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#1140441 - 04/30/08 09:56 AM TBN and Noack Volatility question
FrankN4 Offline


Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1093
Loc: Kentucky
If you found an oil whose specs you really liked but it had a low TBN (8) and a high Noack Volatility (8.7) would that just mean you changed the oil more often or would there be other problems. The cSt's were geat, VI great, pour point great, etc.

Thanks to all
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#1140482 - 04/30/08 11:11 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: FrankN4]
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 13124
Loc: By Detroit
Are you looking at a passenger car oil or a heavy duty oil?

TBN of 8 is reasonable for passenger car oil

NOACK of 8.7 is very good.


For passenger car or light truck I would think this oil can run min 5000 mile OCIs. Need to know vehicle and driving types (short trip, long trip, towing, miles on engine, etc).
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#1140490 - 04/30/08 11:25 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: TallPaul]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
Yeah, Frank. Don't hold back now. Give us the full story here. None of this sprinkling crumbs around Give it to us, baby - ah-ha ah-ha
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#1140690 - 04/30/08 03:34 PM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: Gary Allan]
FrankN4 Offline


Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1093
Loc: Kentucky
OK

I have a 2008 Chevrolet Silverado short bed pickup. It has a 4.3L V6 engine and 4 speed automatic. It has all the bells, whistles, and sound systems, and will be used as a family car but just happens to be a pickup because I live way out in the country at my retirement home. The truck will go to town and back about 4 times a week, 9 miles round trip. It will make an occassional trip to Lowe's for seed, fertilizer, treated timbers for ground effects and that sort of stuff. Round trip of 43 miles.

It will make two trips a year to Myrtle Beach SC,(700 miles RT) two trips a year to Fredericksburg, VA,(950 miles RT) 3 or 4 trips a year to Cherokee, NC,(300 miles RT) loaded with an in bed camper(I quit towing), about 4 trips a year to Blacksburg, VA(502 miles RT) and about 4 trips a year to Lexington, KY(172 miles RT)

The engine will never exceed 3000 RPM. It will spend the majority of its life between 1500 and 2200 RPM. It will get Shell or Chevron 89 octane gasoline with no alcohol as long as that is available.

The truck now has 276 total miles. At 1000 miles I will change the oil, oil filter, air filter, transmission fluid and filter, I will drain the differential and fill with a synthetic EP 75W-110 fluid. The oil and filter will get changed between 3000 and 4000 miles. Air filter will get changed every 6,000 miles, fuel filter about every 10,000 miles, transmission fluid and filter and the differential every 25,000 miles.

The truck this one is replacing is a 1986 Toyota. It was maintained the same way except oil and filter was exactly 3000 miles. It is now just a little shy of 300,000 miles. It has no mechanical noise, doesen't use a drop of oil between changes, and gets 26-28 MPG. It has had only 20W-50, 5W-50, and 15W-50 synthetic oil.

I want the Silverado to take me all the way to Purgatory. The oils I am considering are Mobil 1 0W-40 Eurpoean with TBN of 11.3 and Noack of 6.2, Amsoil 5W-40 European with TBN of 8.0 and Noack of 8.7, Amsoil 10W-30 ATM with TBN of 12.2 and noack of 5.4, and good ole Mobil 1 15W-50 with TBN of 11.7 and Noack of 6.4.

Since 1990 I have used only Mobil 1 15W-50 in an 86 toyota 4 cyl, 88 VW with 4 cyl engine, 90 Dodge with 4 cyl engine, 94 Chevrolet Celebrity with a V6 engine, 99 Chevrolet Cavalier with 4 cyl engine(I still use this car daily with 200,000+ miles)99 Kia Rio with 4 cyl engine(daughter's college car) The worse of the lot was the Dodge which had the head crack at the intake manifold at about 120,000 miles.

I have learned so much from this forum in the last few days. I have about 51 years experience with motorcycles and cars. I have an uncle, by marriage, that was a chemical engineer with the Ashland Oil and Refinign company near Kenova, WV. I have and do speak with an engineer for an American automobile company that is working on a project for high speed diesel engines. From what I have learned here, from my talking with chemical engineers and mechanical engineers, and from 50 years experience, I am moved toward the Amsoil 5W-40 European or the Mobil 1 0W-40 Eurppean with the Amsoil 10W-30 ATM coming up second. If the Amsoil had a higher TBN and a lower Noack, I would order it this evening.

I want to learn as much as I can as I find this fascinating.

By the way, my hobbies are mountain stream trout fishing and changing oil. I don't bowl, golf, go to ball games or spend money on other recreational activities :^)

Thanks to all
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Actually, I never was as good as I used to be.

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#1140783 - 04/30/08 04:57 PM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: FrankN4]
INDYMAC Offline


Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2338
Loc: Magnolia, TX
If it were my chariot to Purgatory, I think the AMSOIL ATM would grease the skids for you nicely! The AMSOIL warranty would be nice to fall back on if you do have any oil related problems too.
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#1140820 - 04/30/08 05:37 PM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: INDYMAC]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
That's some intense maintenance schedule you have there. It should easily carry you to the great beyond ..camper included.
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#1140903 - 04/30/08 07:01 PM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: FrankN4]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 5109
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
FrankN4 - As you have had a good user experience with M1 products you should consider using M1 TDT 5w-40 or Delvac 1 5w-40 - both will satisfy your TBN or Noack Volatility needs

M1 0w-40 is of the same ilk and has an excellent engine manufacturer and end user reputation


Edited by Doug Hillary (04/30/08 07:02 PM)
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Doug

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#1141149 - 05/01/08 12:17 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: Doug Hillary]
bruce381 Offline


Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3327
Loc: Millbrae, CA
what Doug says

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#1141236 - 05/01/08 06:50 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: bruce381]
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 13124
Loc: By Detroit
I won't mess with what Bruce and Doug say on the motor oil. If Bruce told me a certain oil to run, I'd run it.

As for the tranny and diffy, I'd run Redline. With Redline you can go longer on the tranny change interval, probably what the book says, but could do partial changes more often with filter change. In my opinion, Redline is the way to make an auto tranny go the distance. It won't burn. It will take all the abuse you can give it.

Does your truck have a towing selector? If it doesn't lock out OD, it should stiffen the shifting, which usually is a good thing for reduced tranny wear as soft shifting is usually acheived by slippage.

Redline also makes power steering fluid.

Go Mobil 1 synthetic for grease.

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#1141617 - 05/01/08 02:30 PM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: TallPaul]
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 14161
Loc: Canada
I'm with INDYMAC - I'd go with the ATM 10W-30. For me it seems to be about the best all-round 10W-30 you can get...GM is really, really 'fussy' about people not using ANYTHING other than 30-weights in their engines, so I'd do that. I know you've had a lot of success with non-spec oils, but I still think the ATM would meet all your needs and keep you closer to the best MPG's for that vehicle....
_________________________
2010 Kia Soul 2U - 2.0L I-4, auto; 114k miles.
5W/10W-30 frankenblend; OEM Kia filter.

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#4388262 - 04/25/17 04:02 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: FrankN4]
Dave_PPE Offline


Registered: 08/30/16
Posts: 1
Loc: Australia
Hi, I think there are heaps of misunderstanding about Total Base Number (TBN). I have been working for lubricants design and development for a few years time. TBN is a cheap way to attack oxidized oil . TBN, is extra "base" ingredients thats only used when oil anti-oxidation capability goes to zero. When gasoline or diesel (typically sulphur) content dissolve into engine oil, it causes an acidic solution. It requires oil itself to tackle these impurities (anti oxidation) to neutralizes these substances. A high TBN oil will cause many problems, typically are environmental problems, high SAPS. If you notice recent low SAPS oil all have very low TBN, as low as 2.2 . If you plan to run your oil up to 30,000 miles for each oil change, then consider high TBN. If you are changing your oil using a more reasonable mileage (say 10,000 miles), then high TBN is not something you should consider

The concept of noack is true, the lower the better. The Winter (W) temperature rating in modern SAE J300 defined standard oils, W value higher, the noack volatility will go lower. High W oil will cause higher fuel consumption, as most of the engine oil works under 100 celcius under normal driving/cruising conditions. Hope this helps.
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#4388303 - 04/25/17 06:29 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: FrankN4]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 4461
Loc: Texas/International
Mobil 1 TDT 5w40. On that year model you already use Dex VI - so many good offerings - some have been finding great deals on Havoline synthetic - I'd put a pan drain plug in with an aftermarket spin on filter and that becomes clean/easy.
Gears? Amsoil, Delvac 1, Redline are all top shelf ...
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2014 Fusion Hybrid
2013 Cruze RS 1.4T
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#4389140 - 04/26/17 06:53 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: Dave_PPE]
zeng Offline


Registered: 09/01/15
Posts: 1794
Loc: Malaysia
Originally Posted By: Dave_PPE
Hi, I think there are heaps of misunderstanding about Total Base Number (TBN). I have been working for lubricants design and development for a few years time. TBN is a cheap way to attack oxidized oil . TBN, is extra "base" ingredients thats only used when oil anti-oxidation capability goes to zero. When gasoline or diesel (typically sulphur) content dissolve into engine oil, it causes an acidic solution. It requires oil itself to tackle these impurities (anti oxidation) to neutralizes these substances. A high TBN oil will cause many problems, typically are environmental problems, high SAPS. If you notice recent low SAPS oil all have very low TBN, as low as 2.2 . If you plan to run your oil up to 30,000 miles for each oil change, then consider high TBN. If you are changing your oil using a more reasonable mileage (say 10,000 miles), then high TBN is not something you should consider

The concept of noack is true, the lower the better. The Winter (W) temperature rating in modern SAE J300 defined standard oils, W value higher, the noack volatility will go lower. High W oil will cause higher fuel consumption, as most of the engine oil works under 100 celcius under normal driving/cruising conditions. Hope this helps.

Interesting take from you that appears in alignment with UOA's here , and .......
welcome

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#4389203 - 04/26/17 08:15 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: Dave_PPE]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 8399
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Dave_PPE
Hi, I think there are heaps of misunderstanding about Total Base Number (TBN). I have been working for lubricants design and development for a few years time. TBN is a cheap way to attack oxidized oil . TBN, is extra "base" ingredients thats only used when oil anti-oxidation capability goes to zero. When gasoline or diesel (typically sulphur) content dissolve into engine oil, it causes an acidic solution. It requires oil itself to tackle these impurities (anti oxidation) to neutralizes these substances. A high TBN oil will cause many problems, typically are environmental problems, high SAPS. If you notice recent low SAPS oil all have very low TBN, as low as 2.2 . If you plan to run your oil up to 30,000 miles for each oil change, then consider high TBN. If you are changing your oil using a more reasonable mileage (say 10,000 miles), then high TBN is not something you should consider


I don't understand your statement highlighted above. I used to run oil analysis in college, and TBN is the total ability of an oil to neutralize acid. When it goes to zero it goes to zero, correct? There is no remaining ability of the oil to neutralize any acid. We tested it through a titration of the oil and the indicator we used reflected a permanent change in the pH of the oil (actually the water in the oil). Today there are other methods but still it relies on the basic additives of the oil to neutralize acid, is there some other method of neutralization? Aren't the alkali additives still amines of some sort? That's why TBN depletion isn't always linear since an amine is a weak base.

And those sulfur compounds do affect the pH but only in the presence of water. Without water in the oil pH is meaningless.
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1996 Honda Accord, 243K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 381K
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#4390936 - 04/28/17 03:56 AM Re: TBN and Noack Volatility question [Re: kschachn]
weasley Offline


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 669
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Dave_PPE
Hi, I think there are heaps of misunderstanding about Total Base Number (TBN). I have been working for lubricants design and development for a few years time. TBN is a cheap way to attack oxidized oil . TBN, is extra "base" ingredients thats only used when oil anti-oxidation capability goes to zero. When gasoline or diesel (typically sulphur) content dissolve into engine oil, it causes an acidic solution. It requires oil itself to tackle these impurities (anti oxidation) to neutralizes these substances. A high TBN oil will cause many problems, typically are environmental problems, high SAPS. If you notice recent low SAPS oil all have very low TBN, as low as 2.2 . If you plan to run your oil up to 30,000 miles for each oil change, then consider high TBN. If you are changing your oil using a more reasonable mileage (say 10,000 miles), then high TBN is not something you should consider


This is not really right. TBN is not there to cover for the antioxidant. The antioxidant's job is not to neutralise acid either. The antioxidant is there to prevent oxidation in the first place, hence reducing the formation of acidic species. These are the species formed by oxidation of the oil, usually the base oil - the antioxidant interrupts the oxidation reaction and is therefore preventative and proactive, rather than being an acid-neutraliser, which is reactive and symptomatic.

I did a big post on TBN a while back which I won't rewrite here.

Also, high SAPS is not, in itself, an environmental issue - exhaust ash emissions are tiny compared to the real issues (NOx, PM). Low SAPS oils are only required because of exhaust treatment devices put in place to mitigate engine emissions, specifically DPFs and to some extent TWCs and SCR. And any low SAPS oil I've seen has a TBN way higher than 2.2! That's used oil territory. Longest OEM oil drain intervals are 30,000 km, so about 18,000 miles, under perfect conditions. And these are achieved using the OEM's 'long life' specification oils, which are generally a mid-SAPS type (BMW LL-04, VW 504 00/507 00, MB 229.51 etc).
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