Redline Oil Ester Content

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TallPaul

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It was once (several months ago?) posted at this site (and I have searched for hours and can't find it) an educated guesstimate that Redline would have about 80% ester. In discussing the oil with Dave at Redline I found out that ester is not the only base oil in Redline (as has been pointed out here before). Dave did indicate that the ester was the greater component of the base oil. So I would guesstimate about 50% ester, maybe 55%, for the motor oil.

But what about that earlier estimate of 80%? Was that about the Redline racing oil?
dunno.gif


I would be curious to know the approximte ester content of both the Redline motor oil and of the racing oil.
 
I thought I read on here that it was around 65% or more. Your right though, their is some PAO in with it. Dave told me that the POE is the "primary" basestock used in Redline.
 
Wow, Never heard the 80% comment. I was thinking that they were some where between 40%-60% ester. I am not a chemist by any strech of the imagination but it seems to me that 80% would be too much! The cost of the oil would have to much higher if it was that high in ester content. From what I understand most other companys use less then 15% ester content on average not counting additive package. THe exceptions are the botique oils, Delvac-1 @26% and really high dollar European stuff.

The only way I could imagine it haveing 80% ester content would be if they were useing old school (Amsoil,NEO and Penzoil)diesters base oil in conjuction with their TPE and PAO base stocks. Remember these guys are blenders so they have to buy everything at market price!

I always figured it Redline's base stock was 60% PAO and 40% TPE. If Dave said that ester content makes up the majority of the base stock it could be the other way around 60% TPE and 40%PAO.

Anyone have any ideas why Redline works so well when mixed with other oils? So far the M1 Redline blends have turned out great! Do we know think that the ester content might be too high or do we still think that it is the beefy additive package?
 
quote:
Anyone have any ideas why Redline works so well when mixed with other oils? So far the M1 Redline blends have turned out great! Do we know think that the ester content might be too high or do we still think that it is the beefy additive package?
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Thats the million dollar question. Scavening, Moly or type of esters being used? Don't know. Other Ester oils don't scavenge. Other oils have Moly, but not as much as RL. No clue.
 
quote:
Originally posted by buster:

quote:
Anyone have any ideas why Redline works so well when mixed with other oils? So far the M1 Redline blends have turned out great! Do we know think that the ester content might be too high or do we still think that it is the beefy additive package?
Click to expand...
Thats the million dollar question. Scavening, Moly or type of esters being used? Don't know. Other Ester oils don't scavenge. Other oils have Moly, but not as much as RL. No clue.
Click to expand...
Yep, a few more great UOAs with this combination and I might become a believer too. 4 qts of M1 and 1 qt of RL is still $5/qt oil to boot. Wonder what Terry would say about this combination?
 
couldn't you add esters to M1 just by a maentenance dose of auto-rx, rather than blending in one quart of redline?
 
Ross, different types of esters. Redline is synthetic esters Rx is natural esters. Their uses are totaly different and the redline cleaning affect is positive byproduct. Rx cleans byb design.

One quart of Redline is going to give you more volume of esters at $5 dollars they you would ever get in a $5 dollar dosage of Rx!

Ross, If you add a quart or two of Redline you will enhance HTHS, high temp stability, NOAK, AW,EP,AO propertys of the oil. Rx is going to bias towards cleaning! If your engine is already clean I think that the Redline as a "correction" fluid might have more merit. If you need to clean or maintain Rx repair to seals then RX is the way to go!

Buster, Here goes an idea to test the ester v.s. additive situation. We know that Delvac-1 not the Truck SUV oil has around 26% ester content. If we added 20% Redline to Delvac-1 and got increased wear then it would almost have to be ester content and not moly. I say this because 20% Redline to Delvac-1 would not raise any of the additive especialy moly to very high levels at all. It raise the ester content significantly especialy if Redline is greater 50% esters!

Another thing to consider is that according to Carpy Lubrizol now has an additive package that has amoungst other things 300PPM of Moly. That is getting awfuly close to Redline Moly levels. Seems unlikely that LZ would add anything to increase wear????
 
If we could get ahold of the MSDS it might shed some light, but they don't seem to be posted at the Redline site.
 
M1 is a top class road oil But apparantly is esterless, so adding esters from Redline may make it a better oil but more expensive.
The following are top class race oils
Silkolene 20%+ Diesters and balance in PAO.
Motul 300V 20%+ Diester and Polyolester blend with balance in PAO.

The HTHS improves as you add esters and cost increases, so nothing new, you pay for performance. I doubt M1 or Castrol race oils are the same as road oils but Castrol have confirmed that their Synths contain esters.
 
This direct quote from the official Redline website seems to indicate that they use 100 percent ester basestock:

"Rather than cutting costs by blending into polyalphaolefin base stock for its motor oil, Red Line Oil only uses superior poly ester-based products..."

But on closer examination, all this says is the main base stock is not PAO. They could still use an ester product that includes some PAO.
 
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:

Another thing to consider is that according to Carpy Lubrizol now has an additive package that has amoungst other things 300PPM of Moly. That is getting awfuly close to Redline Moly levels. Seems unlikely that LZ would add anything to increase wear???? [/QUOTE

Lubrizol just makes the add packs . They cater more to the OTC blenders it seems and these low cost price point oils do not use the same ester Redline does .
Just to add , all these moly's are not identical in make-up . There are many available for use these days vs say 4 years back .

For more info go to Ethyl.com and you will see warnings about possible corrosion when some of their products are used with certain base oils . They flat state that particular point so obviously they know or have done at least some minor testing with different base oils .

I don't want a finicky oil . I want an oil that will perform under a wide range of conditions .

More moly does not all times make a better formulated oil for the masses .
Click to expand...
 
ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. I found this statement and wondered if this type of ester is the only type used in automotive oils.
smile.gif
Or if this is a true statement at all.
 
quote:
Originally posted by railball:
ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. I found this statement and wondered if this type of ester is the only type used in automotive oils.
smile.gif
Or if this is a true statement at all.
Click to expand...
As noted..there are different classes of Esters. And I am no chemist. But in general esters are polar and do tend to "cling" to metals better.
 
quote:
Originally posted by MGBV8:
M1 is a top class road oil But apparantly is esterless, so adding esters from Redline may make it a better oil but more expensive.
Click to expand...
Mobil 1 is not "esterless".

Depending on which Mobil 1 you purchase, there is some percentage of polyolester blend stock added to the polyalphaolefin base stock. I believe the highest percentage is in the Delvac 1/Mobil 1 SUV oil.

At a practical level under real world conditions you can't slip a piece of paper between Mobil 1 with its additive package and the results of the comparable Motul, Red Line, Silkolene, or other boutique or European motor oil.

Automobile engines are not turbines.
 
Mickey

I gather there was an announcement by GeorgeCLS’s last year that the newest formulation of Mobil 1 (SuperSyn) did not contain any esters.

Oilmansi has also confirmed M1 is esterless.

However, M1 packaging in UK states 3 Synthetics are used.

If we assume 2 are PAO and AN then what is the third Super PAO, GIII! or esters?

Compared to known ester based oils Redline, Motul 300V and Silkolene the HTHS of M1 is not as high.

As ester based oils tend to be used as race oils, then is there any advantage in using them for a road car not used in extreme circumstances? In general UOAs do not suggest there is a clear advantage of using esters, despite the fact that they "cling" which should be useful on start up.

I therefore agree with your comment:
At a practical level under real world conditions you can't slip a piece of paper between Mobil 1 with its additive package and the results of the comparable Motul, Red Line, Silkolene, or other boutique or European motor oil.

IMO for road applications its type of driving and driving style that has more influence over wear rather than blend of synthetic oil!
 
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Wow, Never heard the 80% comment. I was thinking that they were some where between 40%-60% ester. I am not a chemist by any strech of the imagination but it seems to me that 80% would be too much! The cost of the oil would have to much higher if it was that high in ester content. From what I understand most other companys use less then 15% ester content on average not counting additive package. THe exceptions are the botique oils, Delvac-1 @26% and really high dollar European stuff.

The only way I could imagine it haveing 80% ester content would be if they were useing old school (Amsoil,NEO and Penzoil)diesters base oil in conjuction with their TPE and PAO base stocks. Remember these guys are blenders so they have to buy everything at market price!

I always figured it Redline's base stock was 60% PAO and 40% TPE. If Dave said that ester content makes up the majority of the base stock it could be the other way around 60% TPE and 40%PAO.

Anyone have any ideas why Redline works so well when mixed with other oils? So far the M1 Redline blends have turned out great! Do we know think that the ester content might be too high or do we still think that it is the beefy additive package?
Click to expand...
my thinking behind using a Mobil1/Redline brew (4 quarts Mobil1 to 1 quart Redline) was to get the best of both worlds. Beef up the additive package in Mobil1 by getting more of Redline's Moly, and to take advantage of the Boron in Mobil1 which is lacking in Redline. I was also beginning to wonder if Redline was a bit reactive with some bearing materials (totally unfounded but just a thought I had at the time)

It has worked well for me, plus it is still very affordable for short drains which my vehicle requires under warranty. I like it, and Dave at Redline thought it was fine to mix the two oils.
 
quote:
Originally posted by MGBV8:
I gather there was an announcement by GeorgeCLS’s last year that the newest formulation of Mobil 1 (SuperSyn) did not contain any esters.

Oilmansi has also confirmed M1 is esterless.
Click to expand...
You may want to confirm this with ExxonMobil.

While Mobil has been using alkylated naphthalene, a Group V stock, as a blend stock, it continues to add an ester for seal swell.

The alkylated napthalene resists heat and oxidation better than mineral oil, PAO, or diester, is hydrolytically stable unlike polyolester, has good additive solvency, and is more elastomer compatibile than esters.

However, the napthalene complements rather than replaces the esters.

ExxonMobil manufactures polyalphaolefins, esters, alkylated naphthalene, and lube oil additives - so it has a wide range of base and blend stocks available.

I believe the high in the Mobil 1 line is the 5W-40 SUV formula, aka Delvac 1, which is roughly 25% polyolester.
 
Originally Posted by Mickey_M
quote:
Originally posted by MGBV8:
I gather there was an announcement by GeorgeCLS�s last year that the newest formulation of Mobil 1 (SuperSyn) did not contain any esters.

Oilmansi has also confirmed M1 is esterless.
Click to expand...
You may want to confirm this with ExxonMobil.

While Mobil has been using alkylated naphthalene, a Group V stock, as a blend stock, it continues to add an ester for seal swell.

The alkylated napthalene resists heat and oxidation better than mineral oil, PAO, or diester, is hydrolytically stable unlike polyolester, has good additive solvency, and is more elastomer compatibile than esters.


However, the napthalene complements rather than replaces the esters.

ExxonMobil manufactures polyalphaolefins, esters, alkylated naphthalene, and lube oil additives - so it has a wide range of base and blend stocks available.

I believe the high in the Mobil 1 line is the 5W-40 SUV formula, aka Delvac 1, which is roughly 25% polyolester.


What are your thoughts on 5w-30 Mobil 1 ESP?
 
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