it is) to determine some sizing relationship to indications.


Gary, I have no idea what you are suggesting. Which of my many positions would you like me to validate?


Edited by RI_RS4 (06/16/08 03:17 PM)

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#1173720 - 06/16/08 03:31 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: RI_RS4]
JohnBrowning Offline


Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 9448
Loc: USA
RI_RS4 I can nopt argue that your responce was clear,concise and well thought out! I see wwhere you are going but I do question the why though??? It just seems like a waste of money unless you are going to keep this vechile for a long long long time! Even then with high end performance vechiles a certain amoutn of additonal cost of ownership is the norm. To bad you could not fix the overly rich condition with a reflash or with different parts etc....At best the RLI is a band aid for a much deeper design or programing flaw!

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#1173767 - 06/16/08 04:40 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: JohnBrowning]
SubLGT Offline


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 2513
Loc: Idaho
 Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
............ I see wwhere you are going but I do question the why though??? It just seems like a waste of money unless you are going to keep this vechile for a long long long time! ...........


Buying a RS4 instead of a Camry is also a "waste of money", based on your reasoning. It is clear to me that RI RS4 is an auto enthusiast, and an oil enthusiast, and has no qualms about spending money on his interests.

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#1173771 - 06/16/08 04:44 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: JohnBrowning]
crew219 Offline


Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 144
Loc: ITH NY
 Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
RI_RS4 I can nopt argue that your responce was clear,concise and well thought out! I see wwhere you are going but I do question the why though??? It just seems like a waste of money unless you are going to keep this vechile for a long long long time! Even then with high end performance vechiles a certain amoutn of additonal cost of ownership is the norm. To bad you could not fix the overly rich condition with a reflash or with different parts etc....At best the RLI is a band aid for a much deeper design or programing flaw!


He sold his RS4 awhile ago and bought an A6 3.2. I think he put 30-40k on the RS4.

RI_RS4: with those flashpoint numbers, how well do you expect this oil to hold up in a turbocharged DI car like the 2.0t FSI? Also, did RLI ever post any specific HTHS figures other than > 2.9?

Dave


Edited by crew219 (06/16/08 04:44 PM)

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#1173787 - 06/16/08 05:03 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: crew219]
RI_RS4 Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Rhode Island
Crew,

Yep, I did trade it for an A6 3.2 with FSI. Turns out that the 3.2 engine has similar issues, and reports higher ppm Fe wear, because the sump is 6 quarts, instead of 10 quarts. (Smaller sump, higher ppm numbers given similar internal engine wear profile.)

No new HTHS numbers that I am aware of. But based on the VI of 189 for the RLI Biosyn 5W40 oil built for Audi engines, and a very stable 100C viscosity, it should be extremely high. Contact Bill Garmier about this, if you like. As I understand it, a higher VI changes the slope of the viscosity curve, keeping the viscosity higher at temperatures above 100C than lower VI oil of similar viscosity. In addition, the VIIs used in the RLI 5W40 are extremely stable and expensive, which is one reason for the higher cost.

The RLI 5W40 oil has been used in turbocharged BMW 335i applications, which are showing extremely high oil temperatures, and outperforming the BMW oil. Terry Dyson has a few customers whose engines were destroyed when the standard BMW oil was cooked.

It may also help better control wear on that high pressure fuel pump cam on your engine, which uses a tappet type follower. The Biosyn formula seems to protect the ZDDP tribo layers by keeping them from being washed away by the fuel. (One of the reasons for higher Fe wear in fuel diluting engines.)


Edited by RI_RS4 (06/16/08 05:13 PM)

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#1173819 - 06/16/08 06:08 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: RI_RS4]
Steve27 Offline


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 8
Loc: USA
I've lurked around here for about 2 years and have kept up with RLI (among other things) on this board but haven't said anything yet. I decided that I would put in my 2 cents now.

I used 5w40HD in my aftermarket turbo'd '96 Miata with great results (backed by UOA). Normally, I was having to change M1, PP, and RedLine at 3k miles on my stock motor. When the hydraulic lash adjusters on Miatas start making noise, it's time to change the oil. Search the Miata forums and you'll find TONS of info on the subject. The RLI made it 5k miles before I got any noise...and that was AFTER boost and a LOT of hard racing. Then I tried M1, RedLine, and PP again...same thing. I used 10w40 PP, 10w40 RedLine (which is recommended by the manufacturer of the turbo kit for turbo and S/C Miatas) and I even used a mix of 0w40 and 15w50 M1 to thicken it up to see if I could extend the OCI at all, but it never failed, at around 3k miles, noisey HLA's until I'd change the oil. I did a lot of experimentation, but RLI was the only oil that held up. I also used Auto-RX at 80k miles (just before the turbo went on) and am using it now at at 103k miles. After this, I feel that RLI is all I'll really need for lubrication and cleanliness. Our '01 WS6 (76,XXX mi.) is about to receive an Auto-RX treatment and then will go on RLI for life. For M1 & PP at $20/gallon, RedLine at $33/gallon, and RLI at $32/gallon, I feel that the extended OCI's, engine protection, and use of HOBS (renewable resources!) with RLI's products is an amazing deal, AND an enviornmentaly responsible choice. More and more government, industrial, and private agencies/companies are picking up on and and using RLI. Is it any wonder? I've seen the results personally after experimenting with MANY concoctions and am VERY impressed with RLI :), and VERY disappointed with some big name companies \:\( . I love RLI and won't ever look back. I'm a firm believer in RLI.


Edited by Steve27 (06/16/08 06:11 PM)

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#1173821 - 06/16/08 06:11 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: Steve27]
Tempest Offline


Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 10611
Loc: Las Vegas NV
 Quote:
When the hydraulic lash adjusters on Miatas start making noise, it's time to change the oil.

What viscosity drop are you getting?
_________________________
“Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.” --- Henry Rosovsky

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#1173839 - 06/16/08 06:31 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: Tempest]
Steve27 Offline


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 8
Loc: USA
I don't have any UOA's to speak of to show viscosity drop on the M1, PP, or RedLine, but, if I'd drain a little and add some fresh oil, the noisey HLA's would go away...for a little while, but not very long. But that way, I'm having to add more oil when the RLI can make it in one OCI. It's INCREDIBLY annoying to pay that much for OTC syns and have to change them at dino intervals, or drain and add to replenish the add pack and regain vis, plus, it's more work that I have to do. This is a VERY common problem with Miatas. Like I said, one of those things that is talked about A LOT and is the one annoying thing about the car. Mazda even wrote bulletins about the noisey HLA's. The easy fix? Change the oil. Miatas tend to generate a lot of engine heat and they KILL oil vis. On the other hand, I've heard that SOME people can go 7k miles without a hitch. The "typical" Miata driver that I've seen changes the oil at 3-5k, syn or dino, due to vis breakdown and the resulting noisely HLA's. I can't remember what the 5w40HD vis ended up at (I will have to look a Terry's email to get the numbers exact) at just over 5k miles turbo'd with HARD racing and some fuel dilution. I will let you know what the numbers were.

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#1173884 - 06/16/08 07:39 PM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: Tempest]
JohnBrowning Offline


Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 9448
Loc: USA
Crew 219 I am biased in that I like my daily drivers to be built to run on rather mundane oil. I like them to be built so as not to worry about them self destructing when driven hard. So yes I am biased toward dull lack luster durable as a crafttsman wrench Toyotas for my daily drivers. I used to race and play around a lot with high performance vechiles. In fact I owned my own shop for a while doing tuneing work on imports long before that was cool or trendy! I never expected my performance vechiles to be as durable and reliable as my daily drivers! I have never worried about breaking a toy or wearing one out since rebuilding an engine is not a big deal to me. In my mind engine are built to be rebuilt once you have worn them out buy haveing way to much fun with them! In fact normaly when I get tired of my daily drivers I will normaly rebuild them for raceing of some sort. It might be SCCA AutoCross or drifting or road raceing or ice raceing. If it is a truck I might build it to rock crawl or I might rig it to hit the san dunes. I am an enthusist but I am not afraid or wearing an engine out any more then I fear wearing my brakes out! They wear that is just a function of useing them! That is why their are some that keep their Corvettes on a trailer and other that take them out and drive them daily and take them to the track! I am the latter not the former. In fact if money was no onject I would have a collection much like Jay Leno's and just like Jay I would be driveing them as often as I could! If I wore one out no problem just rebuild it and start all over again! I can tell you this much I know I do not want an Audi now not if they can not controll their fuel enough to ensure long life with reasonable oil change interval with OTC oils. In fact I avoid most European cars right now since so many of them need a special oil inorder to not self destruct or maintain their warranty. In my mind if an engine needs extra ordinary oil that is not easy to find in order to function the manufacture has failed me as a customer buy shortchangeing me in one of three area's 1)materials,2)Surface finish,3)design! So either the fuel dilotion is not a durability issue in Audi's eyes or they just do not care wich is it? Either way it is not the mark of excellences I expect for a vechile costing over $40,000 to strive for.

Here is the real kicker. The reason my $17,900 Camry kicks most other vechiles arse in UOA is because it use's the same materials,production methods and surface finish's that a $200,000 dollar exoctic does in it's engine even though it makes something lowly like 145HP. In fact the Z06 just recently caught up with my elcheapo Camry's engine material! That my friend is why I can run any SM 5W30 and get great UOA or M1 for 10,000 miles on my 3.9 quart sump and get single digit wear numbers!

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#1174168 - 06/17/08 07:41 AM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: JohnBrowning]
Steve27 Offline


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 8
Loc: USA
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not just a problem with one manufacturer getting fuel dilution, for whatever reason that may be. Most of the vehicles I've seen that are geared toward performance tend to have more fuel dilution than those geared toward being gas sipping DD's, the case between the RS4 and your Yota. And while Audi's are great DD's, just like Yota's, they are also geared toward performance, especially the "S" and "RS" models, the latter being the one that was teseted. So if you take a high performance car and drive it under somewhat harsh conditions, yes, I would fully expect fuel dilution and would be incredibly astounded if you found none. Heck, take the cap off the dry sump of my brother in law's C6 Z06 and you can smell fuel. And no, it's not just his, they're all that way. So does it fuel dilute? Yes. Is it a bad vehicle? No. You get what you pay for, and for that amount of money, you get awesome performance, luxury, and a beautiful car. When you're throwing down that much money on a car, I don't think anyone that's an enthusiast is going to pour in OTC SM dino. They're going to use something like RLI. Using a premium synthetic like RLI then takes care of any fuel dilution you may get. The bottom line is, either you want to spend $18k on a car and get a 145HP gas sipping DD, or you want to spend $60k+ on a luxury performance car and get a little fuel dilution for the performance aspect, but just spend an extra $20 every 8-10k miles (a small price to pay for the mileage. I spend more on beer in a month) for a premium synthetic. BTW, I do plan to buy an Audi in the somewhat near future.

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#1174191 - 06/17/08 08:25 AM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: Steve27]
RI_RS4 Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 1175
Loc: Rhode Island
John

You make total sense and I respect your opinion John. It's definitely well thought out.

It's not a matter of whether Audi can control the richness of the engine appropriately. With wideband O2 sensors, precise control of the high pressure fuel rail and injectors, all under ECU direction, they have extremely good mixture control. It's the direct injection itself that seems to be causing increased dilution. This is no different than what happened with diesel engines, requiring new oils and fuel formulations to be developed. Unfortunately, since all manufacturers are striving for better fuel economy and emissions, and direct injection improves fuel economy by 5-10% over manifold injection, all will eventually be forced to go to direct injection, and will most likely experience higher fuel levels in the oil, unless some new direct injection design tricks are developed.

My reason for going with an Audi is simple. Quattro is far and away the best overall performing AWD package out there. My RS4 performed as well as most high performance sport cars on the track in the dry, but in the wet, absolutely nothing even comes close. There is nothing like driving the track at Watkins Glen in the rain. On the street, this translates into increased driving confidence and a huge safety factor.

We really do not know what life to expect out of these FSI engines, since they've not been out long enough. It may very well be that Audi has done their engineering right and have accommodated fuel dilution in their engine bearing and material design. It is certainly what they claim in my correspondence with them when they say that fuel dilution is not an issue. All I know is that in an all aluminum engine design, I see Fe wear that is correlated with fuel dilution, and that it can be controlled with RLI oil at no additional cost over approved oils. That is enough for me to stay with RLI. I've done so in the RS4, and am doing so in my A6 3.2L V6 FSI engine, too.

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#1174264 - 06/17/08 10:30 AM Re: RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update [Re: RI_RS4]
SubLGT Offline


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 2513
Loc: Idaho
 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
............Unfortunately, since all manufacturers are striving for better fuel economy and emissions, and direct injection improves fuel economy by 5-10% over manifold injection, all will eventually be forced to go to direct injection, and will most likely experience higher fuel levels in the oil, unless some new direct injection design tricks are developed. ...........


Surprisingly, the upcoming GF-5 specs, from what I have seen, do not address the challenges of fuel dilution. Given the number of manufacturers who have announced their intention to use direct injection on their engines, you would think ILSAC would be addressing this issue. Maybe we have to wait for GF-6.

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